ejolson
Posts: 3425
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:47 am

Welcoming to new members

Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:59 pm

In the last year I have seen the following played out a number of times:

1. A new forum member makes his or her first post.

2. The post says something like "if the wonderful Pi also had wonderful feature X, then I could do Y with it" or asks the similar question "will feature X ever be available, because I would like to do Y."

3. Old members make fun of the new member for wanting something which doesn't exist and start asking for unicorns and ponies.

4. The moderator locks the thread which the new member started.

5. The new member never posts again.

I believe it is possible to be more welcoming to new members. Any thoughts?
Last edited by ejolson on Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gordon77
Posts: 4118
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: Welcoming to new members

Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:04 pm

I agree with what you say it does seem to happen.

I also find some new members come on , ask a question, you then reply BUT they never seem to come back again.

Do they have problems finding the thread they started ?

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 20495
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm
Location: Delightful Dorset

Re: Welcoming to new members

Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:12 pm

ejolson wrote:In the last year I have seen the following played out a number of times:

1. A new forum member makes his or her first post.

2. The post says something like "if the wonderful Pi also had wonderful feature X, then I could do Y with it" or asks the similar question "will feature X ever be available, because I would like to do Y."

3. Old members make fun of the new member for wanting something which doesn't exist and start asking for unicorns and ponies.

4. The moderator locks the thread which the new member started.

5. The new member never posts again.

I believe it is possible to be more welcoming to new members. Any thoughts?
Welcome MR NEW MODERATOR !!

The issue is the crap layout of the Forum, prosilver theme as default would make a little more sense, especially for newbies here to find information already posted.

Though first post has to be Moderated, so why is a I demand want insist post being allowed ?
Retired disgracefully.....

User avatar
Jednorozec
Posts: 809
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 2:17 pm
Location: Deposit, NY

Re: Welcoming to new members

Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:16 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:Though first post has to be Moderated, so why is a I demand want insist post being allowed ?
There are way too many first posts that never should have been allowed.
The most important leg of a three legged stool is the one that's missing.
It's called thinking. Why don't you try it sometime?

ghans
Posts: 7871
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:30 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Welcoming to new members

Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:55 pm

Newcomers don't seem know that this forum doesn't
notify them on replies to their topics via EMail.

Nicks with only one post don't seem very strange to me.
They often talk about things which are not feature
requests too.

ghans
• Don't like the board ? Missing features ? Change to the prosilver theme ! You can find it in your settings.
• Don't like to search the forum BEFORE posting 'cos it's useless ? Try googling : yoursearchtermshere site:raspberrypi.org

MrEngman
Posts: 3844
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:17 pm
Location: Southampton, UK

Re: Welcoming to new members

Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:10 pm

ghans wrote:Newcomers don't seem know that this forum doesn't
notify them on replies to their topics via EMail.
ghans
Really? Mine do, just select Watch, and you will get notified when there is a new post.



MrEngman
Simplicity is a prerequisite for reliability. Edsger W. Dijkstra

Please post ALL technical questions on the forum. Please Do Not send private messages.

ghans
Posts: 7871
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:30 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Welcoming to new members

Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:11 pm

I believe the "Watch" feature is not enabled by default ?

ghans
• Don't like the board ? Missing features ? Change to the prosilver theme ! You can find it in your settings.
• Don't like to search the forum BEFORE posting 'cos it's useless ? Try googling : yoursearchtermshere site:raspberrypi.org

Pithagoros
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: Welcoming to new members

Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:16 pm

Yes, some regulars are condescending, rude, snarky, sanctimonious, supercilious take your pick.

But that's they way they like it, so who am I to say so.

scotty101
Posts: 3681
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:03 pm

Re: Welcoming to new members

Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:26 pm

Last edited by scotty101 on Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Electronic and Computer Engineer
Pi Interests: Home Automation, IOT, Python and Tkinter

User avatar
bensimmo
Posts: 4162
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:02 pm
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Welcoming to new members

Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:26 pm

Yes, but a new users brought up on facebook et al, does not know the complications of a forum.
I know how to use forums after setting some up, administering and moderating through the years. But still forget some of the normal settings expected nowadays, especially when they're not on b default.

The people could be 13*, 16, 20, 40, 70 etc.
Many of the older do not know the ins and out of the various tick boxes, at least the plenty I've helped through the years. Though the older are even older now ;-)
I've only just moved to prosilver but it's a bugger to use on a phone, I had forgotten about 'skins' and somebody mentioned it so I switched, it makes the forum on a desktop screen easier.

..and the young teens are just learning and really do like to just 'talk' and 'chat' about the things.
This is the community section, not the make new people unwelcome section. If speculation or repeated questions happen it might be that they do not know how to search or are just asking 'mum/dad/uncle/teacher'.

I know a lot of you know the forum, know the answers, have seen the same old same old. Just ignore it unless someone (like me) is giving miss-information on technical grounds or taking the piss out of someone purposefully.

As for searching, never going to happen, you don't search facebook/twitter/snapchat/newfangled social site, and people never did search forums 10/15 years ago either.

Moderating is thankless, been there done that, but you volunteered, you don't have to.. (unless you were 'volunteered' ;) )

After a while they'll either go away and join in
Since there is no email on their topics, finding my topics on the default skin was a chore, 'ego' search should be in big fat letters on the front.

Of course if you see everyone off, all you'll have is the polite wise forum members to chat between yourself and everything will be hunky dorey :lol:

*I don't know if this forum always under 13's

Heater
Posts: 13120
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Welcoming to new members

Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:43 pm

bensimmo,
Many of the older do not know the ins and out of the various tick boxes,
Let's not generalize. Us oldies have been have been dealing with computers for decades and the internet/forums etc since ever there were any.

Let me put a different spin on this...

Coming here and making your first post a request for some dream features of yours to be added to the Pi(next) is almost rude.

It's like getting a present from your auntie at Christmas and then glowering at her and saying "I hope you get me something better next year".

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 20495
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm
Location: Delightful Dorset

Re: Welcoming to new members

Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:48 pm

Thank you scotty101 it seems if Netiquette is enforced this Forum would be a barren place..

.
Retired disgracefully.....

User avatar
bensimmo
Posts: 4162
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:02 pm
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Welcoming to new members

Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:12 pm

Heater wrote:bensimmo,
Many of the older do not know the ins and out of the various tick boxes,
Let's not generalize. Us oldies have been have been dealing with computers for decades and the internet/forums etc since ever there were any.

Let me put a different spin on this...

Coming here and making your first post a request for some dream features of yours to be added to the Pi(next) is almost rude.

It's like getting a present from your auntie at Christmas and then glowering at her and saying "I hope you get me something better next year".
I said many and not all ;-), that is just my experience over the years on forums. Back they they were being introduced and encouraged to computers, I was much younger too :lol:

But all in all no matter what age, they are coming here for advice and to have a chat with the people here who they think will like Pi's and hopefully know their problem.
It's not rude to be excited and wonder what is next down the horizon (w.r.t asking for features of a Pi). It may seem like demanding, but then that's your interpretation. It could even be translation that causes it.

Now if they say, the Pi is fecking shite and you should add USB, why did you bother even releasing it, that's a different matter.

User avatar
Burngate
Posts: 5972
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:34 pm
Location: Berkshire UK Tralfamadore
Contact: Website

Re: Welcoming to new members

Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:37 pm

bensimmo wrote: ... The people could be 13*, 16, 20, 40, 70 etc.
...
*I don't know if this forum always under 13's
Just a FYI, there's been one recently aged 5

Edit: Look further down, at Liz's post, and you'll see why some roofing guy could take me for £10k
Last edited by Burngate on Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10772
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Welcoming to new members

Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:41 pm

bensimmo wrote:Yes, but a new users brought up on facebook et al, does not know the complications of a forum.
Usenet had the same kinds of problem every September, until AOL opened general connections to newsgroups and it got the "endless September". This is NOT a new problem.
I've only just moved to prosilver but it's a bugger to use on a phone, I had forgotten about 'skins' and somebody mentioned it so I switched, it makes the forum on a desktop screen easier.
Tried it on a desktop (27" monitor). Hated it. Switched back in under 5 minutes. Prosilver is not a panacea.

User avatar
bensimmo
Posts: 4162
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:02 pm
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Welcoming to new members

Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:32 pm

The raspi one has horrible layout problems on this phone (MotoG, Android 5, Chrome, 720x1280) also, but does at least have sensible sized text.

Still that going off topic. Well sort of, of the forum does alter ones ability to find and actually find things quickly. Like formatting text, finding search, getting back to the top forum list, finding your own posts)

Still there is a lot of knowledge on here and it's worth persevering with.

hello world :-)
Posts: 121
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:12 am
Location: England, in an insecure cloud, ie. The Interwebs
Contact: Website Yahoo Messenger AOL

Re: Welcoming to new members

Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:47 pm

Burngate wrote:
bensimmo wrote: ... The people could be 13*, 16, 20, 40, 70 etc.
...
*I don't know if this forum always under 13's
Just a FYI, there's been one recently aged 5
Whooh. That one's first post will go down in history.
I do moral support. Here: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/search.php?search_id=egosearch
I know I use too many parentheses. Problem?
Topics I have posted in: http://bit.ly/1NbDdr5
My topics: http://bit.ly/1ObnKqQ
All my posts: http://bit.ly/1OHzje7

User avatar
DougieLawson
Posts: 35823
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:19 pm
Location: Basingstoke, UK
Contact: Website Twitter

Re: Welcoming to new members

Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:52 pm

bensimmo wrote:The raspi one has horrible layout problems on this phone (MotoG, Android 5, Chrome, 720x1280) also, but does at least have sensible sized text.
The RPF folks have been promising us a forum revamp for best part of two years. They've been promising to get rid of the PiStore mess for almost as long. It's not happening, live with it.

Prosilver is marginally more sane, but I can't stand the overall blueness of it and the fact it makes the RPF forum look like the one I moderate. So I stick with Raspite.
Note: Having anything humorous in your signature is completely banned on this forum. Wear a tin-foil hat and you'll get a ban.

Any DMs sent on Twitter will be answered next month.

This is a doctor free zone.

ejolson
Posts: 3425
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Welcoming to new members

Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:33 am

Heater wrote:Coming here and making your first post a request for some dream features of yours to be added to the Pi(next) is almost rude.
At the same time, it is even more rude for old members to make fun of new members with remarks about unicorns and ponies. Maybe it would be more welcoming to reply with kindness rather than sarcasm.

FlexibleSigmoid
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:33 am

Re: Welcoming to new members

Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:48 am

Why encourage Special Snowflake Syndrome?

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10772
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Welcoming to new members

Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:55 am

ejolson wrote:
Heater wrote:Coming here and making your first post a request for some dream features of yours to be added to the Pi(next) is almost rude.
At the same time, it is even more rude for old members to make fun of new members with remarks about unicorns and ponies. Maybe it would be more welcoming to reply with kindness rather than sarcasm.
Back in the day... It was good general advice, when interested in a newsgroup one hadn't read, let alone posted in, to read the group traffic for a couple of weeks before posting *anything*. The idea being that anyone new to a given group needed to see what the social norms for the group were and what topics (besides the obvious ones from the group name and anything that could be gleaned from the FAQ) were tolerated.

It is probably still good advice when approaching a new on-line forum...though I doubt very many people would follow such advice, and the ones that would, would have much less need to do so.

Really...we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. Do we take the most repetitive threads seriously, or do we treat them lightly? Can a new poster be expected to understand that, sometimes, his leg will get pulled? Can we hope that jaded old posters will simply avoid threads that yank their particular chains, or just hope that those of a calmer and kinder disposition with reply or report as needed to restrain excesses...or even get in first with a way to allow an OP down easy before the inevitable snarks show up?

tausciam
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:48 pm

Re: Welcoming to new members

Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:06 am

I'm a new member and didn't realize that, when you post or comment, it doesn't automatically subscribe you to that thread...... They really should do something about that.

But, at least with this forum, people actually seem willing to help when you have a question. In other communities, including the Odroid community, you may or may not ever get a reply or help. As far as the feature requests, they should just make a sticky saying hardware feature requests are not allowed and leave it at that. Honestly...what do you expect for $35? It's a great value as is

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10772
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Welcoming to new members

Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:56 am

tausciam wrote:I'm a new member and didn't realize that, when you post or comment, it doesn't automatically subscribe you to that thread...... They really should do something about that.
That's very much a "YMMV" thing. The last thing I need is a pile of e-mail stating that a thread I've commented in has new posts. If I want to see if anything new is in a thread, I'll go look, otherwise not. One can argue which behavior should be the default, but notice that the feature *is* available for those that want it. If people are surprised to find out about the feature, that sheds light on the degree to which people are willing to examine the forum feature set to determine what things they want set how. (Much of this is why I really miss trn.)
But, at least with this forum, people actually seem willing to help when you have a question. In other communities, including the Odroid community, you may or may not ever get a reply or help. As far as the feature requests, they should just make a sticky saying hardware feature requests are not allowed and leave it at that. Honestly...what do you expect for $35? It's a great value as is
Glad to hear that. I have noted from time to time that the RPF community is large and active, and that this is in contrast to the communities around any number of other SBCs. It's really just a feedback loop...a large community of interested people developed, which means there is active community support, which means the community (and the knowledge within it) grows, and we go around the loop...

Feature requests... Personally, I relish a good discussion about what sorts of features would be beneficial. There will be different opinions, but if people can be calm about it, the discussion can be lots of fun and people can learn about what features others want and why some features may be practical others not so much. The difficulty is that some people are so dedicated to what they think are absolutely *required* for a viable product, and cost be damned, that they won't see reason about it and the ensuing ugliness gets the thread locked. Repeat as newer people start feature threads. While a sticky post on the subject, whether a catalog of features people have suggested or a flat statement that RPF will not consider feature requests from threads (and it has been stated that some features have been because of popular demand...from the Model B coming out before the Model A to the addition of a camera connector to the Pi Zero), the fundamental problem with sticky posts is that so few people read them, let alone heed them.

User avatar
Pilosopong Tasyo
Posts: 116
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:43 am
Location: /root

Re: Welcoming to new members

Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:38 am

Pithagoros wrote:...some regulars are condescending, rude, snarky, sanctimonious, supercilious...
Three words came to mind immediately:
Nonsense, balderdash, poppycock.
The first time I read this I thought it was humorous in a certain way. To the back of my mind I thought to myself, this must be one of those "-isms" considering the Pi originated from the UK. This was before I joined this forum.

Then again, it got repeated a few more times and it has gotten pretty old quickly. After that, whenever I see someone saying those terms (in no particular order or combination), it like them saying "You're absolutely wrong, I'm right, I'm holier than thou, and my answer is the only thing that matters."

WTG, veteran member. You just made an *** of yourself.

:roll:
Give a man a ghoti and he'll eat for a day; teach him how to ghoti and he'll eat for life. Ghoti?! - http://i.imgur.com/mAfBUdi.png
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way - http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Heater
Posts: 13120
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Welcoming to new members

Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:06 am

Often a good does of "Nonsense, balderdash, poppycock." is called for.

We all have a duty to refute factually incorrect statements.

Incorrect information lying around the net can lead to a big waste of time, expense and/or frustration for any poor soul who is mislead by it.

Of course there are many ways to refute erroneous statements. I strive for the firm but polite approach, like my old maths teacher. I'm sure I don't always manage it.

Return to “General discussion”