When can we expect the next version of Raspberry pi?


 
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by mountain15 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:33 am
Will they update the models anytime soon?
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by rpdom » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:09 am
I wouldn't expect anything other than very minor design changes for the next few years.
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by Heater » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:29 am
mountain15,

Why would they? And why do you need to know?

I believe it's it's important that the Pi remain mostly the same for some long time.

The Foundation wants to be getting on with it's educational mission not spending its resources building cheap computers for everyone.

It's very beneficial for the "community", over a million users and growing, to have exactly the same kit. That way we all have the same experience and advice offered, here for example, will work for others rather than have them get hung up on some annoying differences in platform. Standardization is good in this way.
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by 0xFF » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:51 am
Proper question is "when RPi will be really open" ;-)
It is more important for community to have full hardware specification than yet another ARM-based black box.

Best regards
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by Jim Manley » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:01 am
The next version of the Pi will be available tomorrow from all current distributors as the Model A and Model B. The former will have 256 MB of RAM, one USB port, and no Ethernet, and the latter will have 512 MB of RAM, two USB ports, and a 100 Mbps Ethernet port. Both models will have a Broadcom BCM2835 system-on-a-chip (SoC) with an ARM CPU with an integrated hardware floating-point unit (FPU) operating at 700 MHz (overclockable from 800 MHz to upwards of 1 GHz) and a VideoCore IV graphics processing unit (GPU) running at 250 MHz. The two models will also have an SD card interface, 1080p HDMI at 30 frames per second (with 5.1 channel digital audio) and composite video output, a 3.5 mm stereo audio output, a GPIO interface, a Camera Serial Interface (CSI), a Display Serial interface (DSI), an I²C bus, an SPI bus with two chip selects, and an I²S audio interface. The Model A will cost $25 and the Model B will cost $35, with taxes, shipping, manhandling, etc., being additional costs. A wide variety of peripherals and accessories will also be available at extra cost.

As former Mets baseball catcher Yogi Berra would say, "It's deja vu all over again." :roll:
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by Heater » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:09 am
0xFF,

You just had to go there didn't you:)

To flog a dead horse to more dead than a dead horse has ever been before:

As far as I can tell the entire Linux operating system that runs in the Pi is open. Drivers and all. As open as an open thing can be.

The GPU has firmware that get's things booted and does GPU stuff.

As far as I am concerned that is the hardware. As surely as if that firmware were cast into the very silicon of the GPU itself.

In fact it turns out that if that firmware were cast into the very silicon of the GPU then the Free Software Foundation would declare the whole thing as "open" or should I say "free", whatever.

Which seems a bit of an odd stance to me.

Anyway no one expects to get the source of the firmware in their USB serial adapters, WIFI dongles and a host of other devices. Why fuss about the GPU firmware so much.
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by Joe Schmoe » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:15 am
Anyway no one expects to get the source of the firmware in their USB serial adapters, WIFI dongles and a host of other devices. Why fuss about the GPU firmware so much.


While I suppose some people may actually worry about this for religious and/or political reasons, the real reason is that until the GPU is accessible to Linux programmers, it is more or less useless. Every time we hear words to the effect of "Oh, that doesn't use the GPU, it has to be done in software (ARM), ...", we are reminded of the fact that unless/until it is opened up, the GPU is actually more of a liability than an asset.

I.e., it's not really accurate (fair) to rave about how powerful the GPU is (24 gigaflops or whatever) if it can't be used (for most things). And by 'used', I mean, of course, used to its full potential. I am well aware that it is used to some small extent in current setups.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

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by Jim Manley » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:20 am
0xFF wrote:Proper question is "when RPi will be really open" ;-)
It is more important for community to have full hardware specification than yet another ARM-based black box.

You want a full hardware specification for an SoC that you can't obtain without depositing enough capital for more devices than have been produced for even all of the Pi boards delivered so far. I suppose you have your own fab facility to do the production on your wishlist, too. I won't ask where you're going to hire the software engineers each with an average of well over ten years' experience doing low-level development in the multiple highly-specialized assembly languages that are unique to the Broadcom SoCs. :roll:
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by RaTTuS » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:21 am
0xFF wrote:Proper question is "when RPi will be really open" ;-)
It is more important for community to have full hardware specification than yet another ARM-based black box.

Best regards

if you want open then go and get yourself a
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by mikerr » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:29 am
Open or not, the GPU has OpenGLES / OpenMAX and video codecs provided

The real issue is the lack of software to utilise that (and the pain that a huge amount of software is OpenGL, not openGLES - so near yet so far),
but that's not the foundation's problem.


Next version of RPi ?

-probably a bump of the model A to 512MB once the RAM modules get cheaper.
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by Heater » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:35 am
Joe Schmoe,
While I suppose some people may actually worry about this for religious and/or political reasons

I do hope there are not many people like that. And I suspect there is not.

The desire for "free" software is much more practical than that. In fact Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation, was originally inspired by the fact that he wanted to change/improve some feature of a printer driver and was dismayed to find that the source was not available for him to do so. How practical can that be?

So, ultimately you are right. In an ideal world all the source for everything is available.

However, I'm very sure there is firmware for the GPU's from nvidia and the like. I don't see such a huge clamor for those to be made open source.
Why is the Pi singled out in this respect? Whoever is doing that shouting here might be advised to start with the desktop GPU's or phone/tab GPU's which are a much bigger fish to fry.

Perhaps someone could tell, me:

As far as I know the GPU has it's firmware and as far as I'm concerned that may as well be part of the GPU hardware.
Then on the Linux side we have a driver for interacting with that GPU/firmware combo.
That driver is all open source.
Presumably that driver has an interface that makes it possible to use all features of the GPU.

What is missing that makes the Raspi GPU "more or less useless."?

I can imaging that X might need a driver to talk to that GPU module, but is that not the same problem as on any other platform with nvidia or whatever?
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by Jim Manley » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:40 am
Joe Schmoe wrote:While I suppose some people may actually worry about this for religious and/or political reasons, the real reason is that until the GPU is accessible to Linux programmers, it is more or less useless. Every time we hear words to the effect of "Oh, that doesn't use the GPU, it has to be done in software (ARM), ...", we are reminded of the fact that unless/until it is opened up, the GPU is actually more of a liability than an asset. I.e., it's not really accurate (fair) to rave about how powerful the GPU is (24 gigaflops or whatever) if it can't be used (for most things). And by 'used', I mean, of course, used to its full potential. I am well aware that it is used to some small extent in current setups.

The problem isn't that the GPU isn't open for use in "most things", it's that "most things" can't make use of 2-D and 3-D hardware-accelerated graphics for which the GPU (the Graphics Processing Unit) is designed and optimized. The GPU runs OpenGL ES, OpenVG, and OpenMax just fine. There are only a handful of people on the forum who completely know how to develop software for those standards and it would behoove those who are griping about how "open" the GPU isn't to learn to use those tools first. It takes years to really become proficient with them, but there are enough examples available that can be copied, pasted, sliced, and diced that interesting snippets can be accomplished with a few days' worth of concentrated work.

Since OpenCL isn't going to be developed for the Pi, I'm hoping for the possibility of intermediate GPU matrix computations being made available at some distant point in the future so that we can get some additional utility out of the 12 32-bit integer and 12 80-bit floating-point parallel pipelines for more than just graphics, but that won't require any knowledge of the GPU internals, just a basic API for the gozintas and gozoutas.
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by Heater » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:49 am
As for the next version of the Pi how about: "there will be no next (major) version of the Pi"

Think I'm crazy, consider this:

The Rasperry Pi Foundation has an educational mission statement.

The Pi itself is only a stepping stone along that road. Required because there were no alternatives when Eben started out with the idea.

Since the Pi was released, and quite possibly stimulated by it's success, others have jumped on the band wagon and there are small cheap ARM boards popping up like weeds and getting cheaper all the time.

Looks like it's possible that the Foundation could launch a new super Pi after a year or two and find it is a flop because we are drowning in an ocean of ARM boards from all around the globe. It might be very hard to better them in price, performance or features. The Foundation would have wasted a lot of effort even trying. which is a diversion from their mission statement.

Is this a bad scenario. No. It would mean Eben and the Foundation had achieved their goal! Kids around the world would have cheap hackable machines to inspire them and learn from/with. As a bonus the Foundation does not have the hassle of having to make them:)
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by RaTTuS » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:55 am
Eban has said that he does not rule out a model C ....
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by ski522 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:57 am
The concept of the Pi as a cheap education device is certainly something they should stick with, so keep the current models around. But the hobbyist community shouldn't be ignored either and quad core Pi is something to consider as well fully understanding the price would be a bit more than current prices of current models, but I suspect 90% of hobbyist would be okay with that if it gives them great flexibility in doing what they want to do with a board like this.
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by LemmeFatale » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:28 am
ski522 wrote:But the hobbyist community shouldn't be ignored either

And it's not - by commercial outfits who specifically cater to it. The Raspberry Pi Foundation is an education-focussed charity, not an organisation to be leveraged in order to obtain cheap gear unsuited to their actual goals. ;)
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by 0xFF » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:46 am
mikerr wrote:Open or not, the GPU has OpenGLES / OpenMAX and video codecs provided

The real issue is the lack of software to utilise that (and the pain that a huge amount of software is OpenGL, not openGLES - so near yet so far),
but that's not the foundation's problem.


That's the point.
To use "motion" software - I need to grab motion branch for Pi.
When I connect a camera, I just expect /dev/vide0 device to use with V4L standard framework...

To use xbmc - I need to grab xbmc branch for Pi.
When I connect external USB-DAC, I just expect it will be usable.
But it won't - xbmc on RPi doesn't use standard ALSA framework to play sound.

I don't expect to get the all the SOC's secrets, but just enough get closer to "standards" we have in other x86 distros.
Many years ago I own a cheap USB camera and Sound Blaster Live! - both with closed source driver.
Thanks standard ALSA / V4L API it worked with minor issues for all software I have.
To use wifi dongle I just need "iwconfig" tool, if I can use it I don't care if driver is open or not ;-)
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by mikerr » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:04 pm
0xFF wrote:
mikerr wrote:Open or not, the GPU has OpenGLES / OpenMAX and video codecs provided

The real issue is the lack of software to utilise that (and the pain that a huge amount of software is OpenGL, not openGLES - so near yet so far),
but that's not the foundation's problem.


That's the point.
To use "motion" software - I need to grab motion branch for Pi.

When I connect a camera, I just expect /dev/vide0 device to use with V4L standard framework...

Bad example - standard motion is fine and I've been using it for over a year with a V4L logitech usb cam.

While there was a motion branch for the new raspicam, but there is also a user written V4L driver out there now.
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by 0xFF » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:49 pm
mikerr wrote:Bad example - standard motion is fine and I've been using it for over a year with a V4L logitech usb cam.

Yes, but with RPi camera module you can't use motion (without tweaking at least ;-) )
.
mikerr wrote:While there was a motion branch for the new raspicam, but there is also a user written V4L driver out there now.

I have seen the thread, good news. I don't know the details, but I hope it works and will be included in rpi firmware in near future.
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by jamesh » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:26 pm
0xFF wrote:
mikerr wrote:Bad example - standard motion is fine and I've been using it for over a year with a V4L logitech usb cam.

Yes, but with RPi camera module you can't use motion (without tweaking at least ;-) )
.
mikerr wrote:While there was a motion branch for the new raspicam, but there is also a user written V4L driver out there now.

I have seen the thread, good news. I don't know the details, but I hope it works and will be included in rpi firmware in near future.


I keep being drawn in this, but let me explain....

There are API's to use the majority of GPU features - they are OpenGLES2.0, OpenVG, OpenMAX, EGL, MMAL and the like. You also have dispmanx (which is under-documented sadly, but that's not because Broadcom won't release the docs, its that there simple are NO suitable docs to release).

So, ALL the features of the GPU that make it a GPU are available. SO you have access to HW acceleration for video, for 3D, for 2D, for the camera and for compositing. You just have to learn those API's. And that is a damn site easier AND MORE PORTABLE that learning the software that runs on the GPU>< I know this for a fact, as I have been trying to learn the software on the GPU for 5 years, and know only a fragment of it. Ther is nothing stopping LINUX proigrammers (as you put it) using those standard API's to write drivers and thelike that use acceleration.

BUT, there are some things that might need extra help to really work well, and the people writing those drivers are getting it from the Foundation and from Broadcom (Wayland, V4L for example). They are also getting paid by the Foundation to do it. BUT they are not writing code on the GPU - they are just using the existing API's, because writing code on the GPU's doesn't really give them anything more than they can already get from the standard API's. And the learning curve for the GPU code is vertical (see comment above)

There are perfectly adequate reasons why people want access to the GPU - to accelerate non-GPU tasks for example, but that is not what the Raspi was designed for, and those features are simple not available. Shame, but the use case for that is minuscule compared with everything you already have access to. I personally think people should try and make full use of what they already have (where are all the 3D apps?) before clamouring for low use case GPU access.
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by nigratruo » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:38 am
Why open hardware is important shows this example here:

http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/1700

this is about porting Android to the Raspberry Pi. This is a great project, as Android would be the perfect plattform for a lot of functions and there are tons and tons of apps available. And it would also put the power to build Android devices in our own hands, instead of having to shell out money for a closed cellphone that you need to unlock and free from its chains (who locked it for me when I payed for it? Did I pay for that lock too that is keeping me out? There starts the insane and nonsensical thought)

Now, the Android porting project is stalled, hasn't moved in over a year. Everybody is waiting and they announced ICS, which is more than a little outdated. Currently, there are no drivers for the hardware and as often, the company in charge of it is not in a hurry to provide them. If this were open hardware, we could write them ourselves. But as it is one company, this becomes the single point of failure.

I doubt that the Android porting project is ever going to happen, sadly.
So we need open hardware!
I love the Pi and have done tons of projects with it, but it seems to be stagnating (no improvements planed, we are after all not in the business of pleasing anyone else than the schools (which as current are not where the Pi has found most friends)
Is the Raspberry Pi foundation uncomfortable with new target audience that they did not forsee or plan for?

I see that there needs to be an improvement. The Pi is almost perfect, but I think we can all come up with some improvements.
And so there might be another device that will be very similar to the Pi, but cater more to the crowd of hundredthousands of people that bought it now.

And getting it cheap enough should not be a problem. I also don't see the use of a GPU in the chip, as I have not seen it used in anything so far. It might be a feature that is too closed source or out of place in such a low power device as the Pi, the same as a fancy high power stereo radio would be wasted on a 1947 Tractor, where having a fancy radio would be the least of your problems ;-)

I have run RaspXBMC and there it helps with video playback big time, not stutter at all.

But generally, the Pi is a little underpowered for a Media Center.
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by jamesh » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:00 am
nigratruo wrote:Why open hardware is important shows this example here:

http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/1700

this is about porting Android to the Raspberry Pi. This is a great project, as Android would be the perfect plattform for a lot of functions and there are tons and tons of apps available. And it would also put the power to build Android devices in our own hands, instead of having to shell out money for a closed cellphone that you need to unlock and free from its chains (who locked it for me when I payed for it? Did I pay for that lock too that is keeping me out? There starts the insane and nonsensical thought)

Now, the Android porting project is stalled, hasn't moved in over a year. Everybody is waiting and they announced ICS, which is more than a little outdated. Currently, there are no drivers for the hardware and as often, the company in charge of it is not in a hurry to provide them. If this were open hardware, we could write them ourselves. But as it is one company, this becomes the single point of failure.

I doubt that the Android porting project is ever going to happen, sadly.
So we need open hardware!
I love the Pi and have done tons of projects with it, but it seems to be stagnating (no improvements planed, we are after all not in the business of pleasing anyone else than the schools (which as current are not where the Pi has found most friends)
Is the Raspberry Pi foundation uncomfortable with new target audience that they did not forsee or plan for?

I see that there needs to be an improvement. The Pi is almost perfect, but I think we can all come up with some improvements.
And so there might be another device that will be very similar to the Pi, but cater more to the crowd of hundredthousands of people that bought it now.

And getting it cheap enough should not be a problem. I also don't see the use of a GPU in the chip, as I have not seen it used in anything so far. It might be a feature that is too closed source or out of place in such a low power device as the Pi, the same as a fancy high power stereo radio would be wasted on a 1947 Tractor, where having a fancy radio would be the least of your problems ;-)

I have run RaspXBMC and there it helps with video playback big time, not stutter at all.

But generally, the Pi is a little underpowered for a Media Center.


First post, bringing up a topic well covered from a year ago. The Pi has a closed source GPU, That isn't going to change. I'm afraid you will have to live with that. If that means buying a different device, go for it.

Android was never really an option for education, so missing it isn't a problem to the Foundation.

EDIT TO ADD: GPU is used in lots of things - camera, video, the OPEN and standardised 3d and 2d libraries etc. If you want Android there are devices available (and I don't think too many people as a proportion really want Android on Raspi tbh), or if you want it in a Raspberry Pi like device, please, you can buy chips - go and make it yourself.
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by Oakham » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:20 am
nigratruo wrote:Why open hardware is important shows this example here:

http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/1700

this is about porting Android to the Raspberry Pi. This is a great project, as Android would be the perfect plattform for a lot of functions and there are tons and tons of apps available. And it would also put the power to build Android devices in our own hands, instead of having to shell out money for a closed cellphone that you need to unlock and free from its chains (who locked it for me when I payed for it? Did I pay for that lock too that is keeping me out? There starts the insane and nonsensical thought)

Now, the Android porting project is stalled, hasn't moved in over a year. Everybody is waiting and they announced ICS, which is more than a little outdated. Currently, there are no drivers for the hardware and as often, the company in charge of it is not in a hurry to provide them. If this were open hardware, we could write them ourselves. But as it is one company, this becomes the single point of failure.

I doubt that the Android porting project is ever going to happen, sadly.
So we need open hardware!
I love the Pi and have done tons of projects with it, but it seems to be stagnating (no improvements planed, we are after all not in the business of pleasing anyone else than the schools (which as current are not where the Pi has found most friends)
Is the Raspberry Pi foundation uncomfortable with new target audience that they did not forsee or plan for?

I see that there needs to be an improvement. The Pi is almost perfect, but I think we can all come up with some improvements.
And so there might be another device that will be very similar to the Pi, but cater more to the crowd of hundredthousands of people that bought it now.

And getting it cheap enough should not be a problem. I also don't see the use of a GPU in the chip, as I have not seen it used in anything so far. It might be a feature that is too closed source or out of place in such a low power device as the Pi, the same as a fancy high power stereo radio would be wasted on a 1947 Tractor, where having a fancy radio would be the least of your problems ;-)

I have run RaspXBMC and there it helps with video playback big time, not stutter at all.

But generally, the Pi is a little underpowered for a Media Center.


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by Cancelor » Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:55 am
RaTTuS wrote:if you want open then go and get yourself a parallella http://www.parallella.org/2013/06/29/pa ... -hardware/
Second sentence on that page ''The first beta version of the board will go out to early backers soon! ''

Go figure! :twisted:
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by RaTTuS » Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:08 am
Dates dates dates
that blog was from June
parallella's are in peoples hands now
you can [pre]order them ..... mine should be here in a month or so,

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