gsgs
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pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:20 pm

the new tablet-computers seem to be superior in hardware/money to the raspberry pis.

So, what's the general advantage of the pi ?

I know, the programs, operating systems, the community, compatibility, input/output pins, 4 USBs,...

but in general : could the same be done by starting with a tablet ?
maybe modifying it...


Could you boot noobs,riscos,...on a tablet, connect it to HDMI ?
Or could you use a tablet as monitor and touchscreen for the pi
in android, while still being able to easily switch to linux on the pi
anf exchange the data ?

Heater
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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:55 pm

gsgs,
the new tablet-computers seem to be superior in hardware/money to the raspberry pis.the new tablet-computers seem to be superior in hardware/money to the raspberry pis.
Not superior. Different. I could say that anything that does not have 4 USB ports, and ethernet jack
, a bunch of general purpose I/O pins, including UART/SPI/PWM whatever is vastly inferior. If it can't run a usable version of Linux then it is just junk.

No the same cannot be done with a tablet. No our favourite operating systems will not run on a tablet.

Yes, there are many ways to use a tablet as an interface for a Pi.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

hippy
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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:20 pm

My £20 Android phone has comparable performance, memory and storage as my Pi 1 B+, includes a 3.5" touch screen, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, GPS, GSM with unlocked SIM, camera, FM radio, USB host + OTG, is compact and cased, and includes battery management.

In some ways it is more powerful and better value than my Pi. I actually bought it because I wanted to be able to carry a list of DVD's and CD's I own around with me, wanted a mini-tablet and it was a cheaper, easier and better solution than using a Pi.

It fitted that use case perfectly, but it cannot do other things which I can do with a Pi. Particularly when it comes to physical interfacing, choosing what OS I want to use or how I want to write code for it. It certainly doesn't have extensive community support that the Pi has.

Whether a Pi is better than a phone or tablet or not really comes down to what you want to do. There is no absolute one is better than the other.

gsgs
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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 3:26 pm

heater, I think you could attach a USB-hub to increase USBs (?)
for ethernet there is probably also a solution

For the operation systems it seems just a matter of effort, the same effort
as had been done for the pi should have worked.

modifying existing platines should be easier than creating your own ones

hippy, I think OPs and community could easily be added
to an android-phone or tablet


just the platine with the chips looks superior and smaller in my new tablet.
They connect the display, cameras with a special small flat-cable.
There could be an adapter : flat-cable--> IO-pins
The lipo, speaker are soldered, an exchangeable connection could be added


the community could select special types and agree on standards
and build additions and software around it ...

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GTR2Fan
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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 3:31 pm

The Pi was created with a particular task in mind, education. It provides the right hardware and ecosystem to do this at an unbeatable price. Why reinvent the wheel?
Pi2B Mini-PC/Media Centre: ARM=1GHz (+3), Core=500MHz, v3d=500MHz, h264=333MHz, RAM=DDR2-1200 (+6/+4/+4+schmoo). Sandisk Ultra HC-I 32GB microSD card on '50=100' OCed slot (42MB/s read) running Raspbian/KODI16, Seagate 3.5" 1.5TB HDD mass storage.

gsgs
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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 3:56 pm

GTR2Fan wrote:The Pi was created with a particular task in mind, education. It provides the right hardware and ecosystem to do this at an unbeatable price. Why reinvent the wheel?
Chinese wheels are produced in larger numbers and cheaper,better.
It seems to me that those could be adapted for your education task
instead of creating entirely new platines

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GTR2Fan
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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:04 pm

If this were possible then there would already be other cheaper or similarly priced competing platforms widely available to do exactly what you're suggesting.

Sorry, but I'm finding it impossible to follow your logic. :?
Pi2B Mini-PC/Media Centre: ARM=1GHz (+3), Core=500MHz, v3d=500MHz, h264=333MHz, RAM=DDR2-1200 (+6/+4/+4+schmoo). Sandisk Ultra HC-I 32GB microSD card on '50=100' OCed slot (42MB/s read) running Raspbian/KODI16, Seagate 3.5" 1.5TB HDD mass storage.

Heater
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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:22 pm

gsgs,
I think you could attach a USB-hub to increase USBs (?) for ethernet there is probably also a solution
Perhaps one could. But then one has a sprawling mess of parts and cables and wall warts not a nice small simple all in one solution.
For the operation systems it seems just a matter of effort, the same effort as had been done for the pi should have worked.
Yep. When are you going to start putting the effort in?

I think a big issue here is that is not just one tablet/mobile hardware platform. They are all different, they are changing all the time. Who wants to put all the effort in keeping up with all that. The Pi is the Pi, for years now and years to come. Much more efficient use of manpower to support that.
modifying existing platines should be easier than creating your own ones
I presume you mean the printed circuit boards (PCBs). Might be. If one had the design files. Which we never do. And could get hold of the SoC and other parts easily.
I think OPs and community could easily be added to an android-phone or tablet
I presume "OPs" means Operating Systems. Not so easy. We look forward to seeing what you come up with.

You cannot "easily add" a community to anything. People gather around what is interesting and useful to them. You cannot buy a community to order.
...just the platine with the chips looks superior and smaller in my new tablet.
How so exactly. The Pi PCB is of very high quality. The chips look great to me.
They connect the display, cameras with a special small flat-cable.
There could be an adapter : flat-cable--> IO-pins
Such an adapter is another complication. Something to make it harder to work with. It adds expense. It add unreliability.
The lipo, speaker are soldered, an exchangeable connection could be added
How is that a good idea?
...the community could select special types and agree on standards
and build additions and software around it ..
What community? See above.
Chinese wheels are produced in larger numbers and cheaper,better.
Not so. The "wheel" that is the Pi was originally made only in China. Now they are made in the United Kingdom (Wales). For the same cost and quality.
It seems to me that those could be adapted for your education task instead of creating entirely new platines
Perhaps. Again, we look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Sorry, but I'm finding it impossible to follow your logic.

You seem to have a plan to adapt cheap Chinese mobile platforms into something that the Pi is already. This is a huge project you have set yourself. The end result will not be cheaper.

Why not just get on with creating interesting projects using what is already available, the Pi.? It's not as if it was expensive now is it.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

fruitoftheloom
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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:31 pm

The Raspberry Pi and similar SBC's are aimed at a different audience to Tablets..

This discussion is just a another in a long line of total irrelevances IMO :roll: :roll:
Retired disgracefully.....
This at present is my daily "computer" https://www.asus.com/us/Chrome-Devices/Chromebit-CS10/

stderr
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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:56 pm

Heater wrote:You seem to have a plan to adapt cheap Chinese mobile platforms into something that the Pi is already. This is a huge project you have set yourself. The end result will not be cheaper.
There are certainly aspects of the bottoming out near zero commodity "phones" and tablets out there that could pretty easily be used for things other than they were specifically intended.

I've never really got why people continue to want to build a pi into a tablet, for example. Why not just use a tablet? If it's the other aspects of the pi (or other SBCs), then just find a way to use the tablet with the pi. The tablet has a display and touch screen and GPS, camera, and other sensors, including usually now bluetooth and wifi. Adding these things to a pi is costly and it's difficult to out ease of use the tablet/phone already there.

OTOH, trying to use the tablet/phone completely in place of the pi (or other SBC) is also difficult since obviously the tablet/phone is an integrated package that you'll likely have some difficulty getting apart much less figuring out the JTAG interface. Use them both for their best uses and be happy.

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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:16 pm

Firstly you won't find many tablets at the price of the Pi, and only a few more when you've added the cost of the keyboard, screen and mouse. Of course for any decent platform you'll need those with a tablet too -- but precious few will support them.

The cheaper the tablet, the faster they change. The companies that sell them are not interested in a community or customer loyalty. They make them fast, sell them fast and move on to the next money-spinner. If we were to settle on one model of tablet then before we had a community going the manufacturer would have changed the components or ceased production altogether.

The purpose of the Pi is to program it. You can't program on Android to any meaningful extent. (There's a Forth that works, maybe a Python.) It is designed to run programs that were created on a desktop PC. So you would have to have a tablet that ran Linux (Windows is too expensive, MacOS is only licensable on Apple hardware.) I doubt there are any tablets that the manufacturer loads with Linux. By the time a community effort created a Linux install, the manufacturer would have moved the goal-posts by changing the hardware.

A Linux tablet that accepted a keyboard, mouse and HD monitor would be cool. I'd buy one. But to compete with the Pi it would have to come in at under $125 (Pi + official touch-screen is around that) and be guaranteed to be available and supported for five years. If you are expecting to sell to the media-centre users, then you need to sell for under $50.

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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:20 pm

stderr,
I've never really got why people continue to want to build a pi into a tablet, for example.
Because we can :)

Because it's interesting and fun and the may be a lot learn in doing so.

Because the end result runs Debian not some crappy mobile OS.

Because the end result is a tablet, but it's still also a Pi! A real computer that you can program how you like.

Strange you should mention it. I have been contemplating building a phone with a Pi and and a phone module (Yes I know it's been done already). It might be the size of a house brick when it's done but it would be a lot less annoying than any smart phone I have owned. More useful too.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

beta-tester
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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:35 pm

to me, a RPi + SD card + touch screen + case + powersupply + batterypack is in the same price range as a tablet (a RPi is possibly even a bit more expensive).
a tablet is more nicer and smaller more compact (, more powerful?).
the advantages of a RPi is that the RPi has a GPIO, HDMI, Ethernet, that a tablet don't have.
and the OS on a RPi can be changed way easier (possibly you can not change the OS on a tablet).
the RPi Foundation takes care to the Raspbian OS for a long term (i hope they will).

if you never use the advantages of a RPi, then better buy a tablet.
Last edited by beta-tester on Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pithagoros
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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:39 pm

I think the premise of this thread is also forgetting that a Pi often gets used as a component in a bigger project, such as embedded, automation, robotics etc. To use a tablet for that purpose, you would need to rip out the innards and throw away a touchscreen each time.

Anyway, 8 million units shipped says the Pi does its job better than a tablet.

Heater
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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:42 pm

Why do people cook their own food?

I mean, all that work shopping for ingredients, chopping things up, cooking it "just so" for ages. Not to mention the mess it makes and all the washing up afterwards. Oh, and it can be an expensive way to feed yourself.

Why not just get a ready made box and nuke it in the microwave? Or boil up a can of beans? Heck, just stop off at McDonalds on the way home.

Strange things humans. Some have taste and imagination. Others don't.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

hippy
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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:01 pm

gsgs wrote:hippy, I think OPs and community could easily be added to an android-phone or tablet
Possibly. The Pi market was there for the taking before the Pi Foundation came along and took it. Numerous Chinese manufacturers were mass producing cheap digital picture frames, NAS's, routers and later mobile phones which could easily have been opened up to include nearly all that a Pi offers, but they weren't interested. And anyone who did try and repurpose what was available soon ran into lack of documentation, information and community support.

I don't honestly think that's going to change because the Pi has cornered the low price, highly capable, market. The Foundation's relationship with Broadcom and their charitable status, low-profit business model, will better what most other manufacturers can offer.

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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:22 pm

heater, [post 3821] you have the cables anyway ... keyboard,mouse,power-supply,hdmi-cable.
The tablet is the nice simple all-in-one solution - that's what it was designed for.
But it's for the masses, not the programers or scientists or students.

And yes, there are many different ones, so let's agree on one of them
and build a community ...
OPs (operating systems), I think they have Ubuntu, I didn't yet try this.
I found some threads in other forums where they were optimistic
that other OPs could be booted (my first impression)

My tablet platine has 4x1.5GHz A33, 1GB RAM, 8GB flash, 1 micro usb, 1 micro-sd-slot,
measures 11x6x0.2 cm and the whole
tablet with 7'' display, 3000mah Akku,2 cameras,micro,speaker,
costs only 40euros

the lipo only holds some hours, with slots you could replace it easily with a reserve-lipo
the speaker is a little big

the community could be built or merged from existing ones, not well organized yet

it's not yet a project, just an idea (after opening my tablet) to be discussed

stderr, you could use them both (tablet and pi) but imo it's better to merge their features

rurwin, currently there is movement in the process, but I feel that we are getting to a point
now, where further improvements and price reductions are not possible.
So the innovation process could slow down.
Some Linux should be already available
I assume your Linux tablet with keyboard mouse and hdmi exists,
but I'm not sure, I have to search or ask on a tablet's forum

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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:39 pm

I found this:
http://www.coolsmartphone.com/2016/02/1 ... e-of-that/

no price given/estimated

------------edit--------
205 euros

http://www.amazon.es/Aquaris-M10-MediaT ... YZ42X7AY77
Last edited by gsgs on Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Heater
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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:39 pm

gsgs,
heater, [post 3821] you have the cables anyway ... keyboard,mouse,power-supply,hdmi-cable.
Well, there's the thing. None of my Pi have a keyboard, mouse, display. There is no tablet that can do what my Pi do.

Pi and Tablets are completely different animals.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

stderr
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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:44 pm

gsgs wrote:stderr, you could use them both (tablet and pi) but imo it's better to merge their features
You can't really do this unless you just mean more effectively allowing people to program for Android. But when it comes to adding non-USB hardware or getting close to the hardware in most any way, the SBC direction is the only way to go. In fact since these tablets and phones are largely not even upgradable much less allowing root access, you are really clamped down when you try to do much more than use them as intended.

But you would often want to have tablet/phone + pi/SBC anyway because the interface, say the display and touch screen, could then be separated from the bulk of the rest of the stuff you have. Who wants to hold a hard drive and a bunch of USB devices when those could be sitting near the touch screen table connected via bluetooth/wifi?

When I dis building a tablet from a pi, I'm not saying not to use a pi, I'm saying that it makes sense to leverage what already exists dirt cheap, these tablets and smartphones, in order to avoid redoing that for the pi. But taking apart a tablet or phone that works fine is a big waste and I'd oppose that, especially trashing the device to get the screen you don't know how to attach to a pi anyway.

stderr
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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:50 pm

Heater wrote:Well, there's the thing. None of my Pi have a keyboard, mouse, display.
Surely there's usually little reason for a keyboard or mouse unless the pi is being used as a system to control the others.
There is no tablet that can do what my Pi do.
While most tablets don't have a direct monitor out, I think I've seen them set up to use OTG or something like that to convert to HDMI and display their output on a monitor.

The pi isn't good for display or keyboard or mouse because it is just a board. The tablet includes a display and an input touch interface, this right there does make them different in what they can do out of the box. I think people should leverage those capabilities instead of fighting against them so much. That doesn't mean someone can't use a tablet as an SBC or an SBC built up into a tablet or phone if they have some reason that makes them happy. But those things shouldn't be the focus of what is encouraged.

Pithagoros
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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:56 pm

There is a community already for modding tablet OS, it's called Cyanogenmod.

However, that's a whole different ball game to what Pi does.
The Pi is a SBC designed to expose hardware, and when people choose not to use a Pi to do SBC things, they use a different SBC, not a tablet.

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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 7:48 pm

Eben has referred to what he calls the "tablet trap". Tablets are closed systems (even when you consider Android runs on a Linux kernel), the Pi is far more open. Tablets don't expose general purpose access to the hardware, the Pi does. As already noted, tablets don't have a large community dedicated to making them do things their designers never anticipated. The Pi does.

These are not arguments that the Pi is, somehow, "better" than a tablet, only that the Pi is designed for, easily adaptable to, and readily available for doing pretty much whatever you want it to. And some of those uses have been surprising indeed. I have uses for which a tablet is the obvious choice, but when I want something that is flexible and open enough to make work without being locked into someone elses specific choices, there is the Pi. As a result...individual tablets may come and go, but the Pi has an enduring and valued presence.

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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 8:10 pm

and I found this:
https://www.irulu.com/tablet/p-irulu-wa ... 33406.html

tablet+pc in one, with hdmi, $100
intel processor --> windows, linux are all available , I assume

is that where the trend goes ?!
maybe with a slot for a pi5 and arduino as options
and an integrated separable smartphone

Pithagoros
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Re: pi vs. tablet

Sat Mar 05, 2016 8:21 pm

gsgs wrote:and I found this:
https://www.irulu.com/tablet/p-irulu-wa ... 33406.html

tablet+pc in one, with hdmi, $100
intel processor --> windows, linux are all available , I assume

is that where the trend goes ?!
maybe with a slot for a pi5 and arduino as options
and an integrated separable smartphone
That's just a mediocre tablet like many others. I don't see that its USP is. PogoPin ?

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