alnaseh
Posts: 60
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Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:30 pm

Hi,

my development depends on Java. I have migrate everything to Java 9. now java 9 is not working on armv6.
I mange to install it for Pi 3 from Debian repository and is working fine. now the issue is with the armv6 or mainly about BCM2835. is there a plan to migrate it to BCM2837, the same as the later Pi 2.

similar issue was in one of the serial library for java and it was not supporting as well armv6 on the older Java 8.

Currently the Debian armhf port requires at least an Armv7 CPU

Oracle stopped shipping arm packages for java 9. the only option is the openJDK from debian at this stage.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:32 pm

If there is a plan to move the Pi0/Pi0W to an ARMv7 or ARMv8 core, nothing has been said about it. And--if truth be known--nothing would be said about it until there was a product launch.

So far as I know, the BCM2837 is not set up to take PoP RAM and without that, there is no way use it on the Pi0/Pi0W boards. One of the ways that the manufacturing cost on the boards is held down is to have components on only one side of the board...and there isn't anywhere on the top of these boards to put something the size of the RAM package. In addition, the bill of materials (BoM) for the Pi0/Pi0W is *extremely* price sensitive and it is unclear that a BCM2837 can be sourced within the BoM budget.

My own guess is that the only way that a newer design for the SoC on the Pi0/Pi0W will happen is if there is an interim design on the way to whatever goes on the Pi4 that meets the following criteria:
1. A 28nm part.
2. Single ARMv7 or ARMv8 core (probably ARMv8)
3. Design costs are written off as an experiment.
4. The SoC is set up to use PoP RAM.
I will leave it to others to speculate about the chances of all of that to come togehter (I'm not going to hold my breath waiting).

In the mean time, what you might hope for is the announced (but with no timing) release of the Pi3A, which is supposed to be a Pi3B without the LAN chip and associated connections in a Model A+ form factor. I will say that, at this time, I fear that the Pi3A will go the way of the Pi2A and we will be "promised" a Pi4A. The problem here is that, ever since the original Model B, the B-series Pis have been so popular that it is hard to anticipate volume accurately enough to allow for supplies of the needed SoC and manufacturing capacity to make A-series boards. And note that the one "failure" of a Pi model, the original Model A--which was late--sold "only" about 100K. At least at that time sales of 100K boards would have made any other SBC maker deliriously happy and they would have considered it to be a wild success.

Edit add... There are some other possibilities to solve your problem. Take a look at the CM3 and CM3L. If you want to use on-board eMMC flash storage but 4GB isn't enough, consider the NEC CM3 variant with 16GB on board. You could also contact Element 14 about their custom Pi manufacturing program. It is unlikely (though not, I think, impossible) that they could make a Pi0/Pi0W variant with the BCM2837. More likely would be a custom run of the Pi3A which--I suspect--might be a set design (it was originally slated to be released last year if one takes Dr. Upton's remarks literally). In any case, custom boards aren't cheap and you'd have to order something like 3000 to 5000 of them initially. There is a long-shot chance that there would be no engineering charges for having them make a batch of Pi3A boards.

hippy
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:17 pm

It seems unlikely to me that the Pi Zero W would be upgraded to a BCM2837 but one never knows until it happens or doesn't. Maybe it will be next February's 'launch anniversary surprise' but I wouldn't bet any money on it.

Pi fragmentation was always going to happen and is pretty much unavoidable, is likely only to get worse as time goes on.

One can't blame the Foundation for bringing out new variants using better SoC's, with more memory and faster speeds, needing to have differences across boards in order to meet price targets.

And one can't always blame software suppliers when they target particular variants and neglect the others. I do think software suppliers could often do a much better job of supporting older and different variants. They could make things easier and better for users but don't. More often than not it seems they won't, not because they cannot, but because they choose not to. But it's their decision to make.

One can always choose not to use software which comes from those who don't strive to support older variants, or stick with software which does, but that's not always desirable.

One just has to suck it up and accept that's the way it is, no matter how difficult that makes things.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:40 pm

alnaseh wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:30 pm
Hi,

my development depends on Java. I have migrate everything to Java 9. now java 9 is not working on armv6.
I mange to install it for Pi 3 from Debian repository and is working fine. now the issue is with the armv6 or mainly about BCM2835. is there a plan to migrate it to BCM2837, the same as the later Pi 2.

similar issue was in one of the serial library for java and it was not supporting as well armv6 on the older Java 8.

Currently the Debian armhf port requires at least an Armv7 CPU

Oracle stopped shipping arm packages for java 9. the only option is the openJDK from debian at this stage.

The easiest answer is to not use JAVA, there are plenty of cross platform / architecture alternatives.

Hoping for an upgrade of the RPi ARMv6 models does not solve immediate issues.....
Retired disgracefully.....

jamesh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:19 pm

What the problem with using OpenJDK?
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alnaseh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:46 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:32 pm
Edit add... There are some other possibilities to solve your problem. Take a look at the CM3 and CM3L. If you want to use on-board eMMC flash storage but 4GB isn't enough, consider the NEC CM3 variant with 16GB on board. You could also contact Element 14 about their custom Pi manufacturing program. It is unlikely (though not, I think, impossible) that they could make a Pi0/Pi0W variant with the BCM2837. More likely would be a custom run of the Pi3A which--I suspect--might be a set design (it was originally slated to be released last year if one takes Dr. Upton's remarks literally). In any case, custom boards aren't cheap and you'd have to order something like 3000 to 5000 of them initially. There is a long-shot chance that there would be no engineering charges for having them make a batch of Pi3A boards.
thank you but the CM3 is not practical for me due to the size of the whole board.

alnaseh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:56 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:19 pm
What the problem with using OpenJDK?
it is not working. i have installed openjdk-9-jdk-headless and is working fine in Pi3. the same is not working on Pi0W. Debian armhf port requires at least an Armv7 CPU

openjdk-9 is not available in raspberrypi repository.

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HawaiianPi
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:50 pm

alnaseh wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:46 pm
thank you but the CM3 is not practical for me due to the size of the whole board.
The development board is not intended to be used in the final product. It is assumed that a custom board that suits your product would be made.

Since it's clear that Java9 support for the older ARM6 processors is gone, you'll either need to switch languages, use an old Java, or base your product on the Pi2, Pi3 or CM3. Expecting, or even hoping for a new SoC on the Zero is a pipe dream.
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
lots of pop-ups...and where is that annoying music coming from?

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:09 pm

alnaseh wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:46 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:32 pm
Edit add... There are some other possibilities to solve your problem. Take a look at the CM3 and CM3L. If you want to use on-board eMMC flash storage but 4GB isn't enough, consider the NEC CM3 variant with 16GB on board. You could also contact Element 14 about their custom Pi manufacturing program. It is unlikely (though not, I think, impossible) that they could make a Pi0/Pi0W variant with the BCM2837. More likely would be a custom run of the Pi3A which--I suspect--might be a set design (it was originally slated to be released last year if one takes Dr. Upton's remarks literally). In any case, custom boards aren't cheap and you'd have to order something like 3000 to 5000 of them initially. There is a long-shot chance that there would be no engineering charges for having them make a batch of Pi3A boards.
thank you but the CM3 is not practical for me due to the size of the whole board.
Which "whole board"? The CM3/CM3L are barely larger than the Pi0W (and, I should note, there is no commitment to keep the Pi0/Pi0W form factor the same in the future). If you are referring the the development carrier board, that's not intended to be used on anything beyond development. You're expected to design (or have designed) your own carrier board. It needn't be any bigger than the CM3/CM3L itself, so long as you can cram the needed circuitry and connectors into that space. Since you're looking at the Pi0W that just means power connector and circuits, a single USB port, CSI port, SD card holder, WIFI/BT, HDMI port and any GPIO pins you actually require. And note that if you use a CM3 or NEC CM3-16, then you don't need the SD card holder. In addition, unlike the Pi0W, you're not constrained to using only one side of the carrier PCB.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:24 pm

These are examples of how one could use a CM:

http://wdlabs.wd.com/products/media-stick/

http://wdlabs.wd.com/products/sata-adapter-board/


So not much bigger footprint than a RPi Zero can be accomplished, plus using the CM3 gives a more usable device...
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hippy
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:54 am

HawaiianPi wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:50 pm
Since it's clear that Java9 support for the older ARM6 processors is gone, you'll either need to switch languages, use an old Java, or base your product on the Pi2, Pi3 or CM3.
While ARMv6 precompiled binaries for Java 9 are not supplied, with OpenJDK being Open Source, I would presume it is possible to build one's own binaries for ARMv6.

alnaseh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:59 am

hippy wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:54 am
HawaiianPi wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:50 pm
Since it's clear that Java9 support for the older ARM6 processors is gone, you'll either need to switch languages, use an old Java, or base your product on the Pi2, Pi3 or CM3.
While ARMv6 precompiled binaries for Java 9 are not supplied, with OpenJDK being Open Source, I would presume it is possible to build one's own binaries for ARMv6.
i believe so, but it is not a straightforward for normal developers like me. hopefully raspbian OS team will put this into their list.

jamesh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:41 pm

It is a straightforward build. We have built it at Pi towers, but its not yet been put in to Raspbian (that isn't done by us BTW). If you need it quickly, building it yourself is the best option. On a Pi is will take an overnight build, but it is simple to do - just follow the instructions.
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alnaseh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:33 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:41 pm
It is a straightforward build. We have built it at Pi towers, but its not yet been put in to Raspbian (that isn't done by us BTW). If you need it quickly, building it yourself is the best option. On a Pi is will take an overnight build, but it is simple to do - just follow the instructions.
OK, thanks, I will wait until it is available in the repository. i think this solved my problem

alnaseh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:13 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:41 pm
It is a straightforward build. We have built it at Pi towers, but its not yet been put in to Raspbian (that isn't done by us BTW). If you need it quickly, building it yourself is the best option. On a Pi is will take an overnight build, but it is simple to do - just follow the instructions.
OK, openjdk-9 is released now in Raspberry repository, But it is not working in Pi zero

Code: Select all

Error occurred during initialization of VM
Server VM is only supported on ARMv7+ VFP

hippy
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:31 pm

alnaseh wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:13 pm
Server VM is only supported on ARMv7+ VFP
I guess that means you are going to have to build it from source if you want it for ARMv6.

alnaseh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:01 pm

hippy wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:31 pm
alnaseh wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:13 pm
Server VM is only supported on ARMv7+ VFP
I guess that means you are going to have to build it from source if you want it for ARMv6.
i want to avoid this. i was waiting for this and the result is the same.

it is not suitable to have some libraries in the raspberry repository that is not compatible with the hardware (Pi zero).

hippy
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:27 pm

alnaseh wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:01 pm
it is not suitable to have some libraries in the raspberry repository that is not compatible with the hardware (Pi zero).
It's not great but I don't know enough about the way the repository works to know if that is avoidable or not. It would be nice if it can be avoided. I ran something which gave me some sort of error and it took me a while to figure it was because it required a Pi3B. Can't remember what that was and "Needs ARMv7" at least provides details, doesn't just crash.

One might want to avoid having to compile from source, but at least that option seems to be available.

jamesh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:28 pm

alnaseh wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:01 pm
hippy wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:31 pm
alnaseh wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:13 pm
Server VM is only supported on ARMv7+ VFP
I guess that means you are going to have to build it from source if you want it for ARMv6.
i want to avoid this. i was waiting for this and the result is the same.

it is not suitable to have some libraries in the raspberry repository that is not compatible with the hardware (Pi zero).
Just spoken to some people who know - ServerVM (and I htink openJDK9) is simply not available for ARMv6 - it's not a question of building it, it just doesn't work on ARMv6. There are other packages, like Chromium, that have the same limitations.

This is basically out of RPT control, it's someone else's software, and they have decided not to support ARMv6.
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alnaseh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:17 pm

jamesh wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:28 pm

Just spoken to some people who know - ServerVM (and I htink openJDK9) is simply not available for ARMv6 - it's not a question of building it, it just doesn't work on ARMv6. There are other packages, like Chromium, that have the same limitations.

This is basically out of RPT control, it's someone else's software, and they have decided not to support ARMv6.
Ok, this returns us to the main topic which is limited support for BCM2835 processor. i believe we need a better one soon ( hopefully earlier than 2019)

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:27 pm

alnaseh wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:17 pm
jamesh wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:28 pm

Just spoken to some people who know - ServerVM (and I htink openJDK9) is simply not available for ARMv6 - it's not a question of building it, it just doesn't work on ARMv6. There are other packages, like Chromium, that have the same limitations.

This is basically out of RPT control, it's someone else's software, and they have decided not to support ARMv6.
Ok, this returns us to the main topic which is limited support for BCM2835 processor. i believe we need a better one soon ( hopefully earlier than 2019)

Why should the BCM2835 be obsoleted because Java Developers do not support ?? that is laughable.

Why not use an alternative ??
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alnaseh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:52 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:27 pm
alnaseh wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:17 pm
jamesh wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:28 pm

Just spoken to some people who know - ServerVM (and I htink openJDK9) is simply not available for ARMv6 - it's not a question of building it, it just doesn't work on ARMv6. There are other packages, like Chromium, that have the same limitations.

This is basically out of RPT control, it's someone else's software, and they have decided not to support ARMv6.
Ok, this returns us to the main topic which is limited support for BCM2835 processor. i believe we need a better one soon ( hopefully earlier than 2019)

Why should the BCM2835 be obsoleted because Java Developers do not support ?? that is laughable.

Why not use an alternative ??
Actually it should be the opposite. a developer will pick a board based on his experience and the languages he knows.
another point is that Java ecosystem is bigger than finding an easy alternative because of an old chip. in all cases we need to stick to Java 8 and tune things until a replacement is available.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:20 pm

alnaseh wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:52 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:27 pm
alnaseh wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:17 pm


Ok, this returns us to the main topic which is limited support for BCM2835 processor. i believe we need a better one soon ( hopefully earlier than 2019)

Why should the BCM2835 be obsoleted because Java Developers do not support ?? that is laughable.

Why not use an alternative ??
Actually it should be the opposite. a developer will pick a board based on his experience and the languages he knows.
another point is that Java ecosystem is bigger than finding an easy alternative because of an old chip. in all cases we need to stick to Java 8 and tune things until a replacement is available.

Still not a convincing argument why the BCM2835 should be obsoleted.

Just buy a RPi 2B / 3B or an alternative such as a Compute Module 3on a custom carrier board, as already mentioned...
Last edited by fruitoftheloom on Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hippy
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:12 pm

alnaseh wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:17 pm
jamesh wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:28 pm
This is basically out of RPT control, it's someone else's software, and they have decided not to support ARMv6.
Ok, this returns us to the main topic which is limited support for BCM2835 processor. i believe we need a better one soon ( hopefully earlier than 2019)
If OpenJDK decide to drop ARM support entirely for a future release; would you insist the Foundation has to junk everything and move to an architecture which is supported ?

I do sympathise, but at some point you have to accept that the combination you would like doesn't exist, is never likely to. There are options; use a Pi which is suitable for the Java available or use a Java version which works with what you have. Those may not be the option you would like but they may be the best options there are.

You could also pressure OpenJDK to support what you have, even dive in there to try and figure out a way to achieve that.

The world isn't perfect and sometimes one has to be grateful for what one has.

jamesh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 0 W and armv6

Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:44 pm

alnaseh wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:17 pm
jamesh wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:28 pm

Just spoken to some people who know - ServerVM (and I htink openJDK9) is simply not available for ARMv6 - it's not a question of building it, it just doesn't work on ARMv6. There are other packages, like Chromium, that have the same limitations.

This is basically out of RPT control, it's someone else's software, and they have decided not to support ARMv6.
Ok, this returns us to the main topic which is limited support for BCM2835 processor. i believe we need a better one soon ( hopefully earlier than 2019)
There are no changes to the SoC on the Zero planned that I know of. The Zero is designed to be as cheap as possible, putting a more expensive SoC goes against that intention.

So your options are the ARMv7 boards, the Pi 2 and Pi3.
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