hippy
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:38 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:17 am
In general, if all devices that didn't meet some standard or other couldn't be sold, there would be vast swaths of stuff on the market that would have to be withdrawn.
It depends on which standard it fails to meet. If a product fails to meet a safety standard or mandated legislative standard it should not be on sale and it will often be ordered that it is recalled and the public informed as such.

If a product fails to meet some standard a seller or manufacturer explicitly claims or implies it meets; the seller or manufacturer can be ordered to stop claiming or implying as such, and purchasers will usually be entitled to refunds, repairs or replacement if they seek them.

That's the case in the EU and UK. The situation may differ in other jurisdictions.

Moonmarch
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:00 am

When you purchase the RPI4 you either only receive the computer nothing else or if you purchased the starter kit you will have everything you will need to run the computer, which means the computer should run out of the box if you read the instructions the starter kits will include the power supply, now if you are a person that buys every component individually if you let's say you build your own computers you will the description of all the components required to build the computer before checking out the shopping cart at your choice of online store, the RPI computer is not any different if the comptuer does not start up you will need to know why the computer will not start which can involve numerous scenarios you need to narrow down the reasons why you are running into these problems which includes searching around the internet for answers.

Even if you have a large number of power adapters you still need to verify the power adapter meets the 5V 3A power requirements, you will see power adapters rated at 5V 1A or 5V 2A powering the RPI computer is not challenging if you have access to all of the necessary components, if people do not understand how to use the RPI computer then request a refund use a Windows PC instead.

Heater
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:50 am

hippy,

Yes, which is exactly what I wrote a couple of posts back: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 2#p1564098

None of which applies in this case. There are no safety regulation violations. There has been no misleading advertising, quite the opposite.

And as I said there: "Big fuss about nothing"
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Imperf3kt
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:39 am

The USB port in my car does not transfer data to the on board computer. It merely supplies 12vDC to 5vDC conversion.
Can i rightly accuse the manufacturer of the USB device of not following usb2.0 spec?
Not really, as the device was never intended as anything other than a way to power 5v usb devices, similar to how the Pi was never intended to communicate with "Smart" chargers, but rather be powered via a 5v usb power supply.

The fact that you can use an appropriate usb charger to power your Pi, is a mere bonus, not its intended design.
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52:4C:52:42:41

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davidcoton
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:51 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:39 am
... the Pi was never intended to communicate with "Smart" chargers, but rather be powered via a 5v usb power supply.
... except the Pi WAS intended to work with a smart charger, the resistors should instruct the charger to deliver 5V. But there is a circuit error, so they don't work as intended.
Imperf3kt wrote: The fact that you can use an appropriate usb charger to power your Pi, is a mere bonus, not its intended design.
You are conflating two issues. Some chargers will not maintain 5V while supplying their rated load. That is nothing to do with the smart charger issue. You should be able to power the Pi4B from any 5V source that can provide 3A at 4.75V-5.25V. That includes (some) smart chargers. So there is a design fault on the first release of the Pi4B, it has been agreed as a fault by RPT, it will (at some time) be fixed, probably with other minor board changes (markings for Japanese regulatory approval, possibly). Then the Pi4B will conform to the USB3 PD spec (as a consumer, not sure about as a source).
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hippy
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:54 am

Heater wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:50 am
hippy,

Yes, which is exactly what I wrote a couple of posts back: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 2#p1564098

None of which applies in this case. There are no safety regulation violations. There has been no misleading advertising, quite the opposite.

And as I said there: "Big fuss about nothing"
Seeing as my reply was deleted it appears I am not allowed to address this in the manner I did. I therefore won't be addressing this point.

Lewis-H
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:04 pm

The Pi 4 is not the first high-profile device to get the USB-C spec wrong. The Nintendo Switch also has a non-compliant USB-C port and Nintendo has warned against using substandard cables with the device.

Regards,
Lewis

jamesh
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:44 pm

Lewis-H wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:04 pm
The Pi 4 is not the first high-profile device to get the USB-C spec wrong. The Nintendo Switch also has a non-compliant USB-C port and Nintendo has warned against using substandard cables with the device.

Regards,
Lewis
Yes, but whoever Nintendo are, they cannot be that big a company, so making a mistake is understandable....oh...hold on.....

Nice to be in the same paragraph as Nintendo though!
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jahboater
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:25 pm

davidcoton wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:51 am
... except the Pi WAS intended to work with a smart charger
Where did you get that from?
Can you provide a link ?

LTolledo
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:38 pm

jahboater wrote:
davidcoton wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:51 am
... except the Pi WAS intended to work with a smart charger
Where did you get that from?
Can you provide a link ?
Yes I'd like to see and have a good read at that official documentation (preferably authored by someone in RPF) clearly stating such....

if not... then the statement can be seemed as "bogus...."
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Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

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jamesh
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:06 pm

'Intended' is a strong statement - we want USB-C power supplies to work, whatever their smartness. And there will be a future board rev. to make sure they do.
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:30 pm

spooker wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:49 pm
jamesh wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:06 pm
And there will be a future board rev. to make sure they do.
is the board revision going to be 1.2 :lol: ?
No idea.
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davidcoton
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:18 pm

jamesh wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:06 pm
'Intended' is a strong statement - we want USB-C power supplies to work, whatever their smartness. And there will be a future board rev. to make sure they do.
Sorry James, I'm not knocking the designers.
My assumption was that they "intended" to follow the USB-C-PD spec (that may not be the official name), because the design includes the necessary resistors, just with a mistake in the connections. The intention to follow the spec implies an intention that the Pi should work with any compliant source. In this case the mistaken connection between CC1 and CC2 (circuit drawing error, track routing error, or whatever the cause) introduced an incompatibility, thus defeating the intention (both the literal intention to follow the spec and the consequent compatibility intention).

If my interpretation is wrong, I am happy to withdraw my posting about intentions....
Please note I often do things wrong, or not at all, despite my (better or even best) intentions.
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spark57
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sun May 17, 2020 2:05 pm

Hi,

Regardless of whether the USB C RPi 4 specification is incorrectly implemented or not, I would like to know if RPi 4 can be powered via USB C from another 5V / 3A power source, simply by connecting the power supply wires to the + V and GND pins mounted on the cable USB C plug? Are additional connections required? Looking at the RPi 4 diagram, the USB C power connection seems more complicated. And what is the correct answer?

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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sun May 17, 2020 4:49 pm

spark57 wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 2:05 pm
Hi,

Regardless of whether the USB C RPi 4 specification is incorrectly implemented or not, I would like to know if RPi 4 can be powered via USB C from another 5V / 3A power source, simply by connecting the power supply wires to the + V and GND pins mounted on the cable USB C plug? Are additional connections required? Looking at the RPi 4 diagram, the USB C power connection seems more complicated. And what is the correct answer?
The complication is that USB-C connectors are reversible--and, supposedly--without loss of function.

Now, as it happens, the PCB for Pi4Bs *has* been fixed by releasing a v1.2 revision. Pi4B4v1.2 boards have been "in the wild" for some months now. Just this week, I got a Pi4B2v1.2. It is the first one I've seen, or had verified that it is indeed a 2GB Pi4B that is v1.2. So they're out there, though no guarantee that any particular retailer will have Pi2B4v1.2 boards to ship. In another six months, Pi4B2v1.1 will probably be a collectors item.

crossbar
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sun May 17, 2020 4:51 pm

I would like to know if RPi 4 can be powered via USB C from another 5V / 3A power source, simply by connecting the power supply wires to the + V and GND pins mounted on the cable USB C plug?

Yes.
Are additional connections required?
No.

spark57
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sun May 17, 2020 5:55 pm

crossbar wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 4:51 pm
I would like to know if RPi 4 can be powered via USB C from another 5V / 3A power source, simply by connecting the power supply wires to the + V and GND pins mounted on the cable USB C plug?

Yes.
Are additional connections required?
No.
And this is the answer I needed.
Thank you!

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