djvj
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Outdoor audio and high wattage speakers

Wed May 29, 2019 11:11 pm

I want to build a music player for my deck and going to go with these speakers, which are 100w:
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/polk-audio ... Id=5641007

Is there an amp or amp/DAC for the pi that can support 100w? Highest I found so far is 60w by highfiberry, but that leaves the speakers too underpowered.
Last edited by djvj on Wed May 29, 2019 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

drgeoff
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Re: Outdoor audio and high wattage speakers

Wed May 29, 2019 11:19 pm

djvj wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 11:11 pm
I want to build a music player for my deck and going to go with these speakers, which are 100w:
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/polk-audio ... Id=5641007

Is there a DAC for the pi that can support 100w? Highest I found so far is 60w by highfiberry, but that leaves the speakers too underpowered.
A DAC is a DAC and a power amplifier is a power amplifier. A DAC is not a power amplifier and a power amplifier is not a DAC.

Having said that there is nothing which prevents a unit containing both a DAC and a power amplifier. However if a suitable combination in one unit is not available there is recourse to two units. One containing a DAC and one containing a power amplifier.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

djvj
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Re: Outdoor audio and high wattage speakers

Wed May 29, 2019 11:42 pm

I meant Amp. I've been looking at both but mis-typed in my OP. Basically just looking for the pi solution that will power those speakers properly.

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Imperf3kt
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Re: Outdoor audio and high wattage speakers

Wed May 29, 2019 11:48 pm

The rating on the speakers is their maximum rating, not their nominal rating. You can drive the speakers with an amp capable of anything up to 100W, provided 100W is their RMS rating and not the peak rating.

I personally think the 60W would probably be enough. I've experimented with a 5W (2.5W per channel) amplifier connected to my Pi driving 4 Ohm, 30W speakers and at high volumes with just a single speaker it was easily audible from outside, having two rooms between the speaker and outside.

Of course, this is my opinion, you are free to disagree.
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djvj
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Re: Outdoor audio and high wattage speakers

Thu May 30, 2019 12:04 am

Thanks for the info!

I can try that Amp2 board, but I don't want to use the soundcard built onto the pi either. I assume I'd need to buy the DAC for it as well, but can both of them be mounted on the pi at the same time? I don't see much in pics or guides showing this. Or is that Amp2 board also providing it's own DAC as well and that's all I need?

mrreality13
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Re: Outdoor audio and high wattage speakers

Thu May 30, 2019 7:52 am

remember ,never approach a computer thinking this will only take a minute
~~pi zero w and a 3b+

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Burngate
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Re: Outdoor audio and high wattage speakers

Thu May 30, 2019 10:33 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 11:48 pm
The rating on the speakers is their maximum rating, not their nominal rating. You can drive the speakers with an amp capable of anything up to 100W, provided 100W is their RMS rating and not the peak rating.
Delving deeper into the specs for those speakers, it seems they're each 50W RMS.
Given they're 8Ω nominal, that means they need maximum 20V RMS, 28V peak to fully drive them.

The HiFiBerry DAC & amp could take up to 24V for its power supply, so in theory could give 36W RMS to each speaker.
But that, of course, assumes you like listening to sine waves.

LTolledo
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Re: Outdoor audio and high wattage speakers

Thu May 30, 2019 12:09 pm

as posted on another topic
One RPiZeroW
with Pimoroni pHAT DAC
2.4A PSU
WiFi connection to network
connected to 2 units of 4-speaker capable 600W RMS amp,
also connected to another unit of 5-speaker 300W RMS amp

that's my "Party Animal RPi"

can add more amps if I want to....

the "connected" means hard wired ....using RCA cables.....
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Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

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timinski
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Re: Outdoor audio and high wattage speakers

Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:35 pm

I have set up systems here in Canada for myself and friends using the HiFiberry Amp2. The sound is wonderful.

As previously mentioned by others, the Amp2 is both a DAC and a power amp rated to 60W / channel. Currently listening to one powering two Pioneer SP-F552 towers rated at 6ohms. Beautiful sound. I almost never crank it to full as it's just too loud.

The audio app I use is piCorePlayer and for my library I use Logitech Media Server. Multiroom sync works like a charm.

Good luck!

DocWu
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Re: Outdoor audio and high wattage speakers

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:56 am

"Delving deeper into the specs for those speakers, it seems they're each 50W RMS.
Given they're 8Ω nominal, that means they need maximum 20V RMS, 28V peak to fully drive them."

The speedometer on your car's dash goes up to 140 mph, but you don't drive that way very often.

It doesn't mean the speakers NEED 20V RMS, 28V peak, it means they should survive that.

A speaker set capable of handling up to 100W does not need a 100W amplifier to work. If you like the speakers, get them. Then use an amplifier that provides enough power to fill the area you want at the sound level you want.

I would not consider an amplifier that is a pi hat, except for very low power levels. There are many good DACs that fit as a hat, though. Choose a separate amplifier module. You'd be surprised what 20 or 50 watts will do.

emma1997
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Re: Outdoor audio and high wattage speakers

Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:17 am

djvj wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 11:11 pm
I want to build a music player for my deck and going to go with these speakers, which are 100w:
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/polk-audio ... Id=5641007

Is there an amp or amp/DAC for the pi that can support 100w? Highest I found so far is 60w
The difference between 60w and 100w is generally undetectable to the average human. You need 4x or 10x to make a difference. People in general are piss poor at judging output power. I had to laugh many years ago convincing a few friends that my setup was 250w but in reality less than 3w from the tiny module hidden behind the Macintosh. lol

Another fun fact, BIG speakers are louder and take less power than small ones.

Unlikely there will ever be a high power hat. As Burngate hints, the PSU voltage needs to be far more than 5v or 12v. More than double or triple that and lots of amps too. Too much for a Pi hat.

If big sound is really needed I suspect one or two of those Ebay $4 100w class d boards and a cheap Meanwell clone would suffice. I've a few scattered around the house, couple with Pi, and they do a great job annoying neighbors.

dustnbone
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Re: Outdoor audio and high wattage speakers

Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:05 am

If you're not stuck with the Pi form factor, there are many wonderful audio amplifiers out there in the used market.

For the price of the Amp2 you could buy something on craigslist that will happily blow those speakers to kingdom come.

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Burngate
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Re: Outdoor audio and high wattage speakers

Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:20 am

emma1997 wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:17 am
The difference between 60w and 100w is generally undetectable to the average human. You need 4x or 10x to make a difference. People in general are piss poor at judging output power.
60W to 100W is less than 3dB. The human ear can't usually detect less than 6dB

Back before Covid-19, you went to see a decent band they'd have a wall of speakers behind them, impressing the fans with the kilowatts of sound.
Earlier than that, round 1965, we'd have a local band round, and sell tickets to make some money for the scouts (as well as what scouts do when there are girls around). The Drummer didn't have an amp, but the three guitars each had a 30W amp. I don't remember it being too quiet, though I was more interested in the girls.

LTolledo
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Re: Outdoor audio and high wattage speakers

Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:51 pm

@OP what is the desired {audio db value at x distance} for your pet project?

150db at 5 meters or so?
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hippy
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Re: Outdoor audio and high wattage speakers

Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:07 pm

DocWu wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:56 am
I would not consider an amplifier that is a pi hat, except for very low power levels. There are many good DACs that fit as a hat, though. Choose a separate amplifier module. You'd be surprised what 20 or 50 watts will do.
I have never understood the desire for a HAT with DAC+Amp for high power when DAC plus separate Amp is so much easier.

I helped a friend build a 1kW rig with bridged amp boards which weren't much bigger than a Pi board. The power supply was rather larger, and a lot heavier.

LTolledo
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Re: Outdoor audio and high wattage speakers

Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:47 pm

just showing my built up units
RPiDesktopSetups.jpg
RPiDesktopSetups.jpg (195.4 KiB) Viewed 1915 times

RPi3B+ (background) and RPi4B-4G (foreground)
both with Suptronics X400 v3 DAC-Amp rated 2 x 30W (8ohms) at 24v
my speakers are Okyo bookshelf speakers rated 50w at 6ohms each
these are pretty good setup for room amplifier, DAC volume set at 50%, source volume set variable between 50% to 75%
40db to 60db at 0.5m.... just enough for good easy listening. :D
hippy wrote: I have never understood the desire for a HAT with DAC+Amp for high power when DAC plus separate Amp is so much easier.
I totally agree with this. As I mentioned in my first post in this topic, I used a RPiZW with pHAT DAC for that kind of setup
RPiZW HiFi sources.jpg
RPiZW HiFi sources.jpg (187.68 KiB) Viewed 1915 times
it just need a 1A PSU, WiFi connection, and audio cable connection to high power amplifier deck + speaker set of choice.

there are quite a few good deck amplifiers that can be sourced from 2nd hand stores....
"Don't come to me with 'issues' for I don't know how to deal with those
Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

Some people be like:
"Help me! Am drowning! But dont you dare touch me nor come near me!"

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