First-day experiences with a TV display

[prodata]

Think the rumoured move to a VGA display option is pretty sensible. I've found the first day with an HDMI display a little frustrating:

None of my several current LCD monitors has an HDMI socket, I've discovered. Buying a new HDMI display seems to cost £110-120 as a minimum compared to £60ish for plain VGA. Yes I could have tried DVI-D on the couple of displays that have this but that would have meant sourcing yet another cable or adapter. VGA is - currently at least - the lingua franca among display inputs.

Fortunately, I have a 19" portable TV with an HDMI input. Should be plain sailing I thought. Not so: For a couple of hours got No Signal whatever I tried. Then after a final, final look at the manual I discovered that there was an obscure way of switching the input. Seems this particular Toshiba TV will try Ext1 automatically as an input, but Ext2, which it turns out is what the HDMI input maps to, requires some obscure button pushing to activate HDMI mode. The menu on the display only provides the default options of TV and Ext1. I still don't know exactly which buttons I pushed to get the HDMI mode - nothing seemed to work to start with and then all of sudden a supplementary menu appeared that offered me HDMI as one of the options.

Pleasantly surprised at the result of startx (remember I'm a 100% Windows user) and how easily I was able to browse the web. But switching to the graphical display did highlight that the display had defaulted to 1920x1080 which is too ambitious on a 19" TV. But I can't see any way of switching to a lower resolution within the graphical environment - what's the secret? All I'm offered is 1920x1080 or auto, which defaults to the former.

Is there a utility to set the clock - can't see that either - I know there's no RTC but there is presumably some simple way of setting the clock automatically at the start of each new session?

[dom]

Check http://elinux.org/RPi_config.txt for setting lower resolution.

You want

framebuffer_width=1280

framebuffer_height=720

in /boot/config.txt for example.

The clock should be set automatically (using ntp) if you have a network connected when booting, although I have seen it occasionally fail.

[selsinork]

prodata said:


But switching to the graphical display did highlight that the display had defaulted to 1920x1080 which is too ambitious on a 19" TV.


How so ?  My 15" laptop does 1920x1080, and while it's better than lots of others stuck with 1366x768 I'd much prefer an even higher resolution.

The Foundation have been ambitious enough to provide us the R-Pi, what's your TV's excuse?

[Tass]

Not to rub it in here, but I must say I've been lucky enough to not have any issues.  I plugged my Pi into my 42" Samsung LCD TV and everything boot up first time, nice & fast, nice crisp display.

[mahjongg]

VGA output is not going to happen, its simply not supported by the SoC.

Just get a HDMI to DVI cable, lots and lots of older "VGA" monitors (at least the LCD based ones) also support DVI, and they are a dime a dozen, with the cables costing less than 15 euro.

P.S. That monitors do not have HDMI is quite logical, HDMI is invented for TV's, it also carries sound and other signaling only intended for TV's. Monitors use DVI, not HDMI. Sound is supported with the stereo (3.5mm jack) output, not HDMI quality but at least FM broadcast quality.

[SN]

mahjongg said:


VGA output is not going to happen, its simply not supported by the SoC.

Just get a HDMI to DVI cable, lots and lots of older "VGA" monitors (at least the LCD based ones) also support DVI, and they are a dime a dozen, with the cables costing less than 15 euro.


Please ignore this!!!! - we've done it to death!!! All these older VGA monitors with a DVI connection will usually only accept DVI-A and WON'T accept the DVI-D which you'll get out of a simple HDMI-to-DVI cable - you must use a converter device which AFAIK start at around the 30 pound mark.

[mahjongg]

selsinork said:


prodata said:


But switching to the graphical display did highlight that the display had defaulted to 1920x1080 which is too ambitious on a 19" TV.


How so ?  My 15" laptop does 1920x1080, and while it's better than lots of others stuck with 1366x768 I'd much prefer an even higher resolution.

The Foundation have been ambitious enough to provide us the R-Pi, what's your TV's excuse?




The GPU negotiates with the TV/Monitor through a data link on the HDMI/DVI link, and so it -should- choose a resolution that the TV/Monitor supports. If not you can create a text file "config.txt" (search the forum for details about config.txt) and place it on the sd-card. The text file can force the GPU to another default resolution of your choice, and can also do many other things like shifting the display and things like that, and for a composite TV it can switch between various TV standards. NTSC is default, but PAL (and a few others like the Brazilian PAL standard) are also possible, so if you use a TV and do not see color, that might be the solution too.

[mahjongg]

SN said:


mahjongg said:


VGA output is not going to happen, its simply not supported by the SoC.

Just get a HDMI to DVI cable, lots and lots of older "VGA" monitors (at least the LCD based ones) also support DVI, and they are a dime a dozen, with the cables costing less than 15 euro.


Please ignore this!!!! – we've done it to death!!! All these older VGA monitors with a DVI connection will usually only accept DVI-A and WON'T accept the DVI-D which you'll get out of a simple HDMI-to-DVI cable – you must use a converter device which AFAIK start at around the 30 pound mark.


Okay, such monitors do indeed exist, especially if they are CRT's, but LCD's are by nature digital devices, so accepting digital signals is much more logical than accepting analog signals. So I'm talking about older LCD monitors only, look at the back, and if they have a DVI-D or DVI-I  (single or dual link) connector like the top four in this picture Then it should work, if it looks like the bottom fifth one, then not so.



Looking at places like e-bay, and you can find plenty of 19" DVI-D monitors going for around 50 euro.

[prodata]

Sorry, I didn't particularly mean to reopen the VGA issues, but just thought there was a statement somewhere that it was being considered (SoC options permitting obviously) for a Pi 2. Point I was making rather was that while HDMI may in theory be an excellent modern choice, it's not in practice a trouble-free solution because of issues like:

*  Finding a suitable display with an HDMI input, without spending £110+;

* The issue about whether the TV needs to be on and with its HDMI port enabled before the Pi will generate an HDMI output;

* The problem I ran into where even having an TV to use with an auxiliary HDMI input, it was far from obvious how to get this input enabled (because eg it wasn't an option anywhere on the TV's main menu);

* Overscan problems, which I didn't personally trip over, which was fortunate because again nowhere on my TV's menus is there any obvious option to change the overscan;

And yes DVI-D would have been another option, but in many years of collecting (and losing) cables of different types, I never seem to have had cause to get an HDMI==>DVI one. Of course I could have gone out and bought one, but further cost and delay.

@selsinork: Remember this is a TV and not a monitor that I was using. I don't know technically what the panel/driving circuitry differences might be, but certainly on the TV I have (which may not be the most sophisticated) the 1080 vertical display did not generate  a good sharp display. It was legible but definitely not comfortable for extended use.

@dom: I'm coming at this as a Windows user and it's second nature to me to expect to be able to change the display resolution using a tool from within the graphic UI. You seem to be suggesting that this isn't possible under Linux, which is slightly surprising. Not a big deal to edit a text file of course, but so there isn't a UI tool for something so basic as changing the display resolution?

And I'll check the clock-setting at reboot. I think that yesterday I'd rebooted the Pi so many times trying to get the display working that I possibly didn't do a further reboot once the network came up.

[rmwebs]

No disrespect to the OP but I think you're in the minority.

Pretty much all TV's now have HDMI, unless you pick up a crappy £50 tv from a high-street retailer or supermarker, however even then, most will have HDMI.

The issue is that around 2-5 years ago, these places were selling cheap 'HD Ready' TV's - I know because I bought one. They are infact analog TV's, but are still flatscreen. They slap a DVI port on them, which actually gets converted back to an analog input once its inside the TV.

If you've got one of these, you're better off either throwing it away and getting a newer screen, or use analog input.

You'll find this present on brands such as Teknica, Pacific, Alba, Bush, Luxor, Goodmans, Furguson, Orion, Venturer, Kenmark, Logik, Essentials, Emotion and Digihome.

All I will say is that these are NOT in any shape or form HD screens. They are advertised as being 'HD Ready' not 'HD'. The difference is that if a display is HD Ready, they can receive a HD feed. Once it has been received, in many cases their analog input will quite simply scale down a 1080p HD feed to analog, or if you're lucky to 720p.

With that been said, in theory there is no reason why you cant use a simple HDMI to DVI cable, which costs a few quid and go right into the DVI feed, however again - a lot of these older models dont tend to stick to one type of DVI, some have DVI-D and some have DVI-I. Take a look at mahjongg's post above to see the difference. Just check the pins on your TV (or check the manual, it'll likely be written in the specifications of the TV/Monitor) and order the correct cable.

If you've only got a VGA input then lets face it, its time for you to upgrade

[prodata]

rmwebs said:


No disrespect to the OP but I think you're in the minority.


No disrespect taken But isn't the point being missed slightly here:

Isn't the Pi intended to be used (at least by its main target user group) as a minimal-cost computer? It's going to need a display and, by and large, the main family TV isn't going to be available for routine use. So what many users will be looking to use will be an older secondary TV or PC monitor, which will typically be only 'HD-Ready' or VGA. If the proposition is that the user needs to go out and buy a new TV/monitor then the total cost (Pi, TV, cables, KB/mouse, PSU etc) going to be heading up towards £200 and arguably it would be just as (probably more) convenient to go and buy a netbook.

[mahjongg]

prodata said:


Sorry, I didn't particularly mean to reopen the VGA issues, but just thought there was a statement somewhere that it was being considered (SoC options permitting obviously) for a Pi 2.


IMHO its very unlikely the RPF will switch to another SoC that supports VGA, sounds like "wishful thinking" to me. At least not for the next couple of years, if only to avoid the "osborne effect".

[rmwebs]

prodata said:


rmwebs said:


No disrespect to the OP but I think you're in the minority.


No disrespect taken But isn't the point being missed slightly here:

Isn't the Pi intended to be used (at least by its main target user group) as a minimal-cost computer? It's going to need a display and, by and large, the main family TV isn't going to be available for routine use. So what many users will be looking to use will be an older secondary TV or PC monitor, which will typically be only 'HD-Ready' or VGA. If the proposition is that the user needs to go out and buy a new TV/monitor then the total cost (Pi, TV, cables, KB/mouse, PSU etc) going to be heading up towards £200 and arguably it would be just as (probably more) convenient to go and buy a netbook.


Very true and valid point. The issue is that there is little other choice from the looks of things. As mahjongg mentioned, its unlikely that the PI's SOC will be changed to accommodate VGA as everything being produced is now HDMI. I guess it stems from a few years ago where there was somewhat of a port-war between DVI and HDMI. HDMI won, likely because it has a much easier/smaller port and (I could be wrong here) I believe it also supports more bandwidth.

I guess the only option is to work out alternative solutions.

Solution one is basically to just grab one of these cables (NOTE: You'll need to check if your display is DVI-D or DVI-I): http://www.amazon.co.uk/Premium-HDMI-Ca ... 721&sr=8-1

Option 2, Get a HDMI => VGA adaptor, like this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/1-5M-HDMI-Male- ... 762&sr=8-3

Option 3, use the analog output, using one of these: http://www.amazon.co.uk/VGA-to-S-Video- ... 809&sr=1-2

If using Option 3, you'll need a male to male phono and a Male RCA to Male 3.5mm, I cant seem to find one of these however.

Option 3 can become a messy setup as you'll end up with a bunch of cables and likely a pretty poor quality display.

IMO if you've got a TV with only a VGA input, go for a HDMI > VGA adaptor. If you've got a TV with a DVI input, go for HDMI > DVI. If you've got neither, then you can go for option 3, or you can get a converter box that can convert a digital feed to a scart socket.

[jamesh]

prodata said:


Think the rumoured move to a VGA display option is pretty sensible. I've found the first day with an HDMI display a little frustrating:

None of my several current LCD monitors has an HDMI socket, I've discovered. Buying a new HDMI display seems to cost £110-120 as a minimum compared to £60ish for plain VGA. Yes I could have tried DVI-D on the couple of displays that have this but that would have meant sourcing yet another cable or adapter. VGA is - currently at least - the lingua franca among display inputs.

Fortunately, I have a 19" portable TV with an HDMI input. Should be plain sailing I thought. Not so: For a couple of hours got No Signal whatever I tried. Then after a final, final look at the manual I discovered that there was an obscure way of switching the input. Seems this particular Toshiba TV will try Ext1 automatically as an input, but Ext2, which it turns out is what the HDMI input maps to, requires some obscure button pushing to activate HDMI mode. The menu on the display only provides the default options of TV and Ext1. I still don't know exactly which buttons I pushed to get the HDMI mode - nothing seemed to work to start with and then all of sudden a supplementary menu appeared that offered me HDMI as one of the options.

Pleasantly surprised at the result of startx (remember I'm a 100% Windows user) and how easily I was able to browse the web. But switching to the graphical display did highlight that the display had defaulted to 1920x1080 which is too ambitious on a 19" TV. But I can't see any way of switching to a lower resolution within the graphical environment - what's the secret? All I'm offered is 1920x1080 or auto, which defaults to the former.

Is there a utility to set the clock - can't see that either - I know there's no RTC but there is presumably some simple way of setting the clock automatically at the start of each new session?


There is no rumoured VGA mode. It's a very expensive option to put on the device, and I am not aware of any SoC that support it.

It sounds like you TV, althoguh it accepts 1080p input, cannot display 1080p input, so it's scaling it, and making it look pants. Try and find out the native resolution of the device (google) and set the Raspi up to that. Should help.

The clock should set automagically on startup if the net connection is working. Can take a while to syncronise, and there have been reports of it sometimes failing.

[prodata]

rmwebs said:


As mahjongg mentioned, its unlikely that the PI's SOC will be changed to accommodate VGA as everything being produced is now HDMI.


That's what I understood the case to be previously. But there seemed to have been a recent semi-official post to the effect that - somehow or other - VGA was being considered for Pi v2. Very probably I read more into this than was intended, in which case everything you've said obviously holds.

[RaTTuS]

any PI2 will be years away TBH - you are not going to see it anytime before 2015 at the earliest [if ever] then it will come with 2GB , 2 NIC's , sockets all on one side and a robotic pony]

a VGA option may be had by someone building an adapter and using the header btu it's going to cost  ...YMMV

[jamesh]

RaTTuS said:


any PI2 will be years away TBH - you are not going to see it anytime before 2015 at the earliest [if ever] then it will come with 2GB , 2 NIC's , sockets all on one side and a robotic pony]

a VGA option may be had by someone building an adapter and using the header btu it's going to cost  ...YMMV


I would expect similar but more powerful Raspi compatible devices (not necessarily from the Foundation) to appear much before 2015. The market won't stay still. 3 years is a long time.

VGA? Not so sure about that. It is just so expensive to put on.

[RaTTuS]

I still want the Robotic pony option though ;-p

[Guest]

Hi You can pick up a brand new 19" monitor with digital input for £64 from ebuyer, this was just the first one I came across without looking too much on the site.

http://www.ebuyer.com/179617-f.....k1331-v160