pauliunas
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:43 am

Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Wed May 23, 2018 7:40 pm

jahboater wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 7:38 pm
pauliunas wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 6:49 pm
but if you guys love comparing speeds so much,
Make it work, then make it fast ...
but judging by the amount of posts made on this thread and their content, measuring speed or arbitrary benchmark scripts is what y'all do all day long, isn't it? ;D

jahboater
Posts: 2624
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Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Wed May 23, 2018 7:45 pm

pauliunas wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 7:40 pm
but judging by the amount of posts made on this thread and their content, measuring speed or arbitrary benchmark scripts is what y'all do all day long, isn't it? ;D
Well I am retired, so I can spend time tweaking my own code for extra speed. It can be fun.

But never at work. Especially never micro-optimization at work.

Heater
Posts: 9219
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Wed May 23, 2018 8:01 pm

pauliunas,
Nah they're not really slow :) I just probably messed up with optimization settings, because I don't know anything about them.
I know almost nothing about C# and friends but the only optimization setting I could find was "-optimize", which helped somewhat. I can't see much that can be done to optimize the actual source code
Anyway, just how likely would it be for you to waste your time digging around the spaghetti of Windows source code if it ever were released publicly?
Extremely unlikely. Same as it is that I go digging around in Linux code. I don't have the skill or time for it.
Just like any other big spaghetti software. If it works it works, there's no need to have the source code for that
My desire for open source systems is not about me personally digging around in millions of lines of spaghetti software. Although I have suggested bug fixes to open source projects on rare occasions.

Rather it is about not having my systems be dependent on a single corporation, in a foreign country, over which I have no control.

And, how do we know it works? Looks like it does. Who knows what is lurking in there?

Heater
Posts: 9219
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Wed May 23, 2018 8:11 pm

pauliunas,
but judging by the amount of posts made on this thread and their content, measuring speed or arbitrary benchmark scripts is what y'all do all day long, isn't it?
Looks that way doesn't it?

Believe it or not my days are filled with work and all the other thing life entails. Fiddling around here on the forum is what I do when other people might be watching TV or whatever it is normal people do :)

Anyway, this benchmarking thing started as response to this post here: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=206449#p1317074 Which was clearly misguided and cried out for some comment as to why.

pauliunas
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:43 am

Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Sun May 27, 2018 11:02 am

Heater wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 8:01 pm
pauliunas,
Nah they're not really slow :) I just probably messed up with optimization settings, because I don't know anything about them.
I know almost nothing about C# and friends but the only optimization setting I could find was "-optimize", which helped somewhat. I can't see much that can be done to optimize the actual source code
Anyway, just how likely would it be for you to waste your time digging around the spaghetti of Windows source code if it ever were released publicly?
Extremely unlikely. Same as it is that I go digging around in Linux code. I don't have the skill or time for it.
Just like any other big spaghetti software. If it works it works, there's no need to have the source code for that
My desire for open source systems is not about me personally digging around in millions of lines of spaghetti software. Although I have suggested bug fixes to open source projects on rare occasions.

Rather it is about not having my systems be dependent on a single corporation, in a foreign country, over which I have no control.

And, how do we know it works? Looks like it does. Who knows what is lurking in there?
We do know that it works because it works. If it didn't work, you wouldn't be able to use it. That's how the world works, my friend ;)

And yeah, you're dependent on some people in a foreign country. But you can say the same about open source projects. You aren't gonna jump in and fix problems with Linux if they appear, you'll just let other people handle it. And you have absolutely no control over who does what with your Linux distribution either. So it's the same, except that corporations hire well trained specialists with high salaries (motivation), whereas open source projects are mostly maintained by volunteers working on their spare time (less motivation).

Heater
Posts: 9219
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Sun May 27, 2018 12:13 pm

pauliunas,
We do know that it works because it works. If it didn't work, you wouldn't be able to use it. That's how the world works, my friend
Clearly I should have been clearer on what I meant by "it works".

Yes it looks like it works. But we don't know what is in there. We have no way to tell under what circumstances it will not work. We have no idea what backdoors have been built into it. Should any of those things come to light, as they have done in Windows for decades, we have no way to fix them. My Windows 10 machine, and no doubt everyone else's, looks like it works. Until it decides to update at a critical moment. Or a driver update breaks it. Or it keeps turning telemetry things on after I have turned them off. Etc, etc.
And yeah, you're dependent on some people in a foreign country. But you can say the same about open source projects.
Perhaps. But if the owners of an Open Source project stop support, or develop it in way people don't like then if the project is important and widely used it may well get forked by others and development continued. Famous examples of this are: OpenOffice/Libre Office, MySql/MariaDB, various forks of whole Linux distributions so as to avoid using Systemd.

Meanwhile, there are Linux distributions from many places in the world to choose from.
You aren't gonna jump in and fix problems with Linux if they appear, you'll just let other people handle it.
Me personally, probably I won't have the skill or time to get seriously into fixing/modifying big complex projects. But I know people who do. Sometimes their developments get adopted by the upstream project.
And you have absolutely no control over who does what with your Linux distribution either.
Sure I do. I can switch to another distribution. There are so many to choose from. In the extreme I can build my own Linux system. I have done that three or four times before.
So it's the same...
No. As you see above, it's totally different.
...except that corporations hire well trained specialists with high salaries (motivation), whereas open source projects are mostly maintained by volunteers working on their spare time (less motivation).
Err, no.

A lot of Open Source projects are started/maintained/contributed to by corporations who pay software engineers good salaries to work on the Open Source code.

Examples:

A lot, probably most, of the work on the Linux kernel is done by paid professionals working for the likes of IBM, Google and a mass of smaller companies, including the Pi Foundation no doubt. Good grief even Microsoft contributes to the Linux kernel!

Clang/LLVM the C/C++ compiler built by Google and Apple among others.

I'm sure a lot of Python modules are created by paid engineers whose employers want to use Python.

MariaDB, maintained by a company.

Cockroach DB, built by a Cockroach Labs. A bunch of ex-google engineers.

Node.js, the V8 Javascript engine in there is built by Google, the node.js run time is backed by a company.

The Chrome and Firefox browsers, Google and Mozilla respectively.

And so on and so on. The idea that Open Source software is created by lone anmature nerds in their basements is largely a myth.

Finally, I refute the claim that Open Source developers have less motivation. Money might be a good motivator to work on a project, until someone offers you more to work on something else. But dedication to a cause, like creating an Open Source computing environment for the world, can be a bigger and longer motivation.

You really should look into how the Open Source world works before making incorrect assertions about it.

pauliunas
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:43 am

Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Sun May 27, 2018 12:19 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 12:13 pm
pauliunas,
We do know that it works because it works. If it didn't work, you wouldn't be able to use it. That's how the world works, my friend
Clearly I should have been clearer on what I meant by "it works".

Yes it looks like it works. But we don't know what is in there. We have no way to tell under what circumstances it will not work. We have no idea what backdoors have been built into it. Should any of those things come to light, as they have done in Windows for decades, we have no way to fix them. My Windows 10 machine, and no doubt everyone else's, looks like it works. Until it decides to update at a critical moment. Or a driver update breaks it. Or it keeps turning telemetry things on after I have turned them off. Etc, etc.
And yeah, you're dependent on some people in a foreign country. But you can say the same about open source projects.
Perhaps. But if the owners of an Open Source project stop support, or develop it in way people don't like then if the project is important and widely used it may well get forked by others and development continued. Famous examples of this are: OpenOffice/Libre Office, MySql/MariaDB, various forks of whole Linux distributions so as to avoid using Systemd.

Meanwhile, there are Linux distributions from many places in the world to choose from.
You aren't gonna jump in and fix problems with Linux if they appear, you'll just let other people handle it.
Me personally, probably I won't have the skill or time to get seriously into fixing/modifying big complex projects. But I know people who do. Sometimes their developments get adopted by the upstream project.
And you have absolutely no control over who does what with your Linux distribution either.
Sure I do. I can switch to another distribution. There are so many to choose from. In the extreme I can build my own Linux system. I have done that three or four times before.
So it's the same...
No. As you see above, it's totally different.
...except that corporations hire well trained specialists with high salaries (motivation), whereas open source projects are mostly maintained by volunteers working on their spare time (less motivation).
Err, no.

A lot of Open Source projects are started/maintained/contributed to by corporations who pay software engineers good salaries to work on the Open Source code.

Examples:

A lot, probably most, of the work on the Linux kernel is done by paid professionals working for the likes of IBM, Google and a mass of smaller companies, including the Pi Foundation no doubt. Good grief even Microsoft contributes to the Linux kernel!

Clang/LLVM the C/C++ compiler built by Google and Apple among others.

I'm sure a lot of Python modules are created by paid engineers whose employers want to use Python.

MariaDB, maintained by a company.

Cockroach DB, built by a Cockroach Labs. A bunch of ex-google engineers.

Node.js, the V8 Javascript engine in there is built by Google, the node.js run time is backed by a company.

The Chrome and Firefox browsers, Google and Mozilla respectively.

And so on and so on. The idea that Open Source software is created by lone anmature nerds in their basements is largely a myth.

Finally, I refute the claim that Open Source developers have less motivation. Money might be a good motivator to work on a project, until someone offers you more to work on something else. But dedication to a cause, like creating an Open Source computing environment for the world, can be a bigger and longer motivation.

You really should look into how the Open Source world works before making incorrect assertions about it.
well then IF windows does something you don't like, choose another OS. There are many to choose from. But it seems like you're just butthurt about them not showing you the code which you wouldn't be able to read anyway.

Heater
Posts: 9219
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Sun May 27, 2018 1:08 pm

pauliunas,
well then IF windows does something you don't like, choose another OS. There are many to choose from.
Obviously that is what I do.

But consider: If I invest a lot of time and effort into building a system based on Windows IoT it likely not so easy to swap my development over to some other OS should I find out that I need to. It would no doubt end up with a lot of dependencies on WinIoT and the Azure cloud.

Not to mention that before I start WinIoT already dictates that I need Windows 10 to even get the thing installed and start work.
But it seems like you're just butthurt about them not showing you the code which you wouldn't be able to read anyway.
I am not, as you most charmingly put it, "butthurt" about anything. I am more than happy with the Ocean of Open Source solutions available today. It's a great time in computing today.

I'm just pointing out that getting locked in to such a single supplier is perhaps not such a wise idea.

Now tell me, why are you so keen to promote, or at least defend, such lock in ?

pauliunas
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:43 am

Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Sun May 27, 2018 1:27 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 1:08 pm
pauliunas,
well then IF windows does something you don't like, choose another OS. There are many to choose from.
Obviously that is what I do.

But consider: If I invest a lot of time and effort into building a system based on Windows IoT it likely not so easy to swap my development over to some other OS should I find out that I need to. It would no doubt end up with a lot of dependencies on WinIoT and the Azure cloud.

Not to mention that before I start WinIoT already dictates that I need Windows 10 to even get the thing installed and start work.
But it seems like you're just butthurt about them not showing you the code which you wouldn't be able to read anyway.
I am not, as you most charmingly put it, "butthurt" about anything. I am more than happy with the Ocean of Open Source solutions available today. It's a great time in computing today.

I'm just pointing out that getting locked in to such a single supplier is perhaps not such a wise idea.

Now tell me, why are you so keen to promote, or at least defend, such lock in ?
because it's so much better than linux :)

And because even if Windows was open source, that wouldn't make it easier from you to move from it to Linux.. you would still be "locked in" as you say. I was responding to your comment where you said "I'm not using this shit until it becomes open source"

Heater
Posts: 9219
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Sun May 27, 2018 1:49 pm

pauliunas,
because it's so much better than linux
Ah, I see, you are just trolling. OK. All good fun.

Just incase you are not trolling, my question was not about which OS is technically superior to what other OS. It was about your defending the lockin of a single supplier.
And because even if Windows was open source, that wouldn't make it easier from you to move from it to Linux.. you would still be "locked in" as you say
Perhaps likely I would be dependant on the WinIoT OS. But given a proper Open Source license (Note the capitalization there, it's important) users of such an OS would not be locked in to Microsoft. They would have the freedom to do what they like with it. That is a big difference.
I was responding to your comment where you said "I'm not using this shit until it becomes open source"
It's very bad form, and dishonest, to make up literal quotes and ascribe them to people who never said them. Please don't do that.

pauliunas
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:43 am

Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Thu May 31, 2018 5:22 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 1:49 pm
pauliunas,
because it's so much better than linux
Ah, I see, you are just trolling. OK. All good fun.

Just incase you are not trolling, my question was not about which OS is technically superior to what other OS. It was about your defending the lockin of a single supplier.
And because even if Windows was open source, that wouldn't make it easier from you to move from it to Linux.. you would still be "locked in" as you say
Perhaps likely I would be dependant on the WinIoT OS. But given a proper Open Source license (Note the capitalization there, it's important) users of such an OS would not be locked in to Microsoft. They would have the freedom to do what they like with it. That is a big difference.
I was responding to your comment where you said "I'm not using this shit until it becomes open source"
It's very bad form, and dishonest, to make up literal quotes and ascribe them to people who never said them. Please don't do that.
ehm... you're trolling, right?

Heater
Posts: 9219
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Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Thu May 31, 2018 6:15 pm

No. Why would you think so?

pauliunas
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:43 am

Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Thu May 31, 2018 6:28 pm

Heater wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 6:15 pm
No. Why would you think so?
totally random accusations and all that bullshit with capitalization.

jahboater
Posts: 2624
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:38 pm

Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Thu May 31, 2018 7:02 pm

:) Heater does not troll - unless perhaps the subject is Javascript :)
Look at the number of posts.

pauliunas
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:43 am

Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Thu May 31, 2018 7:11 pm

jahboater wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 7:02 pm
:) Heater does not troll - unless perhaps the subject is Javascript :)
Look at the number of posts.
well he/she could be a very dedicated troll :mrgreen:

Heater
Posts: 9219
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Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Thu May 31, 2018 8:59 pm

pauliunas,
totally random accusations and all that bullshit with capitalization.
What?!

1) I almost never use capitalization in any post anywhere on the net except as is called for by good grammar. I challenge you to link us to any example of my using capitalization.

2) Of course none of my posts are "bullshit" as you so charmingly put it. They may well be wrong mind you. I'm always open to being corrected as to factual errors. My opinions, perhaps not so much. Again, I challenge you to link us to any example of my "bullshit".

3) I do not make random accusations. In fact I almost never accuse anybody of anything. Unless I'm sure of my facts, can back it up, and it is serious enough to bother with. Once again, I challenge you to link us to any example of my supposed random accusations.

4) jahboater. Yeah, I know, sorry, I go overboard about the Javascript thing. Somebody has to around here :)

5) Yes, I know. I have been trolled again. Or "baited" as we used to say in pre-net times. Ah well, such is the internet.

pauliunas
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:43 am

Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:46 am

Heater wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 8:59 pm
pauliunas,
totally random accusations and all that bullshit with capitalization.
What?!

1) I almost never use capitalization in any post anywhere on the net except as is called for by good grammar. I challenge you to link us to any example of my using capitalization.

2) Of course none of my posts are "bullshit" as you so charmingly put it. They may well be wrong mind you. I'm always open to being corrected as to factual errors. My opinions, perhaps not so much. Again, I challenge you to link us to any example of my "bullshit".

3) I do not make random accusations. In fact I almost never accuse anybody of anything. Unless I'm sure of my facts, can back it up, and it is serious enough to bother with. Once again, I challenge you to link us to any example of my supposed random accusations.

4) jahboater. Yeah, I know, sorry, I go overboard about the Javascript thing. Somebody has to around here :)

5) Yes, I know. I have been trolled again. Or "baited" as we used to say in pre-net times. Ah well, such is the internet.
"Open Source license (Note the capitalization there, it's important)" - this would be ridiculous if it weren't cringy.

Heater
Posts: 9219
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:43 am

pauliunas,

Ah, OK, my apologies. When you said "bullshit with capitalization" I thought you meant that silly thing that people do on the net, writing in all uppercase to add emphasis, often known as "SHOUTING".

Why on earth would my use of "Open Source license" be bullshit, or ridiculous or cringy? Those words are capitalized for a reason. Do you know what that reason is?

pauliunas
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:43 am

Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:45 am

Heater wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:43 am
pauliunas,

Ah, OK, my apologies. When you said "bullshit with capitalization" I thought you meant that silly thing that people do on the net, writing in all uppercase to add emphasis, often known as "SHOUTING".

Why on earth would my use of "Open Source license" be bullshit, or ridiculous or cringy? Those words are capitalized for a reason. Do you know what that reason is?
yeah, cringy.

Heater
Posts: 9219
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:54 am

pauliunas,
yeah, cringy.
Please elaborate. I don't know what you mean.

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mahjongg
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Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:30 am

Well it seems someone doesn't like open-source licensing. boo-hoo.

please keep it civic, if this thread goes off the rails I will wield the ban-hammer... :roll: :evil:

ejolson
Posts: 1544
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Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:05 pm

mahjongg wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:30 am
Well it seems someone doesn't like open-source licensing. boo-hoo.

please keep it civic, if this thread goes off the rails I will wield the ban-hammer... :roll: :evil:
I was just wondering whether to keep my civic or trade it in for an accord.

It does seem like we are far from the original topic:

1. Does C# on Windows IoT support the GPIO device?

2. How much faster is C# running on Windows IoT compared to Mono on Raspbian?

I think it would be nice to have some satisfying factual answers to these questions.

The proposed speed test based on generation of random numbers is interesting. Note that the random number generator is linear as is the mixing process used to generate the final answer. As a result, there likely exists a simple polynomial which directly jumps from the initial state of the random number generator directly to the final answer printed. Never mind that: It is unlikely that any compiler created within the next 20 years would automatically perform such an optimization.

A number of years ago Microsoft licensed Intel proprietary code generators to make Visual Studio more competitive with existing gcc and LLVM open source compliers. Recently, Microsoft added LLVM as a possible backend to Visual Studio. Soon afterwards Intel announced that they will cease working on proprietary compilers and instead directly integrate their compiler innovations with open source tools.

Based on conjecture, I would expect that C# on IoT supports GPIO and to be 30 percent to 2 times faster than C# on Mono.

pauliunas
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:43 am

Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:03 pm

ejolson wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:05 pm
mahjongg wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:30 am
Well it seems someone doesn't like open-source licensing. boo-hoo.

please keep it civic, if this thread goes off the rails I will wield the ban-hammer... :roll: :evil:
I was just wondering whether to keep my civic or trade it in for an accord.

It does seem like we are far from the original topic:

1. Does C# on Windows IoT support the GPIO device?

2. How much faster is C# running on Windows IoT compared to Mono on Raspbian?

I think it would be nice to have some satisfying factual answers to these questions.

The proposed speed test based on generation of random numbers is interesting. Note that the random number generator is linear as is the mixing process used to generate the final answer. As a result, there likely exists a simple polynomial which directly jumps from the initial state of the random number generator directly to the final answer printed. Never mind that: It is unlikely that any compiler created within the next 20 years would automatically perform such an optimization.

A number of years ago Microsoft licensed Intel proprietary code generators to make Visual Studio more competitive with existing gcc and LLVM open source compliers. Recently, Microsoft added LLVM as a possible backend to Visual Studio. Soon afterwards Intel announced that they will cease working on proprietary compilers and instead directly integrate their compiler innovations with open source tools.

Based on conjecture, I would expect that C# on IoT supports GPIO and to be 30 percent to 2 times faster than C# on Mono.
Thanks for the insight.
In my understanding, Microsoft's implementation should work better than a third party port (Mono). But Microsoft also has their own implementation for Linux, which is .NET Core. The same thing runs on Windows IoT. Since it's pretty much the same implementation, the speed should be identical, but then other things such as hardware drivers and background services come to play. I suppose Raspbian has much more background processes running, but on the other hand, Microsoft doesn't have a good track record when it comes to using ARM architecture so they probably have shitty drivers.
It would also be interesting to hear something about power consumption and heat, not only pure performance.
And I know it's impossible to compare them objectively, but I just wanted to have a discussion with someone who maybe has used both :) and posts like yours are also interesting to read.

pauliunas
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:43 am

Re: .NET Core - Raspbian or Win10IoT?

Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:06 pm

mahjongg wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:30 am
Well it seems someone doesn't like open-source licensing. boo-hoo.

please keep it civic, if this thread goes off the rails I will wield the ban-hammer... :roll: :evil:
I don't have anything against open source lol... I just don't like when people talk about such things as if it was their almighty God or something :D

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