Tecd0c
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Re: STICKY: TUTORIAL: Update NOOBS without Re-Installing It (When Your Raspberry Pi 3B+ Will Not Boot!)

Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:53 pm

I'm using a Raspberry Zero W to convert the Image for a Raspberry Pi 3B+.

My problem is that I depend on a program written by a company that seems not willing to update their program for current OS (Stretch).
The programs runs on the older Jessie Lite. if I update to Stretch the program does not run anymore as it needs the libGLSv2.so.
I understand that this librarys got updated from Broadcom and the name is changed to libbcmGLSv2.so.

So I'm using the last 2017-07-05-raspbian-jessie-lite release and use Etcher or Win32DiskImager to burn it to a 8GB or 16GB SD.

The Raspberry Zero W boots up with that and I'm able to go through your instructions.

Everything seems ok, but once I insert the SD into the Raspberry Pi 3B+ and boot, I see the Raspberry Logo with Mouse support and the message: waiting for sd card (setting partition)

What is going wrong on mine site?
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Thank you!

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RPi_Mike
Posts: 200
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Location: United States

Re: STICKY: TUTORIAL: Update NOOBS without Re-Installing It (When Your Raspberry Pi 3B+ Will Not Boot!)

Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:26 am

Tecd0c wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:53 pm
So I'm using the last 2017-07-05-raspbian-jessie-lite release..... Everything seems ok, but once I insert the SD into the Raspberry Pi 3B+ and boot, I see the Raspberry Logo with Mouse support and the message: waiting for sd card (setting partition)..... What is going wrong on mine site?

I'm the author of this tutorial.

I can't help but notice that nowhere in your post do you actually mention anything about having NOOBS – even though that's what my entire tutorial is about!

Instead, you only mention that you have Raspbian Jessie Lite.

Most people that have "Raspbian Lite" would have probably just installed "Raspbian Lite".

In other words, they would not have bothered to first install "NOOBS Lite" – and then use that to install "Raspbian Lite".

That is just my statistical sense, of course – I fully realize that you may have indeed taken that more circuitous route for some unknown reason.

Either way, I don't have too much to say on this. My tutorial is extremely comprehensive and covers all the bases. [If I sound boastful, it's not that at all – it's simply that I put a tremendous amount of hard work into my tutorial and I know where it stands.]

In fact, it's now been viewed nearly 13,000 times – enough to fill a good-sized sports arena. In all those views, not a single person has reported a problem.

Actually, there was ONE single person who did report a "problem" – but it literally doesn't count!

That's because he specifically chose to "violate" my very clear instructions. In his case, he tried to update a version of NOOBS from before November 2015 – even though my tutorial explicitly states that it will NOT work for systems older than November 2015!

However, the very knowledgeable developer of PINN – a user by the name of procount – tends to be a bit more forgiving and "friendly" on these matters. So perhaps at some point he might chime in.

Tecd0c
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:18 pm

Re: STICKY: TUTORIAL: Update NOOBS without Re-Installing It (When Your Raspberry Pi 3B+ Will Not Boot!)

Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:03 pm

First of all - Thank you for your answer! You might have recognized from my writing, that English is not my native language. I should have stated before, that I'm new to Raspberry in general. So please forgive, if I misunderstood someting wrong.
In fact that was basically it. As from your original post I did only understand that it will work with Jessie-Lite if not older than 2015.
So the Image I was using was from 2017. I was guessing that Noobs ist included into that Image (in general).
I did not understand that Noobs is kind of Setup program that you can use to install a OS. I thought that it is included in the OS...

So of course it is my fault, as I used Etcher to install the Jessie-Lite Image instead..

I have it now, and Jessie-Lite is running on my Raspberry 3B+.
Thank you for reading!
Regards
Stefan

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RPi_Mike
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Location: United States

Re: STICKY: TUTORIAL: Update NOOBS without Re-Installing It (When Your Raspberry Pi 3B+ Will Not Boot!)

Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:15 am

Tecd0c wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:03 pm
Thank you for your answer! ..... You might have recognized from my writing, that English is not my native language ..... I have it now, and Jessie-Lite is running on my Raspberry 3B+.

You're welcome!

And by the way – your English is quite good!

Although I noticed a couple tiny "glitches", I honestly just assumed they were typos. I had no clue that English was not your native language!

jjl64
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:09 pm

Re: STICKY: TUTORIAL: Update NOOBS without Re-Installing It (When Your Raspberry Pi 3B+ Will Not Boot!)

Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:24 pm

Hello,

Is it possible to easily adapt the tutorial for someone who only has a 3B+ and who is trying to boot it from an older SD card image?

I ask because I have downloaded a bootable SD image from UV4L with which to run their webRTC demo
(see: https://www.linux-projects.org/rpi-vide ... e-demo-os/ ) and the SD image exhibits this thunderbolt problem in my 3B+. Naturally I have asked them to provide an updated image but just in case I don't hear back from them anytime soon, is there a way I might update their image using just my 3B+ ? I'm wondering if doing so may be a quicker and easier path for me, as I am only just beginning to familiarize myself with Janus and webRTC.

Thanks,

John

jjl64
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:09 pm

Re: STICKY: TUTORIAL: Update NOOBS without Re-Installing It (When Your Raspberry Pi 3B+ Will Not Boot!)

Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:58 pm

jjl64 wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:24 pm
Hello,

Is it possible to easily adapt the tutorial for someone who only has a 3B+ and who is trying to boot it from an older SD card image?

I ask because I have downloaded a bootable SD image from UV4L with which to run their webRTC demo
(see: https://www.linux-projects.org/rpi-vide ... e-demo-os/ ) and the SD image exhibits this thunderbolt problem in my 3B+. Naturally I have asked them to provide an updated image but just in case I don't hear back from them anytime soon, is there a way I might update their image using just my 3B+ ? I'm wondering if doing so may be a quicker and easier path for me, as I am only just beginning to familiarize myself with Janus and webRTC.

Thanks,

John

And the answer appears to be "no."

The UV4L image referred to above is Jessie, not Stretch.

I actually got the thing to boot on the 3B+ after copying bootcode.bin and start*.elf onto the old image card, but it doesn't recognize the ethernet port and most likely a lot of other things too. Oh, well. Nevermind.

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RPi_Mike
Posts: 200
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Re: STICKY: TUTORIAL: Update NOOBS without Re-Installing It (When Your Raspberry Pi 3B+ Will Not Boot!)

Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:05 am

jjl64 wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:24 pm
I have downloaded a bootable SD image from UV4L with which to run their webRTC demo and the SD image exhibits this thunderbolt [will not boot] problem in my 3B+. Naturally I have asked them to provide an updated image but just in case I don't hear back from them anytime soon, is there a way I might update their image using just my 3B+ ?

NOTE: The Raspberry Pi's official website follows a "just once" policy for email notifications. If another post has been made to the same topic, no additional notifications will be sent – unless the user has logged back in during the intervening time and re-visited the topic!

Perhaps they wish to reduce the strain on their servers or not flood people's inboxes.

Whatever the reason, I never saw your 2nd post until now.

That's unfortunate, considering I spent a good amount of time writing my response to your 1st post!

Nonetheless, since I took the time to write it, I'm sending the whole thing anyway:


----------
Your question reminds me of theory versus reality.

In theory, there are all kinds of wonderful "projects" you can do on a computer.

In reality, you better be prepared to spend hours, days, weeks or even years to make it happen!

In many cases, it gets even worse: Time and effort may prove to be insufficient and your goals will never be achieved.

Unless some pioneer has already blazed the trail by publishing a clearly written, step-by-step tutorial that doesn't "assume knowledge" and skip over essential details, the vast majority of people will be dead in the water. This is especially true when it involves complex things like video.

But it gets even worse than that: Unless these tutorials are continuously updated to reflect the never-ending changes in the "software environment", the instructions will often expire and fail to work.

In my experience, most "tutorials" on the Internet are not even worthy of the name.

As if that weren't enough, for a whole bunch of cultural and psychological reasons, the few "gurus" who truly understand "how to do it" tend to be quite useless. That's because they typically suffer from the "curse of knowledge" and lack the temperament or cognitive ability to explain things to a wider audience.

Why? Because everything is "so obvious" to them!

Or, if they do know how to explain things with sufficient detail and clarity, they typically don't bother sharing their privileged insights. After all, they already know how to do it – so it's not a problem for them!

In fact, if you look at the most advanced and prolific posters on this website, most of them have NEVER posted a single tutorial. Never – not once.

I may not be a guru, but I have taken the time to write a series of comprehensive tutorials that take everything I just said into account. I try to write high-impact tutorials that address extremely common things that many people would appreciate – like my tutorials on playing videos or viewing images.

So, back to your question:

I can tell you already know this, but your query is definitely off-topic. You're asking about an "alien" operating system that has nothing to do with my tutorial or NOOBS. [Other than the fact the alien system you're asking about is somehow "based" on an old version of Raspbian – and the title of my tutorial coincidentally includes the phrase "won't boot"]

Nonetheless, I understand your frustration and I realize you were just fishing for an answer.

So here's my suggestion – a suggestion that may or may not work. I say this because I'm not about to take a deep dive on your project or learn about some random operating system you found on the Internet. But based on my quick take, it's what I would try if I were in your shoes:

One way or another, get your hands on a Raspberry model that's older than the 3B+. A model 3B or even a Raspberry 2 will do just fine. Maybe a friend can let you borrow one. You only need to get your hands on it for about 5 minutes.

Then, use the older Raspberry to boot the old operating system you found.

Once it's up and running, simply connect to the Internet and run the following command:

sudo rpi-update

With a bit of luck, that will update your "boot code". At that point, just pop the SD card into the 3B+ and it just might boot!

I wager that my suggestion has a 35% chance of working. If it does, it does – if it doesn't, it doesn't!

Note to all the other Raspberry users out there: Unless an expert has specifically told you to do so for a specific reason, you should not run this command.

PS: I just read your other post in the Graphics forum. This is not the place for discussing it, but try the outstanding motionEyeOS. It just might meet your "video monitoring" needs. Over WiFi, the latency is just a few seconds.

gabo_71096
Posts: 5
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Re: STICKY: TUTORIAL: Update NOOBS without Re-Installing It (When Your Raspberry Pi 3B+ Will Not Boot!)

Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:16 pm

First of all, love your post my friend, this is an excellent tutorial!

Second of all, I have a question, I only have a Raspberry Pi 3B+, it's my first one ever, my question is, can I go back from the actual os version (Raspbian Buster with NOOBS), to Jessie directly from my raspberry without having any previous Raspberry model (like pi 3b, or pi 2)? I'm working with LabVIEW and I'm trying to connect my project with my rasp, but LINX (the interface that allows me to communicate) is only compatible with Jessie, so I get errors when I try to connect with my Rasp running Buster.

Is there any way that I can downgrade my os directly from my Raspberry Pi 3B+?

I tried burning a Jessie img to my rasp, but only ended with a freeze in the rainbow screen with a lightning bolt, that was before I even knew that Jessie is unsopported in Pi 3B+ (my bad). :lol:

Any help would be excellent!

Again, thanks for your post!

Gabriel López
Try until it works!

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RPi_Mike
Posts: 200
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Location: United States

Re: STICKY: TUTORIAL: Update NOOBS without Re-Installing It (When Your Raspberry Pi 3B+ Will Not Boot!)

Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:45 pm

gabo_71096 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:16 pm
First of all, love your post my friend, this is an excellent tutorial!

Second of all, I have a question, I only have a Raspberry Pi 3B+, it's my first one ever, my question is, can I go back from the actual os version (Raspbian Buster with NOOBS), to Jessie directly from my raspberry without having any previous Raspberry model (like pi 3b, or pi 2)? I'm working with LabVIEW and I'm trying to connect my project with my rasp, but LINX (the interface that allows me to communicate) is only compatible with Jessie, so I get errors when I try to connect with my Rasp running Buster.

Is there any way that I can downgrade my os directly from my Raspberry Pi 3B+?

I tried burning a Jessie img to my rasp, but only ended with a freeze in the rainbow screen with a lightning bolt, that was before I even knew that Jessie is unsopported in Pi 3B+ (my bad). :lol:

Any help would be excellent!

Again, thanks for your post!

Gabriel López

PROBLEM SUMMARY:
I had to re-read your post a few times before I fully understood your requirements. So, for the benefit of others, here's a quick summary of the situation:

He needs to use a critical piece of third-party software called LINX. This would allow him to access and control various sensors and other devices with a sophisticated piece of systems engineering software called LabVIEW.

Unfortunately, according to him, LINX is only compatible with a Raspberry operating system from two generations ago – Raspbian Jessie.

Compounding his problem is the fact that the only Raspberry hardware he has is the relatively recent model 3B+ – a model that was introduced AFTER the "Jessie era" had already ended. As a result, Jessie is not designed to run on the 3B+.

And, if he attempts to install Jessie on the model 3B+, it will not boot. Any computer that doesn't boot is obviously not going to be running any software!

So there ya go – that's his predicament!


MY ANSWER:
Theoretically, I could probably do everything you want – and do it all within the very strict parameter you've defined.

The strict parameter, of course, is that I would have to do everything on a model 3B+ – without being allowed to even touch the older model 3B.

That's a very strict parameter because my tutorial was written for people who ALREADY had an older Raspberry and were looking to move their existing software system to the newer hardware. That means they had the luxury of being able to "prep" a working copy of Jessie on their older Raspberry to get it ready for the NEW Raspberry that was about to arrive in the mail. They could then take that SD card from the old 3B and pop it in to the new 3B+ – and BOOM, everything would work.

But unlike them, you don't have a 3B to work with. All you have is the newer 3B+.

So that's the catch!

In order for me to figure out how to do exactly what you want, I would still need to get my hands on the older model 3B. I would then install Jessie on it. That part would be no problem, since the older Raspberry is specifically designed to work with that old operating system.

I would then make a copy of all the boot-related files and folders in order to get a "snapshot" of the system at that moment in time.

I would then update the boot code by using a special hash with the rpi-update command to get the SD card "3B+ ready".

At that point, I would do an exhaustive binary compare to determine exactly what changed on the SD card that allowed Jessie to boot on the 3B+.

Once I knew the "secret" and was able to copy all the relevant files, you could hide the model 3B from me and I'd probably be able to perform the "magic trick" you want – getting the 3B+ to boot on Jessie without having access to a 3B. In other words, I would use the older Raspberry as a tool to "reverse engineer" the Jessie system and get it to run on the newer Raspberry!

So yes – with access to the older 3B and a bunch of tedious work, it can probably be done.

But realistically, that's not going to happen – unless someone has already done that obscure experiment and is willing to publish their findings.

So the bottom line is that you need to get your hands on a model 3B. Since it's an older model, you can probably get a used one for a very low price. Or maybe you can borrow one from a friend. Or you can even buy a brand-new one. They're readily available all over the world. If you're involved with heavy-duty systems engineering work, I'm guessing you can probably afford a few dozen bucks.

So, once you get a model 3B, this is what you need to do:

Burn the most recent available image of Raspbian Jessie onto a new SD card – or an old card you don't care about.

Notice I said "Raspbian Jessie", not "NOOBS with Raspbian Jessie". To avoid making things ten times harder, you'll definitely want to use "pure" Raspbian. Adding NOOBS into the mix would complicate things dramatically. And given what you're trying to do, there's no reason to use NOOBS anyway.

Here's the URL to the most recent version of "pure" Raspbian Jessie:

http://downloads.raspberrypi.org/raspbi ... 017-07-05/

Once you burn the image and boot up the 3B, run these 5 command lines – in this exact order:

sudo apt-get update

sudo apt-get dist-upgrade

reboot

sudo rpi-update 461ee53cef85d14b8511e9f6d5dce8c0ac1d595a

reboot

That's it!

The rpi-update command line will install Linux kernel version 4.14.37, which was issued by the Raspberry Pi Foundation on April 26, 2018 – almost 6 weeks after the 3B+ came out. If all goes well, that will also update your "firmware", including the boot code. At that point, the SD card and Jessie should be "3B+ ready". Just pop it into the 3B+ and you should be able to use LINX!

Is there any guarantee that an unsupported "operating system downgrade" on a newer Raspberry will even work?

Nope! There are no guarantees at all – but you can certainly give it a try.

PS: Feel free to send my commentary to the developers of LINX. That way, they can see first-hand how extremely difficult it is for modern Raspberry users to even consider using their software. Several million Raspberries are being sold each year for industrial purposes – so it's certainly a market worth supporting with up-to-date software.

gabo_71096
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm
Location: Chile
Contact: Website

Re: STICKY: TUTORIAL: Update NOOBS without Re-Installing It (When Your Raspberry Pi 3B+ Will Not Boot!)

Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:02 am

RPi_Mike wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:45 pm
PROBLEM SUMMARY:
I had to re-read your post a few times before I fully understood your requirements. So, for the benefit of others, here's a quick summary of the situation:

He needs to use a critical piece of third-party software called LINX. This would allow him to access and control various sensors and other devices with a sophisticated piece of systems engineering software called LabVIEW.

Unfortunately, according to him, LINX is only compatible with a Raspberry operating system from two generations ago – Raspbian Jessie.

Compounding his problem is the fact that the only Raspberry hardware he has is the relatively recent model 3B+ – a model that was introduced AFTER the "Jessie era" had already ended. As a result, Jessie is not designed to run on the 3B+.

And, if he attempts to install Jessie on the model 3B+, it will not boot. Any computer that doesn't boot is obviously not going to be running any software!

So there ya go – that's his predicament!


MY ANSWER:
Theoretically, I could probably do everything you want – and do it all within the very strict parameter you've defined.

The strict parameter, of course, is that I would have to do everything on a model 3B+ – without being allowed to even touch the older model 3B.

That's a very strict parameter because my tutorial was written for people who ALREADY had an older Raspberry and were looking to move their existing software system to the newer hardware. That means they had the luxury of being able to "prep" a working copy of Jessie on their older Raspberry to get it ready for the NEW Raspberry that was about to arrive in the mail. They could then take that SD card from the old 3B and pop it in to the new 3B+ – and BOOM, everything would work.

But unlike them, you don't have a 3B to work with. All you have is the newer 3B+.

So that's the catch!

In order for me to figure out how to do exactly what you want, I would still need to get my hands on the older model 3B. I would then install Jessie on it. That part would be no problem, since the older Raspberry is specifically designed to work with that old operating system.

I would then make a copy of all the boot-related files and folders in order to get a "snapshot" of the system at that moment in time.

I would then update the boot code by using a special hash with the rpi-update command to get the SD card "3B+ ready".

At that point, I would do an exhaustive binary compare to determine exactly what changed on the SD card that allowed Jessie to boot on the 3B+.

Once I knew the "secret" and was able to copy all the relevant files, you could hide the model 3B from me and I'd probably be able to perform the "magic trick" you want – getting the 3B+ to boot on Jessie without having access to a 3B. In other words, I would use the older Raspberry as a tool to "reverse engineer" the Jessie system and get it to run on the newer Raspberry!

So yes – with access to the older 3B and a bunch of tedious work, it can probably be done.

But realistically, that's not going to happen – unless someone has already done that obscure experiment and is willing to publish their findings.

So the bottom line is that you need to get your hands on a model 3B. Since it's an older model, you can probably get a used one for a very low price. Or maybe you can borrow one from a friend. Or you can even buy a brand-new one. They're readily available all over the world. If you're involved with heavy-duty systems engineering work, I'm guessing you can probably afford a few dozen bucks.

So, once you get a model 3B, this is what you need to do:

Burn the most recent available image of Raspbian Jessie onto a new SD card – or an old card you don't care about.

Notice I said "Raspbian Jessie", not "NOOBS with Raspbian Jessie". To avoid making things ten times harder, you'll definitely want to use "pure" Raspbian. Adding NOOBS into the mix would complicate things dramatically. And given what you're trying to do, there's no reason to use NOOBS anyway.

Here's the URL to the most recent version of "pure" Raspbian Jessie:

http://downloads.raspberrypi.org/raspbi ... 017-07-05/

Once you burn the image and boot up the 3B, run these 5 command lines – in this exact order:

sudo apt-get update

sudo apt-get dist-upgrade

reboot

sudo rpi-update 461ee53cef85d14b8511e9f6d5dce8c0ac1d595a

reboot

That's it!

The rpi-update command line will install Linux kernel version 4.14.37, which was issued by the Raspberry Pi Foundation on April 26, 2018 – almost 6 weeks after the 3B+ came out. If all goes well, that will also update your "firmware", including the boot code. At that point, the SD card and Jessie should be "3B+ ready". Just pop it into the 3B+ and you should be able to use LINX!

Is there any guarantee that an unsupported "operating system downgrade" on a newer Raspberry will even work?

Nope! There are no guarantees at all – but you can certainly give it a try.

PS: Feel free to send my commentary to the developers of LINX. That way, they can see first-hand how extremely difficult it is for modern Raspberry users to even consider using their software. Several million Raspberries are being sold each year for industrial purposes – so it's certainly a market worth supporting with up-to-date software.
Thanks a lot my friend for your information, I know that my problem was kind of difficult to understand, but you answered just what I needed to know.
I will try to get to the LINX people and tell them this about this issue, as for my project, I will try to get a Raspberry 3B from a friend or buy one, thanks again for the excellent answer! Really appreciate it.
Try until it works!

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