Maykef
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:07 pm

Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Mon May 23, 2016 5:42 pm

Hi,

I built a multispectral camera with the compute module. Recently I purchased the new camera boards to upgrade the multispectral camera and, guess what, it gives an error.
I have reinstall the image, do apt-get update/upgrade rpi-update and so on; it keeps giving me the same error.
Any ideas?

stuartclark
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Mon May 23, 2016 5:51 pm

What is the error?

Maykef
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Mon May 23, 2016 5:58 pm

Sorry!

I am not in the workshop anymore for it's something like it will keep the old ov5647 module.

If that doesn't ring a bell I'll post the exact error tomorrow.

6by9
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Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Mon May 23, 2016 6:43 pm

I have a CM running on Jessie Lite with no issues.
I assume you've followed the instructions on adding the right dt-blob.bin to configure the camera(s). The output of "vcgencmd get_camera" would confirm that. Otherwise the exact error message is required.
Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi Trading. Views expressed are still personal views.
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Maykef
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Mon May 23, 2016 6:46 pm

Hi 6by9,

Old camera modules work with no issues; the problem is with the V2 cameras. I'll paste the error message tomorrow.

Maykef
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Tue May 24, 2016 5:04 pm

This is the error:

mmal: Cannot read cameara info, keeping the defaults for OV5647
mmal: mmal_vc_component_create: failed to create component 'vc.ril.camera' (1:ENOMEM)
mmal: mmal_component_create_core: could not create component 'vc.ril.camera' (1)
mmal: Failed to create camera component
mmal: main: Failed to create camera component
mmal: Camera is not detected. Please check carefully the camera module is installed correctly

6by9
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Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Tue May 24, 2016 5:17 pm

Thank you.

Code: Select all

mmal: Cannot read cameara info, keeping the defaults for OV5647
That's very odd - implies very old firmware.

Output from

Code: Select all

uname -a
vcgencmd version
please.
Firmware version needs to be newer than end of March, and ideally the 16/5/16 Raspbian update to get the best out of the new sensor.
Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi Trading. Views expressed are still personal views.
I'm not interested in doing contracts for bespoke functionality - please don't ask.

Maykef
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Tue May 24, 2016 5:35 pm

[email protected]:~ $ uname -a
Linux raspberrypi 4.4.9+ #884 Fri May 6 17:25:37 BST 2016 armv6l GNU/Linux

[email protected]:~ $ vcgencmd version
May 12 2016 12:48:32
Copyright (c) 2012 Broadcom
version 7b2dea46a23c8bbde3eb240c846e3a17b955bbac (clean) (release)

As I said, Jessie Lite was downloaded last week from Raspberry pi website. Done all the sudo apt-get update/upgrade and rpi-update.

The issue occurs when I connect the new cameras v2 to the compute module.

Maykef
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Tue May 24, 2016 5:41 pm

Same problem with

uname -a
Linux raspberrypi 4.4.11+ #888 Mon May 23 20:02:58 BST 2016 armv6l GNU/Linux

vcgencmd version
May 20 2016 19:05:21
Copyright (c) 2012 Broadcom
version faf071dd4885c5ac1a89483d35a5326e7f69495f (clean) (release)

After rpi-update

6by9
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Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Tue May 24, 2016 5:49 pm

OK, thanks. I'll try reproducing tonight - something very weird is going on!
Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi Trading. Views expressed are still personal views.
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6by9
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Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Tue May 24, 2016 5:51 pm

Actually, one other test.
vcgencmd get_camera
I've just looked at the code that generates that error, and not detecting a camera would result in both those messages. It could be a duff module.
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Maykef
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Tue May 24, 2016 6:16 pm

[email protected]:~ $ vcgencmd get_camera
supported=-1 detected=0

The same with old camera modules. I already had that problem before and it disappeared as soon as I reinstalled the software and hooked the old camera modules; as soon as I put the v2 cameras, the problem start all again.

6by9
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Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Tue May 24, 2016 7:25 pm

Maykef wrote:[email protected]:~ $ vcgencmd get_camera
supported=-1 detected=0

The same with old camera modules. I already had that problem before and it disappeared as soon as I reinstalled the software and hooked the old camera modules; as soon as I put the v2 cameras, the problem start all again.
Sorry, that points to a hardware issue, or incorrect config.
I assume you're not trying to hot plug between the two sensors - that will fail as sensor detection results are cached.
To check for config issues, please post the contents of /boot/config.txt, and the output from "sudo raspi-gpio get" (you may need to "sudo apt-get install raspi-gpio" first).
Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi Trading. Views expressed are still personal views.
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Maykef
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Tue May 24, 2016 7:27 pm

I'll try a clean install with the new camera modules and I'll report back tomorrow.

Maykef
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Wed May 25, 2016 7:16 pm

Problem keep occurring even after clean reboot.

[email protected]:~ $ sudo raspistill -cs 1 -o test.jpg
mmal: Cannot read cameara info, keeping the defaults for OV5647
mmal: mmal_vc_component_create: failed to create component 'vc.ril.camera' (1:ENOMEM)
mmal: mmal_component_create_core: could not create component 'vc.ril.camera' (1)
mmal: Failed to create camera component
mmal: main: Failed to create camera component
mmal: Camera is not detected. Please check carefully the camera module is installed correctly

6by9
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Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Wed May 25, 2016 7:37 pm

To check for config issues, please post the contents of /boot/config.txt, and the output from "sudo raspi-gpio get" (you may need to "sudo apt-get install raspi-gpio" first).
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Maykef
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Wed May 25, 2016 7:47 pm

/boot/config.txt

# For more options and information see
# http://www.raspberrypi.org/documentatio ... fig-txt.md
# Some settings may impact device functionality. See link above for details

# uncomment if you get no picture on HDMI for a default "safe" mode
#hdmi_safe=1

# uncomment this if your display has a black border of unused pixels visible
# and your display can output without overscan
#disable_overscan=1

# uncomment the following to adjust overscan. Use positive numbers if console
# goes off screen, and negative if there is too much border
#overscan_left=16
#overscan_right=16
#overscan_top=16
#overscan_bottom=16

# uncomment to force a console size. By default it will be display's size minus
# overscan.
#framebuffer_width=1280
#framebuffer_height=720

# uncomment if hdmi display is not detected and composite is being output
#hdmi_force_hotplug=1

# uncomment to force a specific HDMI mode (this will force VGA)
#hdmi_group=1
#hdmi_mode=1

# uncomment to force a HDMI mode rather than DVI. This can make audio work in
# DMT (computer monitor) modes
#hdmi_drive=2

# uncomment to increase signal to HDMI, if you have interference, blanking, or
# no display
#config_hdmi_boost=4
# uncomment for composite PAL
#sdtv_mode=2

#uncomment to overclock the arm. 700 MHz is the default.
#arm_freq=800

# Uncomment some or all of these to enable the optional hardware interfaces
#dtparam=i2c_arm=on
#dtparam=i2s=on
#dtparam=spi=on

# Uncomment this to enable the lirc-rpi module
#dtoverlay=lirc-rpi

# Additional overlays and parameters are documented /boot/overlays/README

# Enable audio (loads snd_bcm2835)
dtparam=audio=on
start_x=1
gpu_mem=128

Maykef
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Wed May 25, 2016 7:47 pm

[email protected]:~ $ sudo raspi-gpio get
BANK0 (GPIO 0 to 27):
GPIO 00: level=1 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 01: level=1 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 02: level=1 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 03: level=1 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 04: level=1 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 05: level=1 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 06: level=1 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 07: level=1 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 08: level=1 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 09: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 10: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 11: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 12: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 13: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 14: level=1 fsel=4 alt=0 func=TXD0
GPIO 15: level=1 fsel=4 alt=0 func=RXD0
GPIO 16: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 17: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 18: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 19: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 20: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 21: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 22: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 23: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 24: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 25: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 26: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 27: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
BANK1 (GPIO 28 to 45):
GPIO 28: level=1 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 29: level=1 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 30: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 31: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 32: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 33: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 34: level=1 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 35: level=1 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 36: level=1 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 37: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 38: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 39: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 40: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 41: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 42: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 43: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 44: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 45: level=0 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
BANK2 (GPIO 46 to 53):
GPIO 46: level=1 fsel=0 alt= func=INPUT
GPIO 47: level=0 fsel=1 alt= func=OUTPUT
GPIO 48: level=1 fsel=7 alt=3 func=SD1_CLK
GPIO 49: level=1 fsel=7 alt=3 func=SD1_CMD
GPIO 50: level=1 fsel=7 alt=3 func=SD1_DAT0
GPIO 51: level=1 fsel=7 alt=3 func=SD1_DAT1
GPIO 52: level=1 fsel=7 alt=3 func=SD1_DAT2
GPIO 53: level=1 fsel=7 alt=3 func=SD1_DAT3

6by9
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
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Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Wed May 25, 2016 8:28 pm

That output from raspi-gpio implies you have an incorrect dt-blob.bin. I'd expect to see either GPIOs 2&3, or 30&31 defined as OUTPUTs, as per https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... -camera.md

Have you used the blob from https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... b-cam1.dts, or one you've created yourself? I haven't confirmed the blob on the documentation page is correct recently, but I see no reason why it should be failing now. Can you post the contents somewhere please? (The forum won't take it as it's binary data).

The output from "vcgencmd get_camera" would again confirm the number of configured cameras. If the blob is missing or the default, I'd expect 0 cameras supported.
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I'm not interested in doing contracts for bespoke functionality - please don't ask.

cyclomiha
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Fri May 27, 2016 5:06 am

HI,
I have same problem w/ RasPi3 and Pi NoIR Camera Board.

Actual error is:

Code: Select all

[email protected]:~ $ raspistill -o firstpic.jpg
mmal: Cannot read cameara info, keeping the defaults for OV5647
mmal: mmal_vc_component_create: failed to create component 'vc.ril.camera' (1:ENOMEM)
mmal: mmal_component_create_core: could not create component 'vc.ril.camera' (1)
mmal: Failed to create camera component
mmal: main: Failed to create camera component
mmal: Camera is not detected. Please check carefully the camera module is installed correctly
And some details about my setup:

Code: Select all

[email protected]:~ $ uname -a
Linux h2 4.4.11-v7+ #888 SMP Mon May 23 20:10:33 BST 2016 armv7l GNU/Linux
[email protected]:~ $ vcgencmd version
May 20 2016 19:05:21 
Copyright (c) 2012 Broadcom
version faf071dd4885c5ac1a89483d35a5326e7f69495f (clean) (release)
[email protected]:~ $
[email protected]:~ $ vcgencmd get_camera
supported=1 detected=0
[email protected]
And some more:

Code: Select all

[email protected]:~ $ sudo raspi-gpio get
BANK0 (GPIO 0 to 27):
  GPIO 00: level=1 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 01: level=1 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 02: level=1 fsel=4 alt=0 func=SDA1
  GPIO 03: level=1 fsel=4 alt=0 func=SCL1
  GPIO 04: level=1 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 05: level=1 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 06: level=1 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 07: level=1 fsel=1 alt=  func=OUTPUT
  GPIO 08: level=1 fsel=1 alt=  func=OUTPUT
  GPIO 09: level=0 fsel=4 alt=0 func=SPI0_MISO
  GPIO 10: level=0 fsel=4 alt=0 func=SPI0_MOSI
  GPIO 11: level=0 fsel=4 alt=0 func=SPI0_SCLK
  GPIO 12: level=0 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 13: level=0 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 14: level=0 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 15: level=1 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 16: level=0 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 17: level=0 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 18: level=0 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 19: level=0 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 20: level=0 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 21: level=0 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 22: level=0 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 23: level=0 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 24: level=0 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 25: level=0 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 26: level=0 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 27: level=0 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
BANK1 (GPIO 28 to 45):
  GPIO 28: level=0 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 29: level=1 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 30: level=0 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 31: level=0 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 32: level=1 fsel=7 alt=3 func=TXD0
  GPIO 33: level=1 fsel=7 alt=3 func=RXD0
  GPIO 34: level=0 fsel=7 alt=3 func=SD1_CLK
  GPIO 35: level=1 fsel=7 alt=3 func=SD1_CMD
  GPIO 36: level=1 fsel=7 alt=3 func=SD1_DAT0
  GPIO 37: level=1 fsel=7 alt=3 func=SD1_DAT1
  GPIO 38: level=1 fsel=7 alt=3 func=SD1_DAT2
  GPIO 39: level=1 fsel=7 alt=3 func=SD1_DAT3
  GPIO 40: level=0 fsel=4 alt=0 func=PWM0
  GPIO 41: level=0 fsel=4 alt=0 func=PWM1
  GPIO 42: level=1 fsel=4 alt=0 func=GPCLK1
  GPIO 43: level=1 fsel=4 alt=0 func=GPCLK2
  GPIO 44: level=1 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 45: level=1 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
BANK2 (GPIO 46 to 53):
  GPIO 46: level=1 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 47: level=1 fsel=0 alt=  func=INPUT
  GPIO 48: level=0 fsel=4 alt=0 func=SD0_CLK
  GPIO 49: level=1 fsel=4 alt=0 func=SD0_CMD
  GPIO 50: level=1 fsel=4 alt=0 func=SD0_DAT0
  GPIO 51: level=1 fsel=4 alt=0 func=SD0_DAT1
  GPIO 52: level=1 fsel=4 alt=0 func=SD0_DAT2
  GPIO 53: level=1 fsel=4 alt=0 func=SD0_DAT3
[email protected]:~
OS is downloaded from https://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/raspbian/

Tested with full desktop image and minimal debian image

Maykef
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Fri May 27, 2016 7:53 am

I have to go back to the old cameras.

Despite the fact that loading the blob file solved the problem momentarily and I could trigger the two cameras separately, trying to run a script or run the two cameras in parallel would trigger the error instead.

There is an issue with the V2 cameras and Jessie lite.

6by9
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Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha, aka just outside Cambridge.

Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Fri May 27, 2016 8:31 am

cyclomiha wrote:HI,
I have same problem w/ RasPi3 and Pi NoIR Camera Board.

Actual error is:

Code: Select all

[email protected]:~ $ raspistill -o firstpic.jpg
mmal: Cannot read cameara info, keeping the defaults for OV5647
mmal: mmal_vc_component_create: failed to create component 'vc.ril.camera' (1:ENOMEM)
mmal: mmal_component_create_core: could not create component 'vc.ril.camera' (1)
mmal: Failed to create camera component
mmal: main: Failed to create camera component
mmal: Camera is not detected. Please check carefully the camera module is installed correctly
And some details about my setup:

Code: Select all

[email protected]:~ $ uname -a
Linux h2 4.4.11-v7+ #888 SMP Mon May 23 20:10:33 BST 2016 armv7l GNU/Linux
[email protected]:~ $ vcgencmd version
May 20 2016 19:05:21 
Copyright (c) 2012 Broadcom
version faf071dd4885c5ac1a89483d35a5326e7f69495f (clean) (release)
[email protected]:~ $
[email protected]:~ $ vcgencmd get_camera
supported=1 detected=0
[email protected]
<snip>
OS is downloaded from https://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/raspbian/

Tested with full desktop image and minimal debian image
Please post in the Camera Forum.
Yours is NOT the same case as Maykef who is working on the Compute Module (hence being in this forum), and we now discover is using two cameras simultaneously. The CM requires additional steps to get the camera working.

From:

Code: Select all

[email protected]:~ $ vcgencmd get_camera
supported=1 detected=0
It would appear you have a simple connection issue - the Pi can't talk to the camera module.
Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi Trading. Views expressed are still personal views.
I'm not interested in doing contracts for bespoke functionality - please don't ask.

6by9
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 6642
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:27 am
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha, aka just outside Cambridge.

Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Fri May 27, 2016 8:43 am

Maykef wrote:I have to go back to the old cameras.

Despite the fact that loading the blob file solved the problem momentarily and I could trigger the two cameras separately, trying to run a script or run the two cameras in parallel would trigger the error instead.

There is an issue with the V2 cameras and Jessie lite.
I will disagree yet again, with minor reservation. I have run two cameras on a CM with Jessie Lite, although I seem to recall using V4L2 instead of raspicam apps.
My reservation is that I suspect I tested on a CM3, not CM. I will double check tonight. The gpu_mem split may well be different, and for obvious reasons 8MPix images take more memory than 5MPix.

Rereading your output:

Code: Select all

[email protected]:~ $ vcgencmd get_camera
supported=-1 detected=0
I misread that as supported=1, not -1 last time. You have an incorrect dt-blob.bin. Until you fix that you won't get any cameras working. The NUM_CAMERAS entry is missing under pins_cm, which tallies with the raspi-gpio entries also missing the correct pin setup.
Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi Trading. Views expressed are still personal views.
I'm not interested in doing contracts for bespoke functionality - please don't ask.

Maykef
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Fri May 27, 2016 12:05 pm

Hi 6by9,

I stated in my previous comment, I did installed the dt-blob.bin file and I did manage to trigger the cameras separately.

However, trying to run a script with parallel processes (e.g. trying to trigger the cameras at the same time, or as close as possible) triggers again the error, which does not happen when the old cameras are hooked.

No I'm back to the old cameras, but if you need me to run anything with the new modules, let me know.

6by9
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 6642
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:27 am
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha, aka just outside Cambridge.

Re: Issues with camera v2 and jessie lite?

Fri May 27, 2016 1:11 pm

Maykef wrote:I stated in my previous comment, I did installed the dt-blob.bin file and I did manage to trigger the cameras separately.

However, trying to run a script with parallel processes (e.g. trying to trigger the cameras at the same time, or as close as possible) triggers again the error, which does not happen when the old cameras are hooked.
Sorry, but it gets VERY annoying when only small snippets of the story are provided at a time, and we have to tease out the details.
- That last comment of yours was the first to mention you were trying to run 2 cameras either independently or simultaneously.
- You haven't posted any updated debug of any form.
- You said that adding the blob fixed the problem "momentarily". No, it fixed the problem permanently for a single camera at a time.
- It is more accurate to say that you have an issue when trying to run the two cameras simultaneously - not an "issue with camera v2", but cameras.

Other people (such as cyclomiha) will read this thread and make incorrect calls that it matches their symptoms, when they are miles apart. If you want support, then FULL details need to be the default state.

I will try replicating tonight as if there is an issue it needs solving.
Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi Trading. Views expressed are still personal views.
I'm not interested in doing contracts for bespoke functionality - please don't ask.

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