jahboater
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Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:35 pm

In the past my 3B+ would reach 70C and then drop the frequency down to 1200Mhz from 1400Mhz.
Now, with the latest Raspbian 27-06-2018 I see it is doing this at 60C instead :(

How can I restore the performance I had with the previous Rasbian release?

Compiling a large program with make -j4 is enough to reach 60C but not 70C, so I have lost 200Mhz!!

The config.txt settings are unchanged, and my Pi3+ has always been completely stable.

Code: Select all

Time      Temp    CPU        Throttle        Vcore
00:53:40 40.8'C  600MHz 0000000000000000000 1.2V
00:53:50 53.7'C 1400MHz 0000000000000000000 1.3750V
00:54:01 60.1'C 1200MHz 0000000000000000000 1.2688V
00:54:11 60.1'C 1200MHz 0000000000000000000 1.2688V
00:54:21 62.3'C 1200MHz 0000000000000000000 1.2688V
00:54:32 62.8'C 1200MHz 0000000000000000000 1.2688V

klricks
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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:37 am

jahboater wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:35 pm
In the past my 3B+ would reach 70C and then drop the frequency down to 1200Mhz from 1400Mhz.
Now, with the latest Raspbian 27-06-2018 I see it is doing this at 60C instead :(

How can I restore the performance I had with the previous Rasbian release?

Compiling a large program with make -j4 is enough to reach 60C but not 70C, so I have lost 200Mhz!!

The config.txt settings are unchanged, and my Pi3+ has always been completely stable.

Code: Select all

Time      Temp    CPU        Throttle        Vcore
00:53:40 40.8'C  600MHz 0000000000000000000 1.2V
00:53:50 53.7'C 1400MHz 0000000000000000000 1.3750V
00:54:01 60.1'C 1200MHz 0000000000000000000 1.2688V
00:54:11 60.1'C 1200MHz 0000000000000000000 1.2688V
00:54:21 62.3'C 1200MHz 0000000000000000000 1.2688V
00:54:32 62.8'C 1200MHz 0000000000000000000 1.2688V
It is my understanding that no throttling occurs at all until 85C.
The CPU clock is dynamically changed depending on load.

What does vcgencmd get_throttled show? If 0 then throttling has not happened since last boot.
Unless specified otherwise my response is based on the latest and fully updated Raspbian Buster w/ Desktop OS.

jahboater
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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:37 am

klricks wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:37 am
It is my understanding that no throttling occurs at all until 85C.
The CPU clock is dynamically changed depending on load.
No. The Pi3+ is different.
The Pi3+ goes to 70C then the speed drops by 200MHz (with get_throttled still showing zero).
Then when it reaches 80C it starts throttling back further small amounts at a time, and this time get_throttled shows the bits set.
What does vcgencmd get_throttled show? If 0 then throttling has not happened since last boot.
The "Throttle" column in my first post shows the bits - the output from "vcgencmd get_throttled", all zero.

What is happening now is that the first stage commences at 60C instead of 70C, which is a shame as a large software build gets the temp to just over 60C. With the last Raspbian release, the speed stayed at 1400MHz indefinitely.

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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:58 am

Keep it cool then....
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jahboater
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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:04 am

When this heatwave in the UK is over ...

Its already very well passively cooled.
Adding a fan would probably work, but I refuse to do that, especially just for this "fix"

I tried force_turbo, but it doesn't work.

Does anyone know of a setting in /boot/config.txt ?

jahboater
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[SOLVED] Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:12 am

If you know your Pi3+ is stable under load (does not lockup),
then this will restore the old behavior :-

temp_soft_limit=70

in /boot/config.txt

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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:43 am

I wasn't aware of any changes to the speed governing, will ask around tomorrow.
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jahboater
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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:47 am

jamesh wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:43 am
I wasn't aware of any changes to the speed governing, will ask around tomorrow.
An engineer kindly replied on github:
https://github.com/raspberrypi/firmware ... -401599394

temp_soft_limit=70

works fine if you know the board is stable.

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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:17 pm

Ah, just popped back to post about that as just saw the github report. Thanks for reporting.
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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:09 am

Thanks jahboater's hints!

Will it work if I set this temp_soft_limit parameter to 75, so it will still try to run at 1.4GHz under, say 72 degree? Or, if I want my Pi3B+ just run 1.2GHz maximium (never run at 1.4GHz), will it work if I set it to say, 0?

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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:23 am

bertlea wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:09 am
Thanks jahboater's hints!

Will it work if I set this temp_soft_limit parameter to 75, so it will still try to run at 1.4GHz under, say 72 degree? Or, if I want my Pi3B+ just run 1.2GHz maximium (never run at 1.4GHz), will it work if I set it to say, 0?
One might suspect that it you set it to 0, the Pi3B+ would run at 600MHz...or possibly shut down altogether because the throttle threshold would be below ambient (assuming you're not running it outside on a cold day...or in your freezer). Alternatively, depending on how the program is written, it might either cause an error condition or be taken as "use default behavior".

jahboater
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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:48 am

bertlea wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:09 am
Thanks jahboater's hints!

Will it work if I set this temp_soft_limit parameter to 75, so it will still try to run at 1.4GHz under, say 72 degree? Or, if I want my Pi3B+ just run 1.2GHz maximium (never run at 1.4GHz), will it work if I set it to say, 0?
No, it is capped at 70
I have no idea what setting it to zero might do.
Use:

vcgencmd get_config int

to see whats actually been set.

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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:51 am

jahboater wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:48 am
bertlea wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:09 am
Thanks jahboater's hints!

Will it work if I set this temp_soft_limit parameter to 75, so it will still try to run at 1.4GHz under, say 72 degree? Or, if I want my Pi3B+ just run 1.2GHz maximium (never run at 1.4GHz), will it work if I set it to say, 0?
No, it is capped at 70
I have no idea what setting it to zero might do.
Use:

vcgencmd get_config int

to see whats actually been set.
I'll ask around, see specifically what has been done, then update the docs to match.
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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:06 am

OK, so mostly as above - when the temperature reaches the temp_soft_limit value, it starts a linear reduction in clock speed and voltage based on temperature from that point onward. Note this is 3B+ ONLY. All other devices should stay the same.

Not sure if there is a lower limit, but it should be unnecessary to make it less than 60, and many people will be able to safely raise it to 70, which I believe is the maximum.

Edit: Added the new config to the docs here https://github.com/raspberrypi/documentation/pull/931. Needs to go through copy edit so website won't be live for a few days.
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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:52 am

jamesh wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:06 am
OK, so mostly as above - when the temperature reaches the temp_soft_limit value, it starts a linear reduction in clock speed and voltage based on temperature from that point onward. Note this is 3B+ ONLY. All other devices should stay the same.

Not sure if there is a lower limit, but it should be unnecessary to make it less than 60, and many people will be able to safely raise it to 70, which I believe is the maximum.

Edit: Added the new config to the docs here https://github.com/raspberrypi/documentation/pull/931. Needs to go through copy edit so website won't be live for a few days.
I'm not sure if this (and your modified text) is correct.
The 3B+ was advertised with the following specs:
It runs at 1400 MHz until temp. reaches 70 C. Then it is switched back to 1200 MHz. If the temp. reaches 80 C, step by step reduction of the clock starts.
What seems to have been changed is that the switch from 1400 to 1200 Mhz now takes place at 60 C by default (which means a considerable loss of processing power and doesn't match the official 3B+ specs).
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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:06 am

gkreidl wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:52 am
jamesh wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:06 am
OK, so mostly as above - when the temperature reaches the temp_soft_limit value, it starts a linear reduction in clock speed and voltage based on temperature from that point onward. Note this is 3B+ ONLY. All other devices should stay the same.

Not sure if there is a lower limit, but it should be unnecessary to make it less than 60, and many people will be able to safely raise it to 70, which I believe is the maximum.

Edit: Added the new config to the docs here https://github.com/raspberrypi/documentation/pull/931. Needs to go through copy edit so website won't be live for a few days.
I'm not sure if this (and your modified text) is correct.
The 3B+ was advertised with the following specs:
It runs at 1400 MHz until temp. reaches 70 C. Then it is switched back to 1200 MHz. If the temp. reaches 80 C, step by step reduction of the clock starts.
What seems to have been changed is that the switch from 1400 to 1200 Mhz now takes place at 60 C by default (which means a considerable loss of processing power and doesn't match the official 3B+ specs).
You are correct, I've misunderstood what someone told me. I'll update the entry.

Can you link to the official specs that define that process? Cannot find them. Got this https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/ra ... el-b-plus/
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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:46 am

jamesh wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:06 am
gkreidl wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:52 am
jamesh wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:06 am
OK, so mostly as above - when the temperature reaches the temp_soft_limit value, it starts a linear reduction in clock speed and voltage based on temperature from that point onward. Note this is 3B+ ONLY. All other devices should stay the same.

Not sure if there is a lower limit, but it should be unnecessary to make it less than 60, and many people will be able to safely raise it to 70, which I believe is the maximum.

Edit: Added the new config to the docs here https://github.com/raspberrypi/documentation/pull/931. Needs to go through copy edit so website won't be live for a few days.
I'm not sure if this (and your modified text) is correct.
The 3B+ was advertised with the following specs:
It runs at 1400 MHz until temp. reaches 70 C. Then it is switched back to 1200 MHz. If the temp. reaches 80 C, step by step reduction of the clock starts.
What seems to have been changed is that the switch from 1400 to 1200 Mhz now takes place at 60 C by default (which means a considerable loss of processing power and doesn't match the official 3B+ specs).
You are correct, I've misunderstood what someone told me. I'll update the entry.

Can you link to the official specs that define that process? Cannot find them. Got this https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/ra ... el-b-plus/
It was in the official announcement of the 3B+ on the main RPi blog page.
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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:51 pm

gkreidl wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:46 am
jamesh wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:06 am
gkreidl wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:52 am

I'm not sure if this (and your modified text) is correct.
The 3B+ was advertised with the following specs:
It runs at 1400 MHz until temp. reaches 70 C. Then it is switched back to 1200 MHz. If the temp. reaches 80 C, step by step reduction of the clock starts.
What seems to have been changed is that the switch from 1400 to 1200 Mhz now takes place at 60 C by default (which means a considerable loss of processing power and doesn't match the official 3B+ specs).
You are correct, I've misunderstood what someone told me. I'll update the entry.

Can you link to the official specs that define that process? Cannot find them. Got this https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/ra ... el-b-plus/
It was in the official announcement of the 3B+ on the main RPi blog page.
Blog post != official specification.

Also in the post BTW "Alongside a 200MHz increase in peak CPU clock frequency, we have roughly three times the wired and wireless network throughput, and the ability to sustain high performance for much longer periods.". Emphasis mine.
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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:42 am

jamesh wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:51 pm
Blog post != official specification.

Also in the post BTW "Alongside a 200MHz increase in peak CPU clock frequency, we have roughly three times the wired and wireless network throughput, and the ability to sustain high performance for much longer periods.". Emphasis mine.
From the original blog post announcing the 3B+:
The improved power integrity of the BCM2837B0 package, and the improved regulation accuracy of our new MaxLinear MxL7704 power management IC, have allowed us to tune our clocking and voltage rules for both better peak performance and longer-duration sustained performance.

Below 70°C, we use the improvements to increase the core frequency to 1.4GHz. Above 70°C, we drop to 1.2GHz, and use the improvements to decrease the core voltage, increasing the period of time before we reach our 80°C thermal throttle; the reduction in power consumption is such that many use cases will never reach the throttle. Like a modern smartphone, we treat the thermal mass of the device as a resource, to be spent carefully with the goal of optimising user experience.
This isn't true any more with the latest firmware release using the default settings. And this modification has been introduced without notifying the users.
Even with good additional cooling [e. g. using aFLIRC case] it will be hard to keep the temperature below 60 C for any 4 Core heavy duty task, while keeping it below 70 C should be possible.
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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:34 am

gkreidl wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:42 am
jamesh wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:51 pm
Blog post != official specification.

Also in the post BTW "Alongside a 200MHz increase in peak CPU clock frequency, we have roughly three times the wired and wireless network throughput, and the ability to sustain high performance for much longer periods.". Emphasis mine.
From the original blog post announcing the 3B+:
The improved power integrity of the BCM2837B0 package, and the improved regulation accuracy of our new MaxLinear MxL7704 power management IC, have allowed us to tune our clocking and voltage rules for both better peak performance and longer-duration sustained performance.

Below 70°C, we use the improvements to increase the core frequency to 1.4GHz. Above 70°C, we drop to 1.2GHz, and use the improvements to decrease the core voltage, increasing the period of time before we reach our 80°C thermal throttle; the reduction in power consumption is such that many use cases will never reach the throttle. Like a modern smartphone, we treat the thermal mass of the device as a resource, to be spent carefully with the goal of optimising user experience.
This isn't true any more with the latest firmware release using the default settings. And this modification has been introduced without notifying the users.
Even with good additional cooling [e. g. using aFLIRC case] it will be hard to keep the temperature below 60 C for any 4 Core heavy duty task, while keeping it below 70 C should be possible.
Correct, by default that is no longer true. There are many places in the blog and elsewhere where stuff has changed since it was written. We do not go back and rewrite history. There are also many things we have changed over the last 5th years without specfic notification.

However you can set it back to 70 using the command quoted above. That should work for most people.
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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:09 am

jamesh wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:34 am
Correct, by default that is no longer true. There are many places in the blog and elsewhere where stuff has changed since it was written. We do not go back and rewrite history. There are also many things we have changed over the last 5th years without specfic notification.
This rather pertinently ties in with recent discussions about tutorials and other information on a Pi often being out of date, people not updating what they have written nor marking it as outdated or superseded. In general, not only with respect to RPF(T) postings.

It does beg the question how anyone is meant to realise there has been a change if that is not announced, when the official specification is no longer entirely correct, how they are meant to deal with a situation which appears to be different to what the latest available information says.

One can have hours of frustration, wasting time and effort, trying to figure out why something does not seem to match how it is said to be; only to be told, "yea; we changed that, but didn't tell anyone, didn't document it anywhere".

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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:20 pm

hippy wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:09 am
jamesh wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:34 am
Correct, by default that is no longer true. There are many places in the blog and elsewhere where stuff has changed since it was written. We do not go back and rewrite history. There are also many things we have changed over the last 5th years without specfic notification.
This rather pertinently ties in with recent discussions about tutorials and other information on a Pi often being out of date, people not updating what they have written nor marking it as outdated or superseded. In general, not only with respect to RPF(T) postings.

It does beg the question how anyone is meant to realise there has been a change if that is not announced, when the official specification is no longer entirely correct, how they are meant to deal with a situation which appears to be different to what the latest available information says.

One can have hours of frustration, wasting time and effort, trying to figure out why something does not seem to match how it is said to be; only to be told, "yea; we changed that, but didn't tell anyone, didn't document it anywhere".
It's where you draw the line - do you notify everything, nothing or somewhere in between. Finding that inbetween point is difficult. Of course, anyone who can use github would be able to see all the ARM/linux side changes, so its only the VC4 firmware side that are actually hidden.

This sort of thing should probably go in an announcements thread.
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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:32 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:20 pm
It's where you draw the line - do you notify everything, nothing or somewhere in between. Finding that inbetween point is difficult. Of course, anyone who can use github would be able to see all the ARM/linux side changes, so its only the VC4 firmware side that are actually hidden.

This sort of thing should probably go in an announcements thread.
The problem is understood, and something like your solution would probably help, though even there a line has to drawn as to what is too trivil to mention. The "unannounced change" (that I considered significant) was switching the Pi2B from using the BCM2836 to using the BCM2837. Something like that is--I think--well over the line of the non-trivial. On the hardware side, probably anything that causes a board revision should get a notice posted. On the software side, anything that breaks compatibility or impacts performance (in *either* direction) should probably generate a notification.

The change to the soft temp limit certainly affects performance and thus ought to generate some form of notification. (Mind you, I don't see it affecting anything *I* do, but it matters to some people.)

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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:49 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:32 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:20 pm
It's where you draw the line - do you notify everything, nothing or somewhere in between. Finding that inbetween point is difficult. Of course, anyone who can use github would be able to see all the ARM/linux side changes, so its only the VC4 firmware side that are actually hidden.

This sort of thing should probably go in an announcements thread.
The problem is understood, and something like your solution would probably help, though even there a line has to drawn as to what is too trivil to mention. The "unannounced change" (that I considered significant) was switching the Pi2B from using the BCM2836 to using the BCM2837. Something like that is--I think--well over the line of the non-trivial. On the hardware side, probably anything that causes a board revision should get a notice posted. On the software side, anything that breaks compatibility or impacts performance (in *either* direction) should probably generate a notification.

The change to the soft temp limit certainly affects performance and thus ought to generate some form of notification. (Mind you, I don't see it affecting anything *I* do, but it matters to some people.)
The Pi2 is still made in both variants AFAIK....
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Re: Pi3+ throttling back at 60C instead of 70C with new Raspbian

Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:43 pm

At the very least it should be in the changlog of Raspbian release.

After some quite minor changes, all that is mentioned is.
Raspberry Pi firmware 748fb17992426bb29d99224b93cb962fefbdc833
That says nothing to the user.
This New throttling, the Ethernet fixes, new config.sys setting available... all these technical details are missing from this update.

:-)

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