jamesh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:48 am

And everyone else, please keep on topic.
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laurent
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:52 am

jamesh wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:55 am
Not sure why people think that you can get more speed out of a CPU but still use less power.
Effectively, it's a fact : peoples expect more CPU performance for a lower power consumption.
It may due to the industry's ads : always more XX% of performance gain and less XX% of power consumption comparing to previous model or competitors (look at the recent Apple keynote about A13 SoC - could be applied to every manufacturer's keynote, though).

We also have to consider that devices embedding those SoC are idling most of the time. Smartphones, tablets or whatever mostly uses smaller process SoC, with big.LITTLE cores, and a good power management and I think we have an answer explaining why peoples are expecting more (announced) processing power for less or equivalent power consumption.

Idling at low temperatures globally helps a lot. I think it's the key point.
It helps for user's feeling of having a good overall system temperature (totally subjective, though).
More technically, it helps to offer a better inertia to prevent throttling, idealy before the power hungry task is finished.

lb
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:27 am

Has anyone checked yet how much of a difference the new bootloader firmware (not the VLI firmware) makes? It changes some of the SDRAM programming and promises to reduce power consumption.

gkreidl
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:45 am

As I've said before, some kind of cooling has always been required since the RPi 3B if you want to avoid throttling when running high loads for some time. The RPi 2B has been the last RPi board which could be placed into a closed plastic box without providing any cooling.

My real world test case has always been HandBrake, a video converter. Tasks run for a long time, need all 4 cores and include a lot of heavy NEON work using NEON-optimzed codecs.

My RPi 3B is housed in an acryl case with open sides, mounted sideways to allow better airflow and has a small heat sink on the SOC. When running HandBrake for some time, ist reaches 80C and starts to throttle, but never below 1100 MHz.

My RPi 3B+ sits in a FLIRC case. With high load it will reach 70C and throttle back to 1200 MHz. I'ver never seen it throttle any further.

My RPi 4B/4G is also in a FLIRC case. I've converted a lot of videos recently. On heavy load it usually ran at 72-73C. The highest temperature I've seen was 74.99C. No throttling at all.

Large heat sinkls plus a fan may provide better cooling, but why? The RPi 4B stays well inside its specs and doesn't throttle. That's all I want. And I hate fans
Last edited by gkreidl on Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ProDigit
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:47 pm

jdb wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:46 am
ProDigit wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:04 am
When you look at the sales of the 4B, you can clearly see there's a market for a pi desktop replacement, and for many, the 4B isn't that one yet.
It would make sense to continue the trend of more power, more options, less heat, to satisfy that market.

But if you ask me,
I think the pi is popular because of low power consumption, not because of exceptional performance.
I think devices like the pi 1, 2 and zero became popular (taking the GPIO out of the equation) in part because they were cheap, in part because it's a new thing, ARM (not Intel), and in part because they were more energy efficient than x86 alternatives.

No one bought Pi's because of their performance, but a lot bought it for their performance per watt.

As far as a smaller die goes, smaller dies allow for a reduction in power consumption, as well as in heat.
Heat is directly proportional to power consumption.
So when power consumption goes down, so does heat.
In order to get a better heat dissipation with a die shrink, it's contact area needs to increase with the heat sink, which is why a smaller die CPU, is best paired with more cores.
This can also be done by combining CPU, GPU, and potentially RAM on one socket.
The CPU can then dissipate heat to the GPU and ram, which have a much lower TDP and heat generation, and which in turn dissipate it to the heat sink.
It would actually benefit arm to put 128-256MB of Vram right on the CPU/GPU block, so the chipset no longer needs to use regular ram, and has more direct Access to the memory.
But even if not, a smaller size CPU can be doubled or quadrupled, to increase surface size with the cooling solution. Meaning a single core at load will dissipate the heat through the other cores, and heat might only become an issue if all 4 cores on the smaller (14nm) die are operating at full load; thus reaching slightly higher temperatures as a 28nm single core CPU.
This post is a perfect example of the adage "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".
I suggest people ignore it.

Prodigit, stop posting half-formed opinions as fact.
Feel free to disagree with me, but it would be nice to actually say what you're disagreeing on, and what you're calling "half-formed opinions".
They're better than just blatant criticism without any ground.

Back to frying eggs on a pi 4.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:33 pm

ProDigit wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:47 pm

Feel free to disagree with me, but it would be nice to actually say what you're disagreeing on, and what you're calling "half-formed opinions".
They're better than just blatant criticism without any ground.

Back to frying eggs on a pi 4.
I'm not disagreeing with you, because that would imply there is an avenue for debate. The conclusions in the post, and the recommendations that you subsequently make, are complete nonsense.
Rockets are loud.
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graphicw
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:43 pm

I have found a small fan to be of great assistance in dealing with heat. Any of the cases that include a fan work well. I use the Vilros case, heatsinks and fan on all my Pis. I can overclock to 1.8 GHz and GPU to 600 Mhz and still stay under 70 degrees Celsius running CPU Burn. This is a user solvable problem at the end of the day and can be done for very little cost. The Pi was designed for burst workloads but can be used at full power continuously as long as you prepare it to do so. The Pi is fine as is and it gives the consumer the freedom to do what they need to do use the machine at full power continuously while keeping the price lower for those that only need to use it for burst workloads.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:29 am

jdb wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:33 pm
ProDigit wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:47 pm

Feel free to disagree with me, but it would be nice to actually say what you're disagreeing on, and what you're calling "half-formed opinions".
They're better than just blatant criticism without any ground.

Back to frying eggs on a pi 4.
I'm not disagreeing with you, because that would imply there is an avenue for debate. The conclusions in the post, and the recommendations that you subsequently make, are complete nonsense.
I had exactly the same response about 8 years ago, when I suggested to use HDMI on a pi, and get rid of the TV/RGB out. It was ludicrous, and expensive, and I was a fool to even suggest it.
A few years later, I suggested another upgrade, which also was blatantly ignored on the forum, yet implemented a few years later in newer models. (I believe it was built in wifi, or something...).

Reducing temperatures on a pi 4B can only be done by a smaller die process. There is no other option for this. Other than further undervolt the CPU/GPU/RAM at idle, which will net a degree or two more.

The other ideas, are nice to have, but companies might not have such hardware pre-made or sold for cheap.
But if it was, it would be something to look for.

graphicw
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:01 am

ProDigit wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:29 am
jdb wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:33 pm
ProDigit wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:47 pm

Feel free to disagree with me, but it would be nice to actually say what you're disagreeing on, and what you're calling "half-formed opinions".
They're better than just blatant criticism without any ground.

Back to frying eggs on a pi 4.
I'm not disagreeing with you, because that would imply there is an avenue for debate. The conclusions in the post, and the recommendations that you subsequently make, are complete nonsense.
I had exactly the same response about 8 years ago, when I suggested to use HDMI on a pi, and get rid of the TV/RGB out. It was ludicrous, and expensive, and I was a fool to even suggest it.
A few years later, I suggested another upgrade, which also was blatantly ignored on the forum, yet implemented a few years later in newer models. (I believe it was built in wifi, or something...).

Reducing temperatures on a pi 4B can only be done by a smaller die process. There is no other option for this. Other than further undervolt the CPU/GPU/RAM at idle, which will net a degree or two more.

The other ideas, are nice to have, but companies might not have such hardware pre-made or sold for cheap.
But if it was, it would be something to look for.
Smaller die process comes at higher cost. RPI is a cost sensitive project and for good reason. The heat issue can be dealt with, you have to be proactive in your approach to dealing with it. First off, the Raspberry Pi will never actually overheat, it will simply throttle to prevent the doing so. If you need to run it at a higher performance, as I choose to, you need to add an active cooling solution. It is very inexpensive to do so. I fail to see an issue when those that choose to use the Pi for a burst type workload will never be faced with the issue that you and I face. Unlike you though, I solve my problems rather than complain about them. It would be a whole other issue if I could not cool the Pi with industry accepted methods. $79.99 and you get everything needed plus the 4 GB Pi to allow you to operate at full performance. That is an incredibly small price for something that allows you to have desktop like performance and use very little power in doing it. Not much to complain about here.

graphicw
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:07 am

You could always try one of those Rockchip systems but you will run into the same issue when you want to use it at full speed constantly. At the end of the day, you will need to have an active cooling solution regardless of what you go with if you want to have a consistent level of performance. Jetson requires active cooling and so does the Nintendo Switch which is more or less based off of Jetson. You will not get around it on any higher performance Arm system. Look at how many flagship phones and such throttle due to their limited heat shedding capability. Many of those flagship phones also use very small die processes and are still faced with throttling issues due to active cooling not being an option.

jamesh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:37 am

ProDigit wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:29 am
jdb wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:33 pm
ProDigit wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:47 pm

Feel free to disagree with me, but it would be nice to actually say what you're disagreeing on, and what you're calling "half-formed opinions".
They're better than just blatant criticism without any ground.

Back to frying eggs on a pi 4.
I'm not disagreeing with you, because that would imply there is an avenue for debate. The conclusions in the post, and the recommendations that you subsequently make, are complete nonsense.
I had exactly the same response about 8 years ago, when I suggested to use HDMI on a pi, and get rid of the TV/RGB out. It was ludicrous, and expensive, and I was a fool to even suggest it.
A few years later, I suggested another upgrade, which also was blatantly ignored on the forum, yet implemented a few years later in newer models. (I believe it was built in wifi, or something...).

Reducing temperatures on a pi 4B can only be done by a smaller die process. There is no other option for this. Other than further undervolt the CPU/GPU/RAM at idle, which will net a degree or two more.

The other ideas, are nice to have, but companies might not have such hardware pre-made or sold for cheap.
But if it was, it would be something to look for.
Being inaccurate is ok (just) , blatant lying is unacceptable.

You clearly know very little about the Pi.

1. Not been around for 8 years.
2. Always had HDMI.
3. Unless you work for either Pi or Broadcom, your suggestions were probably not even noticed. If indeed you actually made them. And I'm pretty sure you don't work for either of those given your subject knowledge level. That said, how interesting would it be to know what you suggested, who you suggested it to, and when.
4. There are other avenues to reduce heat than reducing die size.

So, since it's clear you are now just making stuff up, I thinks it's time for a holiday.
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bensimmo
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:52 am

I have just realised and appologies, if anyone reads my little work-through of using a SenseHAT (which might be more common again now the AstroPi challenge is back on).
I had left my Pi at the basic 1.75GHz overclock.

I'll have a look at the default speeds at some point for my own curiosity, but it was still very usable until video was introduced. Which at 1.75GHz means they do have room for 'Turbo Speed' bursts over the default.


What is very noticable is it takes hours for it too cool back down with a HAT on. It was still >60C many hours later just sat idle at the dektop.
Once it warms up, they cannot cool down much. You fill need to find an external fan to place on your bench to blow air across it.

If only the processor was on the other side, you could dump all the heat into the worktop or a metal slab and keep everything away from the HAT.


Of course I assume the PoE HAT is one HAT that would work perfectly as a HAT here.

Is the SDRAM beta bootloader firmware stable enough for testing (I've only used the VIA ab firmware so far)

(linked here if anyone missed it https://github.com/raspberrypi/rpi-eepr ... e-notes.md )

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jcyr
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:24 pm

I have set my fan controller to keep the temp no higher that 70C in order to prevent throttling at 80C. Is there an issue with running at 70C for extended periods? I'd assumed not, but RPF guidance would be welcome.
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

jamesh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:40 pm

jcyr wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:24 pm
I have set my fan controller to keep the temp no higher that 70C in order to prevent throttling at 80C. Is there an issue with running at 70C for extended periods? I'd assumed not, but RPF guidance would be welcome.
Not at all, it could run at 80 or 90 with no issues except burnt fingers. The MTBF is tested in ovens at over 120 and they still work. There is some lifespan reduction at higher temps but it is insignificant. I'm not sure there have ever been a Pi that has died of old age.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:46 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:40 pm
jcyr wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:24 pm
I have set my fan controller to keep the temp no higher that 70C in order to prevent throttling at 80C. Is there an issue with running at 70C for extended periods? I'd assumed not, but RPF guidance would be welcome.
Not at all, it could run at 80 or 90 with no issues except burnt fingers. The MTBF is tested in ovens at over 120 and they still work. There is some lifespan reduction at higher temps but it is insignificant. I'm not sure there have ever been a Pi that has died of old age.
Indeed...I expect my Pis to outlive me. Whether or not they outlive my grandson would be another issue.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:48 pm

ProDigit wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:29 am
Reducing temperatures on a pi 4B can only be done by a smaller die process. There is no other option for this. Other than further undervolt the CPU/GPU/RAM at idle, which will net a degree or two more.
This is trivially easy to falsify. Another method to reduce temperatures is to reduce the default clock frequency.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:55 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:48 pm
ProDigit wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:29 am
Reducing temperatures on a pi 4B can only be done by a smaller die process. There is no other option for this. Other than further undervolt the CPU/GPU/RAM at idle, which will net a degree or two more.
This is trivially easy to falsify. Another method to reduce temperatures is to reduce the default clock frequency.
Or you can gate off areas of the chip which are not being used, or a myriad of other power saving features,
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:24 pm

I have a Pi 4B, 4 gig version in a Pimoroni Pibow Coupe case with the Pimoroni Heatsink made for that case.
It would hit 80c with moderate use. Viewing one of my camera feeds in a browser window would do it. It took a while about 30 minutes.
I just today installed the Pimoroni Fan Shim. Its on a Booster header above the heatsink. With the stock daemon installed the fan turns on at 65c and off again at 55c. It takes about 20 seconds to cool it down to 55c. I was going to try it without the heatsink but I don't think I'll bother now. The way its currently working is fine by me. And the fan is whisper quiet. :D

alphanumeric
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:43 pm

I switched tactics. I stopped, and then disabled the service that controls the fan. Now it just runs continuously when the Pi is on. My temps are now around ~40c with moderate use. Half what I was getting with just the heat sink. And more constant with no swings up and down. :D

Crabber
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:05 am

Hi everyone! This my first post.

I have been dealing with a couple of RPI3's and a few zeros. I've been very satisfied with the products and their stability so far.
I bought the the RPI4 starter kit from thepihut. I flashed a fresh copy of the desktop version of Raspbian without the recommended software. I did the apt update/full-upgrade/upgrade procedure and the CPU temperature was at 85c during the whole process. Even when done, it stayed at 80c. I rebooted the device and still at 85c.
This wasn't the first the install, I 've had similar temperature problems before. I know RPI4 is running hot compared to previous products, but is this high really normal?

volt=0.8666V
config.txt here: https://pastebin.com/e9ahJAZ1

graphicw
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:36 am

Microprocessors are generally a long life item. My VIC 20 and Commodore still work after years of use through the 80s and 90s. I still use the C64 from time to time but I have had to refresh my disks several times over the years. Floppy disks last about 10 years but the computer hardware keeps working. Those 1541 drives are tanks. Lol

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PeterO
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:47 am

alphanumeric wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:43 pm
I switched tactics. I stopped, and then disabled the service that controls the fan. Now it just runs continuously when the Pi is on. My temps are now around ~40c with moderate use. Half what I was getting with just the heat sink. And more constant with no swings up and down. :D
But only a 3% change if you use Kelvin rather than Centigrade ;)
Mine is idle at 52°C in a Coupe, The fan-shim is on auto with 65°C-on 55°-off points.
Gordon Hollingworth convinced me there is no real benefit in over-cooling it 8-)
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ProDigit80
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:37 am

jamesh wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:37 am
ProDigit wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:29 am
jdb wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:33 pm


I'm not disagreeing with you, because that would imply there is an avenue for debate. The conclusions in the post, and the recommendations that you subsequently make, are complete nonsense.
I had exactly the same response about 8 years ago, when I suggested to use HDMI on a pi, and get rid of the TV/RGB out. It was ludicrous, and expensive, and I was a fool to even suggest it.
A few years later, I suggested another upgrade, which also was blatantly ignored on the forum, yet implemented a few years later in newer models. (I believe it was built in wifi, or something...).

Reducing temperatures on a pi 4B can only be done by a smaller die process. There is no other option for this. Other than further undervolt the CPU/GPU/RAM at idle, which will net a degree or two more.

The other ideas, are nice to have, but companies might not have such hardware pre-made or sold for cheap.
But if it was, it would be something to look for.
Being inaccurate is ok (just) , blatant lying is unacceptable.

You clearly know very little about the Pi.

1. Not been around for 8 years.
2. Always had HDMI.
3. Unless you work for either Pi or Broadcom, your suggestions were probably not even noticed. If indeed you actually made them. And I'm pretty sure you don't work for either of those given your subject knowledge level. That said, how interesting would it be to know what you suggested, who you suggested it to, and when.
4. There are other avenues to reduce heat than reducing die size.

So, since it's clear you are now just making stuff up, I thinks it's time for a holiday.
ProDigit has been a member since 2011, 8 years ago, and has been a part of Pi before it got released, and was still in development, and video output was still in debate whether or not it was going to have HDMI or Coax. So he (I) was right in a way.

alphanumeric
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:46 am

PeterO wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:47 am
alphanumeric wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:43 pm
I switched tactics. I stopped, and then disabled the service that controls the fan. Now it just runs continuously when the Pi is on. My temps are now around ~40c with moderate use. Half what I was getting with just the heat sink. And more constant with no swings up and down. :D
But only a 3% change if you use Kelvin rather than Centigrade ;)
Mine is idle at 52°C in a Coupe, The fan-shim is on auto with 65°C-on 55°-off points.
Gordon Hollingworth convinced me there is no real benefit in over-cooling it 8-)
PeterO
Mine idled at ~60c with just the desktop up. And steadily creeped up as soon as I started doing anything. I've seen it hit 80c on a few occasions, like doing an update upgrade, before I installed the Fan Shim.
Now its at ~30c on boot up and might hit 40 45 when doing stuff. I saw a 42 last night when I had a couple of camera feeds open in a browser. Will have to use it for a bit to see what temps I get with long term use.
I can always just reenable that service to get the auto on off function back if I want to go that route.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:30 pm

ProDigit80 wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:37 am
jamesh wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:37 am
ProDigit wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:29 am

I had exactly the same response about 8 years ago, when I suggested to use HDMI on a pi, and get rid of the TV/RGB out. It was ludicrous, and expensive, and I was a fool to even suggest it.
A few years later, I suggested another upgrade, which also was blatantly ignored on the forum, yet implemented a few years later in newer models. (I believe it was built in wifi, or something...).

Reducing temperatures on a pi 4B can only be done by a smaller die process. There is no other option for this. Other than further undervolt the CPU/GPU/RAM at idle, which will net a degree or two more.

The other ideas, are nice to have, but companies might not have such hardware pre-made or sold for cheap.
But if it was, it would be something to look for.
Being inaccurate is ok (just) , blatant lying is unacceptable.

You clearly know very little about the Pi.

1. Not been around for 8 years.
2. Always had HDMI.
3. Unless you work for either Pi or Broadcom, your suggestions were probably not even noticed. If indeed you actually made them. And I'm pretty sure you don't work for either of those given your subject knowledge level. That said, how interesting would it be to know what you suggested, who you suggested it to, and when.
4. There are other avenues to reduce heat than reducing die size.

So, since it's clear you are now just making stuff up, I thinks it's time for a holiday.
ProDigit has been a member since 2011, 8 years ago, and has been a part of Pi before it got released, and was still in development, and video output was still in debate whether or not it was going to have HDMI or Coax. So he (I) was right in a way.
So, you must be one of the dev team then. SInce I know all of the dev team personally, I'd be interested to know which one of them you are. Unless you mean you were a bystander and simply guessing as to its features.

As I was a member of that dev team, I know that the very first version of the Pi had HDMI, an was always going to have HDMI. I've just taken a look at my BRCM prototype board, it has HDMI. So really not sure what you really mean by this talk of HDMI.

Seems strange to me that someone who has been around for so long, still has rather a rudimentary and surprisingly inaccurate view of how this stuff works.
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