the success of the original home computers were largely based on their simplicity, I'm 34 years old, the spectrum zx80 was my first home computer that I taught myself to program on when I was 12 years old...
with the decision for the official raspberrypi OS to be linux, I believe the raspberry pi is a failure before it has began.. linux is far from a simple and easy to understand system, if my spectrum ran such a complex system I wouldnt have the confidence I have on computer systems, because at that young age it would of been unlikely I would have been understand the complete system, as I did back in the early days of computing.
Of course I will be working on an alternate system to run on the raspberry so my children can experience the confidence through self learning I had the opportunity to. If others have this need as well, maybe we should get together to fix the raspberry for future for everyone.
thanks for listening
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
What worked for you in 1990 might not be the only good way to learn programming today, ever considered that you're just biased toward simpler systems?
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
Hi rodneyj,
You are of course entitled to your opinion, however I believe you are wrong.
There is a lot of support out there with respect to Linux. Also you don"t need to know about Linux to write some code in Python which is the favoured language. For example I wrote my first python code on a Mac, didn"t need to know anything about MacOSX to get "Hello World" up.
If you feel you can put together a simpler OS then that would be an excellent project, and very much in the spirit of the RPi. People will be interested to see how you do.
There is a site in the UK who employed young people, the management had an interesting policy, which was
"we gave the impossible problems to the young people, because they didn"t realise they were impossible. They found some really good solutions"
So don"t underestimate what children can do when set a problem .
You are of course entitled to your opinion, however I believe you are wrong.
There is a lot of support out there with respect to Linux. Also you don"t need to know about Linux to write some code in Python which is the favoured language. For example I wrote my first python code on a Mac, didn"t need to know anything about MacOSX to get "Hello World" up.
If you feel you can put together a simpler OS then that would be an excellent project, and very much in the spirit of the RPi. People will be interested to see how you do.
There is a site in the UK who employed young people, the management had an interesting policy, which was
"we gave the impossible problems to the young people, because they didn"t realise they were impossible. They found some really good solutions"
So don"t underestimate what children can do when set a problem .
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
O.K. rodneyj, what is your suggested OS?
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
Well, that's why the Raspberry pi has been designed the way it was - it's essentially "unbreakable". I mean, you can break it obviously but it's easy to recovery.
On any modern PC if you hose the OS, you have to reinstall the whole deal which might involve partitioning and formatting and all sorts of other stuff. The Pi, on the other hand, is just a case of popping the SD card into your PC and saving another image to it. Easy Peasy.
The Raspberry Pi can't have "failed" already because it hasn't really even begun. Everything you've seen so far is just a small example of what it can and will do, the big push will come in september when the educational versions roll out. And remember, the Raspberry Pi isn't about teaching kids about computers, it's about teaching kids programming, hence the focus on Python and the Pi name. Yes, there's the hope that kids will tinker with it and break things and that's fantastic, but that comes later, after the programming. Once you get kids programming, it's only a matter of time before they're tinkering with the system internals.
On any modern PC if you hose the OS, you have to reinstall the whole deal which might involve partitioning and formatting and all sorts of other stuff. The Pi, on the other hand, is just a case of popping the SD card into your PC and saving another image to it. Easy Peasy.
The Raspberry Pi can't have "failed" already because it hasn't really even begun. Everything you've seen so far is just a small example of what it can and will do, the big push will come in september when the educational versions roll out. And remember, the Raspberry Pi isn't about teaching kids about computers, it's about teaching kids programming, hence the focus on Python and the Pi name. Yes, there's the hope that kids will tinker with it and break things and that's fantastic, but that comes later, after the programming. Once you get kids programming, it's only a matter of time before they're tinkering with the system internals.
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
Meh, early days yet. Give it a few months while the kinks are being ironed out, and then we"ll see. IMHO, the major factor affecting "success" is manufacturing them fast enough, which, looked at another way, makes it already a win...
note: I may or may not know what I'm talking about...
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
Regarding Linux and it"s user-friendliness: I"m about OP"s age, and I"m not a big fan of Linux, but I hear it"s highly-customisable, and expect to see raspi-specific versions designed for kid-friendliness popping up like mushrooms in the next 6months - the complaints won"t be "it"s too hard!" , but "it"s too hard to choose!"
note: I may or may not know what I'm talking about...
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johnbeetem
- Posts: 945
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- Location: The Mountains
- Contact: Website
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
rodneyj said:
... with the decision for the official raspberrypi OS to be linux...
I like the way RasPi has an official OS and official language, because otherwise fragmentation would create chaos for the target audience and chaos for people trying to develop for that target audience. I like even more that I can ignore the official OS and official language and do what I like with the hardware and software.
I wish you the best with your own OS plans. I expect that when you try to get a file system and USB/networking stacks running, GNU/Linux won't seem quite as complex as it first appeared.
... with the decision for the official raspberrypi OS to be linux...
I like the way RasPi has an official OS and official language, because otherwise fragmentation would create chaos for the target audience and chaos for people trying to develop for that target audience. I like even more that I can ignore the official OS and official language and do what I like with the hardware and software.
I wish you the best with your own OS plans. I expect that when you try to get a file system and USB/networking stacks running, GNU/Linux won't seem quite as complex as it first appeared.
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
I think roders is a troll... if he thinks this, why the hell register and post?
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
The post looks like a poor attempt at a wind-up to me - I doubt anybody who had ever owned one would call it a Spectrum ZX80.
On the off chance that it is meant to be a serious debate, then it is missing the point. While some people will take the opportunity to learn Linux, there is no need, I am sure there are already SD card images which will boot straight into a user interface that is no harder to use than Windows 7 (if there is not now, then there will be by the time of the educational release).
To suggest that the user will need an indepth knowledge of Linux to learn basic programming on the PI, is like suggesting that you need a copy of the Complete Spectrum ROM disassembley (did anybody else have a copy of that by the way) and an understanding of Z80 assembler in order to learn BASIC on the Spectrum.
On the off chance that it is meant to be a serious debate, then it is missing the point. While some people will take the opportunity to learn Linux, there is no need, I am sure there are already SD card images which will boot straight into a user interface that is no harder to use than Windows 7 (if there is not now, then there will be by the time of the educational release).
To suggest that the user will need an indepth knowledge of Linux to learn basic programming on the PI, is like suggesting that you need a copy of the Complete Spectrum ROM disassembley (did anybody else have a copy of that by the way) and an understanding of Z80 assembler in order to learn BASIC on the Spectrum.
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
Andre_P said:
"we gave the impossible problems to the young people, because they didn"t realise they were impossible. They found some really good solutions"
So don"t underestimate what children can do when set a problem .
Brilliant! Re the OP, I think Linux is quite often a misunderstood operating system. It's foreign, different to Windows so is dropped by most newcomers. I myself, coming from a Windows background, found it difficult to switch over and I'm still 70/30 towards Windows. I do think that this is 100% about conditioning though. If I'd been more exposed to Linux growing up I would be using it a lot more. Not because it's difficult - because it's different.
And let's say some non-profit charity developed a cheap computer that allowed me to start tinkering around with Linux from the age of 7, encouraged by my school, well, that would've been a whole different ball game
"we gave the impossible problems to the young people, because they didn"t realise they were impossible. They found some really good solutions"
So don"t underestimate what children can do when set a problem .
Brilliant! Re the OP, I think Linux is quite often a misunderstood operating system. It's foreign, different to Windows so is dropped by most newcomers. I myself, coming from a Windows background, found it difficult to switch over and I'm still 70/30 towards Windows. I do think that this is 100% about conditioning though. If I'd been more exposed to Linux growing up I would be using it a lot more. Not because it's difficult - because it's different.
And let's say some non-profit charity developed a cheap computer that allowed me to start tinkering around with Linux from the age of 7, encouraged by my school, well, that would've been a whole different ball game
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
It's a wind up. If he's 34 yrs old, he would have been 4 when the Spectrum came out, or 0 when the ZX80 came out. Since he started programming at age 12, that would have been 8 years after the Spectrum was released. By which time it was old hat and early PC's were ruling the roost. Although the speccy wasn't discontinued until '92 (Amstrad era), so I suppose it might be possible.
Anyway, time will tell if the device has already failed!
Anyway, time will tell if the device has already failed!
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
I've been saying "Mucho" to my Spanish friend a lot more lately. It means a lot to him.
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
well my first computer was a MK14 if you can call it a computer it had 256 bytes of ram.
Windows etc is for users, not programers. if the troll wants the Pi to be like a PC then he has his user head stuck on. Lets hope that the Pi helps people move away from the bloat ware that windows forces on us. my PET 4016 with only 16K of ram, about the same as a word "hello" doc could run some fun games.
talking of bloatware why did my windows bluetooth download need to be 65M for a comms package?
Windows etc is for users, not programers. if the troll wants the Pi to be like a PC then he has his user head stuck on. Lets hope that the Pi helps people move away from the bloat ware that windows forces on us. my PET 4016 with only 16K of ram, about the same as a word "hello" doc could run some fun games.
talking of bloatware why did my windows bluetooth download need to be 65M for a comms package?
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
"Raspberry Pi too complicated for kids"
There is a big flaw in this I think. One, it underrates the capabilities of kids. They are just not frightened by complexity, they probably don't even know it is there. They are able to find and explore parts they do understand, without worrying they don't know everything.
Two, it is all relative. In absolute terms, the Pi is a lot more complicated than a Spectrum. But back when I was looking at assembler code on my Acorn Atom, the only other technology around was pretty simple stuff to operate: TV, calculators, digital watches. So to my Dad, what I was doing seemed like rocket science - I tried to explain it to him, but I don't think he could really understand it, bless his soul.
Nowadays kids play with a range of sophisticated devices, so the starting level is much higher. They are used to a keyboard and mouse, they are not phased by Windows, the internet etc. It is not actually much more of a leap to pull up a window and run some Python, than it is to boot up a Spectrum and run some BASIC.
I think if the only thing that the Raspbery Pi could do was run BASIC, it truly would be a failure.
There is a big flaw in this I think. One, it underrates the capabilities of kids. They are just not frightened by complexity, they probably don't even know it is there. They are able to find and explore parts they do understand, without worrying they don't know everything.
Two, it is all relative. In absolute terms, the Pi is a lot more complicated than a Spectrum. But back when I was looking at assembler code on my Acorn Atom, the only other technology around was pretty simple stuff to operate: TV, calculators, digital watches. So to my Dad, what I was doing seemed like rocket science - I tried to explain it to him, but I don't think he could really understand it, bless his soul.
Nowadays kids play with a range of sophisticated devices, so the starting level is much higher. They are used to a keyboard and mouse, they are not phased by Windows, the internet etc. It is not actually much more of a leap to pull up a window and run some Python, than it is to boot up a Spectrum and run some BASIC.
I think if the only thing that the Raspbery Pi could do was run BASIC, it truly would be a failure.
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fadedknight
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:07 pm
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
I'd say from the amount of people now talking about getting kids programming, and the number of people who think they can do it better than the Pi team, that it has already achieved many objectives before a single unit shipped.
If people go down the route that they can do this with stuff downloaded on a PC - that will be because of the Pi team.
If a future games/app guru cites owning a Pi as the start of their journey - that will be fantastic.
But if my kids fiddle with it a bit, copy some code now and then, and learn to appreciate process and logic, that will be a very well spent £30. I've never been a programmer - but I can write an Excel macro, and I could make a basic web page - both of which led to me getting a great job (as even a few basic skills made me a much better candidate than anyone else) and I started typing listings into my Spectrum. Having fun with a Pi and having a go can lead to great things - even if your kids don't become candidates for Eben's Cambridge course they will learn skills that can help with non-computing tasks.
The Pi is already a success - just for the debate it is fueling.
If people go down the route that they can do this with stuff downloaded on a PC - that will be because of the Pi team.
If a future games/app guru cites owning a Pi as the start of their journey - that will be fantastic.
But if my kids fiddle with it a bit, copy some code now and then, and learn to appreciate process and logic, that will be a very well spent £30. I've never been a programmer - but I can write an Excel macro, and I could make a basic web page - both of which led to me getting a great job (as even a few basic skills made me a much better candidate than anyone else) and I started typing listings into my Spectrum. Having fun with a Pi and having a go can lead to great things - even if your kids don't become candidates for Eben's Cambridge course they will learn skills that can help with non-computing tasks.
The Pi is already a success - just for the debate it is fueling.
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
JamesH said:
It's a wind up. If he's 34 yrs old, he would have been 4 when the Spectrum came out, or 0 when the ZX80 came out. Since he started programming at age 12, that would have been 8 years after the Spectrum was released. By which time it was old hat and early PC's were ruling the roost. Although the speccy wasn't discontinued until '92 (Amstrad era), so I suppose it might be possible.
Anyway, time will tell if the device has already failed!
Whilst absolutely correct your maths has made me feel old all of a sudden. Yes he would need to be at least 10 years older. I know as aged 11 or 12 I ordered a Sinclair ZX80 and received a ZX81.
It's a wind up. If he's 34 yrs old, he would have been 4 when the Spectrum came out, or 0 when the ZX80 came out. Since he started programming at age 12, that would have been 8 years after the Spectrum was released. By which time it was old hat and early PC's were ruling the roost. Although the speccy wasn't discontinued until '92 (Amstrad era), so I suppose it might be possible.
Anyway, time will tell if the device has already failed!
Whilst absolutely correct your maths has made me feel old all of a sudden. Yes he would need to be at least 10 years older. I know as aged 11 or 12 I ordered a Sinclair ZX80 and received a ZX81.
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
I find it amazing that not one single replier has understood the nature of my argument here.
Does no one else even understand why the raspberry pi has been created ? Although I could write an essay on the situation, I feel the information is already available for you all to research yourselves.
Almost all questions raised with my original post, were answered in my OP, so instead of dissecting ignorant comments, I just refer you learn to read and reread my OP. Other points raised that were not initially spelt out in my OP, are ignorant beyond belief, and so I will choose to just ignore them.
This thread is not for trolls to spew rubbish and or brainwashed repetition, please polluted someone elses thread with that kind of playground talk.
Now please just ignore this thread unless the OP applies to you and you are an interested party, just to be clear :
<copypasta from OP>
Of course I will be working on an alternate system to run on the raspberry so my children can experience the confidence through self learning I had the opportunity to. If others have this need as well, maybe we should get together to fix the raspberry for future for everyone.
</end copypasta>
So just to be doubly clear, as I understand most cant seem to read, and or have some hardwired reaction to repeat rubbish to make themselves feel better : -
Please Please have some respect for others, and dont reply here unless you feel as I do, and want to help in anyway with this. If you disagree with me, please make your own thread that I wont have to read….
thanks again
<ps edit> -- maybe I come from a poor family... stop trying to call me a liar... maybe it was a zx81, I quickly got a +2 anyway... who cares, im talking about that era of personal computers... and please, just make your own thread to split hairs, I dont like wasting time with it...
Does no one else even understand why the raspberry pi has been created ? Although I could write an essay on the situation, I feel the information is already available for you all to research yourselves.
Almost all questions raised with my original post, were answered in my OP, so instead of dissecting ignorant comments, I just refer you learn to read and reread my OP. Other points raised that were not initially spelt out in my OP, are ignorant beyond belief, and so I will choose to just ignore them.
This thread is not for trolls to spew rubbish and or brainwashed repetition, please polluted someone elses thread with that kind of playground talk.
Now please just ignore this thread unless the OP applies to you and you are an interested party, just to be clear :
<copypasta from OP>
Of course I will be working on an alternate system to run on the raspberry so my children can experience the confidence through self learning I had the opportunity to. If others have this need as well, maybe we should get together to fix the raspberry for future for everyone.
</end copypasta>
So just to be doubly clear, as I understand most cant seem to read, and or have some hardwired reaction to repeat rubbish to make themselves feel better : -
Please Please have some respect for others, and dont reply here unless you feel as I do, and want to help in anyway with this. If you disagree with me, please make your own thread that I wont have to read….
thanks again
<ps edit> -- maybe I come from a poor family... stop trying to call me a liar... maybe it was a zx81, I quickly got a +2 anyway... who cares, im talking about that era of personal computers... and please, just make your own thread to split hairs, I dont like wasting time with it...
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
My first computer was an Apple II. That's where I did most of my first programming, and it was a lot of fun. I did basic and some assembly, but I never understood all of the underlying system in the ROM chips, which seems to be the comparison made by the OP. I enjoyed making programs to draw various graphics patterns, and would have happily used a much more complicated machine, if it had higher resolution and higher bit-depth graphics .
The apple wasn't actually my very first programming experience; that was a summer class involving Basic programs on punched cards (!) running through an IBM VM/370 (!!) and apart from being a bit slow and tedious, it was also fun and instructive and first got me thinking about programming. And I certainly didn't understand the internals of the '370.
EDIT: if the point is that the early home PCs presented a simple interface, possibly hiding a complex system beneath, I think it's a good point. I think the RasPi is perfectly capable of presenting a simple interface as well- that's all in the software. After all it can emulate an Apple II or other early model if you want that.
The apple wasn't actually my very first programming experience; that was a summer class involving Basic programs on punched cards (!) running through an IBM VM/370 (!!) and apart from being a bit slow and tedious, it was also fun and instructive and first got me thinking about programming. And I certainly didn't understand the internals of the '370.
EDIT: if the point is that the early home PCs presented a simple interface, possibly hiding a complex system beneath, I think it's a good point. I think the RasPi is perfectly capable of presenting a simple interface as well- that's all in the software. After all it can emulate an Apple II or other early model if you want that.
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
Dammit, I got trolled! JohnW and JamesH figured it out - it"s unlikely that a 34-yr-old would have learned to program on a ZX80 when they were 12, and then went on to call it a "spectrum" ZX80" years later.
Either the OP is just having a larf, or has had a few beers and is suffering from "first computer disremembrance", or had a terrible impoverished ;P childhood in which he was stuck with a "spectrum" ZX80 while the rest of us had Atari STs or Amiga"s or at least a Commodore 64. I estimate those chances at 90%,6%, and 3%, respectively. With a 1% chance it"s truthful. You never know, right?
Well played, OP, well played...
Either the OP is just having a larf, or has had a few beers and is suffering from "first computer disremembrance", or had a terrible impoverished ;P childhood in which he was stuck with a "spectrum" ZX80 while the rest of us had Atari STs or Amiga"s or at least a Commodore 64. I estimate those chances at 90%,6%, and 3%, respectively. With a 1% chance it"s truthful. You never know, right?
Well played, OP, well played...
note: I may or may not know what I'm talking about...
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
Oh no... Sorry, Rodney.
note: I may or may not know what I'm talking about...
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Joe Schmoe
- Posts: 4277
- Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:11 pm
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
Re #17:
Love the Garblespeak! I mean this in all sincerity. I'm a big fan of Garblespeak, and I say, keep it up! Very nice.
Love the Garblespeak! I mean this in all sincerity. I'm a big fan of Garblespeak, and I say, keep it up! Very nice.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.
(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)
(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)
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grumpyoldgit
- Posts: 1452
- Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
feature=related
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
If you have two agendas (i.e. trolling and then promoting a project), perhaps it would be better idea to make two posts. It's pretty damn hard to see which of your two points we were allowed to reply to.
But, to be honest, with that flame bait of a title and the fact that you posted in General section and not in Collaboration makes me say I have to go with troll as well. Disregarding a year back or forth.
But, to be honest, with that flame bait of a title and the fact that you posted in General section and not in Collaboration makes me say I have to go with troll as well. Disregarding a year back or forth.
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
Well it does not matter to me, that people have little respect for others trying to help people, and continue to pollute this thread. Because I was lucky enough to be at the right time and the right place in the golden age of computing, and so I am confident and able to do on my own what I imagine.
My children are lucky, and I will release my work for other children to have these benefits as well anyway, as I am just trying to help others.
Its a shame people think its fun to ruin serious threads where someone simply is trying to help others, but its really not my fault others are like this...
I did the right thing to come here on the official forums and accept teamwork and ideas for this project.
thanks for your input guys
My children are lucky, and I will release my work for other children to have these benefits as well anyway, as I am just trying to help others.
Its a shame people think its fun to ruin serious threads where someone simply is trying to help others, but its really not my fault others are like this...
I did the right thing to come here on the official forums and accept teamwork and ideas for this project.
thanks for your input guys
Re: raspberry pi already failed ?
jbeale : yes I believe a big part of the situation is to provide a simple interface as you said.
However, I think we would need to provide the interfaces to the more advanced features of the RasPi from within that simpler looking interface otherwise I fear that users will get the impression they are in a simpler system with less features. And as soon as they realise this would just "break out" of that anyway.
.........
Reason I posted this thread where I did and with the title I did, is not because of im mindlessly trying to cause heated arguments, but because of a real concern with the direction the computer is taking.
I actually agree that a linux system should be initially deployed, so as to take advantage of the masses of software already available for linux systems and also the vibrant community. I just think as the system is aimed at children learning programming, that Linux should become an alternate system for the device and initial only, not the standard. Linux is great for someone like me, us nerdy type long time programmers love to see the complexity there straight away and have access to it easily, however I believe this would put off young newbies.
However my initial solution to the Linux RasPi complexity for children problem, could well be to create yet another Linux distribution....
Ofcourse how I feel about all this could be completely delusional in numerous ways, but its how I feel after years of looking at this problem and even creating [failed] solutions to it in the past.
However, I think we would need to provide the interfaces to the more advanced features of the RasPi from within that simpler looking interface otherwise I fear that users will get the impression they are in a simpler system with less features. And as soon as they realise this would just "break out" of that anyway.
.........
Reason I posted this thread where I did and with the title I did, is not because of im mindlessly trying to cause heated arguments, but because of a real concern with the direction the computer is taking.
I actually agree that a linux system should be initially deployed, so as to take advantage of the masses of software already available for linux systems and also the vibrant community. I just think as the system is aimed at children learning programming, that Linux should become an alternate system for the device and initial only, not the standard. Linux is great for someone like me, us nerdy type long time programmers love to see the complexity there straight away and have access to it easily, however I believe this would put off young newbies.
However my initial solution to the Linux RasPi complexity for children problem, could well be to create yet another Linux distribution....
Ofcourse how I feel about all this could be completely delusional in numerous ways, but its how I feel after years of looking at this problem and even creating [failed] solutions to it in the past.