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IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:52 am

IoT Raspberry Pi installed a UEFI environment?

Is this true? It sure appears that way. Why don't we get UEFI?

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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:49 am

gnuzilla wrote:IoT Raspberry Pi installed a UEFI environment?

Is this true? It sure appears that way. Why don't we get UEFI?
I have no idea what OS you are referring to, but guess it is;

Microsoft Windows 10 IoT Core

viewtopic.php?f=105&t=162520&p=1051347#p1051347

https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/w ... uredevices
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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:19 pm

Microsoft has indeed ported TianoCore to the Pi. I guess this doesn't concern Linux users that much ,
considering it still gets chainloaded via start.elf and only runs on the ARM CPU. I also doubt they implemented
more features than the absolute minimum to get Windows to boot.

https://github.com/ms-iot/RPi-UEFI

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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:34 pm

There is nothing wrong with chain loading to get a standard pre-boot environment, in fact that would be glorious, it would complete the platform as a real general computing platform.

I'm a Linux systems engineer, and lacking a standard pre-boot environment impacts me significantly. It means you need considerable chipset specific customized system engineering, as your now merely an embedded platform. It also fragments the ecosystem, thus preventing improvements from being widely available.

In fact, the non-standard boot environment is one of the bigger reasons why ARM boards are not used more often, this is well documented as a hurdle towards wider adoption, resulting in the creation of the SBSA. Obviously the Pi is targeting basic general computing, not a server... so much of it can be safely ignored. However UEFI is not one of those things, and is directly applicable to our present small system use cases.

The resulting platform would be, either
Uboot + the new UEFI support, or TianoCore.. doesn't actually matter as long as it's the supported way. Then Grub2 on UEFI, and we're in standard distribution territory and get boot flexibility like an x86. Pi can then better support a standard environment that is also going to be used elsewhere, and remove a huge burden towards using Pis for things many which now typically use small x86 boards.

In fact even a non-supported, but merely documented and known path would likely be good enough as a start.
Last edited by gnuzilla on Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:20 pm

gnuzilla wrote:In fact, the non-standard boot environment is one of the bigger reasons why ARM boards are not used more often
[citation needed], as they say on another site.

UEFI brings horrors of its own (like severely limiting boot options under x86 32 bit, and the bricked Samsung issue), and a little variation in the ecosystem can't be bad for keeping malware at bay.
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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:32 am

gnuzilla wrote:Their is nothing wrong with chain loading to get a standard pre-boot environment, in fact that would be glorious, it would complete the platform as a real general computing platform.
It's already a general computing platform.
gnuzilla wrote: I'm a Linux systems engineer, and lacking a standard pre-boot environment impacts me significantly. It means you need considerable chipset specific customized system engineering, as your now merely an embedded platform. It also fragments the ecosystem, thus preventing improvements from being widely available.
What is the impact though? I work with embedded Linux quite a bit, never needed UEFI. Pi's haven't had UEFI for the last 5 years, seem to sell quite well.
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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:00 pm

Yes, but think how much it could sell if it had UEFI.

Billions. Trillions, even.
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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:05 pm

Martin Frezman wrote:Yes, but think how much it could sell if it had UEFI.

Billions. Trillions, even.
:lol:

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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:10 pm

Joking aside, there is the text string "EFI PART" in the 2837 bootrom. Wassat about?

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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:02 pm

jamesh wrote: It's already a general computing platform.
It is a general-purpose computer, it is not a general-purpose computing platform. This should be obvious, the preboot environment is chipset specific, and this complexity is not abstracted from the systems engineering.
scruss wrote: [citation needed], as they say on another site.
What part do you yet need to see, you need to be specific so I can show you, but we first must establish why we're gathering the information. Their simply is no point proving this is a problem, if that's not real the reason you asking for a citation... Just like the rest of the internet.

I'm not telling you that it's a huge problem for everyone, because for a vocal section of special interests everything is fine, it's just a significant hurdle for users that is widely known and acknowledged.
scruss wrote: UEFI brings horrors of its own (like severely limiting boot options under x86 32 bit, and the bricked Samsung issue), and a little variation in the ecosystem can't be bad for keeping malware at bay.
Everything has problems, engineering is about trade-offs, the cost of not having a standard pre-boot environment is far worse. It means that using the Pi for new things inevitably has additional systems engineering costs. This should be expected for an embedded computing platform, but is not true for general computing platforms.

In addition there is no reason you must support the entire UEFI specification, just boot would be good enough for a general computing platform. In addition, it appears the hard development work has already been done,

I also never mentioned sales, however YES it would likely increase them because a huge barrier to wider adoption would be removed. How do we know it's a barrier?

https://www.linaro.org/blog/when-will-u ... dy-on-arm/

There is just so much research proving what was already obvious, that installing an OS on anything ARM is overly brutal. The benefit of standardized boot is so great that it kept ARM servers out of the data center, even with significant cost savings elsewhere.

I'm also willing to donate time to engineering a solution,
Last edited by gnuzilla on Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:58 pm

So , you would be willing to maintain Microsofts TianoCore port if they abandon it ?

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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:04 pm

It is hard to take seriously a poster who consistently misspells the word "there" (as if it were a possessive).

Note that this is not a typical spelling flame, because you consistently misspell it. It is not a typo.

Now, mind you, you could be right about what you post, but I think most people see you as a joker because of this obvious error.
If this post appears in the wrong forums category, my apologies.

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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:18 pm

ghans wrote:So , you would be willing to maintain Microsofts TianoCore port if they abandon it ?
ghans
Are you asking would I maintain someone else's implementation? No of course not, only upstream can truly maintain something, but thankfully we have a way better choice we can consider.

We would review the various implementation routes, and see the trade offs in more detail, and make our own raspberry pi standard pre-boot. Unless our review of Microsoft implementation is very comforting, either way we must maintain our own fork.

Would I maintain this? I absolutely would, yes.

Now the big payoff, offloading the raspberry pi system work to the distros, once they are aware that we have the new ARM standard boot environment. The internal systems engineering and support provided by Pi, could in theory be reduced, you cannot underestimate this engineering cost. Clearly all the companies did, and decided they'd gladly pay for a standardized environment, despite the cost savings of an embedded platform. Obviously I did also, I can't replace all computers with Pis for this reason, even though I do use them for more embedded purposes.






...
Martin Frezman wrote:It is hard to take seriously a poster who consistently misspells the word "there" ...
I corrected the spelling, now delete your comment.

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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:24 pm

Since UEFI was an ugly hack to avoid boot sector viruses and on a Raspberry where the first thing loaded is closed source bootcode.bin (which loads the kernel) where's the vector for installing a virus? With no vector to get a virus running you don't need UEFI. If you want a secure kernel you could get the bootcode to sha1sum it but that's something that only Broadcom and the RPF folks could implement.

The fact that Microsoft built something like UEFI which is loaded by their kernel, which is loaded by their copy of bootcode.bin is their design decision and mostly irrelevant for the folks running berryboot, linux, BSD or RISCOS.
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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:57 pm

gnuzilla wrote:once they are aware that we have the new ARM standard boot environment.
Why do think they so readily would adopt a Microsoft invention, of which many assume the main purpose of which is to lock out competitors. They would hate this idea, and would rather invent an alternative. Also A PI doesn't have a BIOS, or a "boot sector" as such. so UEFI to prevent boot sector viruses is pointless.

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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:58 pm

DougieLawson wrote:Since UEFI was an ugly hack to avoid boot sector viruses
This is completely unrelated to the pre-boot environment provided by UEFI, I already stated we do not need secure boot or any other extraneous extras. We're talking about good enough for a general platform, not perfecting a standards body's projected vision.

There is no reason we have to use, nor implemented, any of the secure features. None of the benefits I outlined require it, and more importantly we didn't have it when we all used BIOS, and we were able to avoid chip set specific distros, because it was a general computing platform.
DougieLawson wrote: The fact that Microsoft built something like UEFI which is loaded by their kernel, which is loaded by their copy of bootcode.bin is their design decision and mostly irrelevant for the folks running berryboot, linux, BSD or RISCOS.
Now if you disagree that UEFI should be the standardized pre-boot environment, I'm sorry but that ship sailed a while ago, and it is no reason the simple path I outlined should not be considered.
Last edited by gnuzilla on Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:07 pm

mahjongg wrote:
gnuzilla wrote:once they are aware that we have the new ARM standard boot environment.
Why do think they so readily would adopt a Microsoft invention, of which many assume the main purpose of which is to lock out competitors. They would hate this idea, and would rather invent an alternative.
Except the push back was all from special interests, that only pretended to have objections, while never actually proposing a valid alternative that handles the platform concerns.

In the case of ACPI, we have FDTs, which while they don't hit all identical concerns, this won't be a systems engineering related concern. In addition FDTs are going to be supported, as they already are supported widely in the ecosystem. ACPI will just be added as a forward possible option, but it would really be up to the chipset manufactures. The big reason this is not a big deal, is it still won't require chipset specific systems engineering, only code... which could be a concern, but the kernel guys have stated they are totally happy with FDTs, so not a huge problem for us or anyone using the hardware.

The secure boot is just not required, it's a hardware vender who would set-up and enforce such a thing in their UEFI environment, Raspberry Pis's shouldn't do so. I also agree it is a lock-in concern, but it has nothing to do with that pre-boot aspects, which is what we are lacking.

In addition, why wouldn't we get the special interest push back? Simple, because we're merely riding the wave of pressure from the industry, this is happening or ARM cannot EVER get in a data center. So this is happening, UEFI is going to be our future standardized pre-boot environment, there will be a more general computing platform on ARM. In addition your fighting a battle of two + years ago, the kernel already supports all this, and has for a while. This includes even for non-secure UEFI, of which is my proposed solution.

I also know TianoCore is not particularly loved as an implementation, however u-boot has booting UEFI support now, this looks like it may be a solid fit.

No lock-in, no irritating secure boot, and standardized grub style booting on the Pi.

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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:37 pm

Why are you trying to change something that works?

If you want GRUB like stuff use Berryboot.
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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:49 pm

+1.

There will always be people coming on this board and saying "Well, of course, you need X-and-so obvious thing that is obvious and standard and everybody of course needs it" and the response from the regulars will always be the same ("No, we don't and we're just fine without it, thankyouverymuch").

It's just the way it is.

And, of course, it is not just this board. It would be and is) the same everywhere.
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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:01 am

DougieLawson wrote:Why are you trying to change something that works?

If you want GRUB like stuff use Berryboot.

This isn't about what anyone one person can do, a general computing platform requires broad horizontal engineering to come together, this is why nobody bought in to ARM in the datacenter.

No preboot environment works for embedded systems, and for the developers and engineers who specialize in this field, nobody else is well served. Do we get by? Sure we do, doesn't mean the problem doesn't hover between severely irritating and outright horrible.

At this point, you're just willfully choosing to disregard the evidence. You need more? How many people need to say it sucks before you stand down? Do you want industry research? Do you need anecdotes from users? Custom engineering to install an OS is unreasonably limiting, and at this point their is no reason to not change it, considering the ARM industry partners already said it's happening and the development is already done.
Last edited by gnuzilla on Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:05 am

Martin Frezman wrote:+1.

There will always be people coming on this board and saying "Well, of course, you need X-and-so obvious thing that is obvious and standard and everybody of course needs it" and the response from the regulars will always be the same ("No, we don't and we're just fine without it, thankyouverymuch").
Hey martin, this isn't some whining, this is about the industry already doing work to make it happen. It will happen no matter how you feel about it, and yes it is a problem for everyone who isn't an embedded systems integrator, as has been well established. They don't enjoy wasting tons of money on someone's individual problems, that's why they did all the research to confirm the obvious.

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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:48 am

gnuzilla wrote:
Martin Frezman wrote:+1.

There will always be people coming on this board and saying "Well, of course, you need X-and-so obvious thing that is obvious and standard and everybody of course needs it" and the response from the regulars will always be the same ("No, we don't and we're just fine without it, thankyouverymuch").
Hey martin, this isn't some whining, this is about the industry already doing work to make it happen. It will happen no matter how you feel about it, and yes it is a problem for everyone who isn't an embedded systems integrator, as has been well established. They don't enjoy wasting tons of money on someone's individual problems, that's why they did all the research to confirm the obvious.
You seem to think the Raspberry PI foundation gives a damn about "the industry", the raspberry PI is for getting kids to program, UEFI is NOT needed for that.

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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:08 am

At this point, your just willfully choosing to disregard the evidence.
you're...
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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:23 pm

gnuzilla wrote:At this point, your just willfully choosing to disregard the evidence. You need more? How many people need to say it sucks before you stand down? Do you want industry research? Do you need anecdotes from users? Custom engineering to install an OS is unreasonably limiting, and at this point their is no reason to not change it, considering the ARM industry partners already said it's happening and the development is already done.
Does you RPi boot a kernel?

All of mine do, my RPi3B even manages to do that from a USB stick or across the network with PXE. So I don't care how it does that or what funky process happens between power on and the kernel launching PID#1 /sbin/init. It works. It continues to work and the RPi 3 gives me a good choice of how to get that to happen.
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Re: IoT Pi has UEFI? Yet we don't?

Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:32 pm

mahjongg wrote:]You seem to think the Raspberry PI foundation gives a damn about "the industry", the raspberry PI is for getting kids to program, UEFI is NOT needed for that.
Do you speak for the foundation in any official regard? If not, you are in no place to determine where their interests may be best served.

In addition to fulfill the goal of getting people to program, does that not include general systems engineering? Or are only specialized embedded engineers supposed to provision an OS? Do the kids not need to learn this aspect of computing? Is that what your saying?

In addition does that goal get fulfilled without Pi being a viable product, or does it also include sustaining a competitive product? I never made any appeal to the industry, I said what they were doing, and what the other chips will have.
Last edited by gnuzilla on Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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