Kayak83
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Fri May 13, 2016 4:59 am

And why won't pliers simply do this job?

Koepi
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Fri May 13, 2016 6:00 am

Just for you kajak, on page 5 of the thread, only 20 posts back ;)
viewtopic.php?p=965037#p965037

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waveform80
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Fri May 13, 2016 11:13 am

6by9 wrote:
Also please note that waveform80 has jumped the gun slightly with that list. The firmware update to give the full FOV 720p modes hasn't been pushed as yet. The list on the first post is correct at the present time.
Wow, google was fast on indexing that - I only wrote it yesterday! Anyway, for anyone wondering - please note that's in the *preliminary* docs for picamera 1.11 which isn't out yet. If you go to http://picamera.readthedocs.io/ you still get directed to the 1.10 docs (the current stable) release. If you really want to see the up and coming stuff, though you can visit http://picamera.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ (which is where the PDF linked to earlier was downloaded from) and you'll find the aforementioned tables and FoV images under the "Camera Hardware" chapter.

However, as this is not yet the stable release I don't promise any of it's accurate (as 6by9 notes there are upcoming firmware changes to align the modes of the V2 camera more closely with the V1 camera - I've written the tables in that chapter under the assumption it'll be accurate by the time I get around to releasing 1.11!)


Dave.

Frisbee
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Fri May 13, 2016 1:40 pm

I had a go - two goes actually - at making the credit-card tool this morning but it's a bit too small for my fingers (and possibly eyes!) to do well enough to work. Is there going to be any way to get hold of an actual 'spanner' for the v2 lens for those of us not able to make one?

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jbeale
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Fri May 13, 2016 2:05 pm

Frisbee wrote: Is there going to be any way to get hold of an actual 'spanner' for the v2 lens for those of us not able to make one?
You do want to use some kind of tool; squeezing the lens cell with pliers will distort the soft plastic making it very hard to turn, then if/when they slip off and snap closed you'll scrape across the top and destroy the lens. At least I did. Twice.

At any rate the 3D printed tool works easily and it took me only 8 minutes to print it even at 50% infill; it's only 1 mm thick. In my area (well ok, it's silicon valley) many public libraries have 3D printers, plus the hacker-spaces of course. Or you just send off to have it printed, many services exist like http://www.shapeways.com/ They usually charge by volume and this is a very small part so it shouldn't cost too much.

Frisbee
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Fri May 13, 2016 4:07 pm

jbeale wrote:
Frisbee wrote: Is there going to be any way to get hold of an actual 'spanner' for the v2 lens for those of us not able to make one?
You do want to use some kind of tool; squeezing the lens cell with pliers will distort the soft plastic making it very hard to turn, then if/when they slip off and snap closed you'll scrape across the top and destroy the lens. At least I did. Twice.

At any rate the 3D printed tool works easily and it took me only 8 minutes to print it even at 50% infill; it's only 1 mm thick. In my area (well ok, it's silicon valley) many public libraries have 3D printers, plus the hacker-spaces of course. Or you just send off to have it printed, many services exist like http://www.shapeways.com/ They usually charge by volume and this is a very small part so it shouldn't cost too much.
Thanks for the advice. I don't have any experience of 3D printing so it will be a bit of an adventure. I'm in the UK so will have a look around locally for a firm that will quote for the job. Hopefully it won't add much to the cost of the camera.

Next time I won't be in such a hurry to get my hands on the latest version of the camera!

ShiftPlusOne
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Fri May 13, 2016 4:09 pm

Frisbee wrote:
jbeale wrote:
Frisbee wrote: Is there going to be any way to get hold of an actual 'spanner' for the v2 lens for those of us not able to make one?
You do want to use some kind of tool; squeezing the lens cell with pliers will distort the soft plastic making it very hard to turn, then if/when they slip off and snap closed you'll scrape across the top and destroy the lens. At least I did. Twice.

At any rate the 3D printed tool works easily and it took me only 8 minutes to print it even at 50% infill; it's only 1 mm thick. In my area (well ok, it's silicon valley) many public libraries have 3D printers, plus the hacker-spaces of course. Or you just send off to have it printed, many services exist like http://www.shapeways.com/ They usually charge by volume and this is a very small part so it shouldn't cost too much.
Thanks for the advice. I don't have any experience of 3D printing so it will be a bit of an adventure. I'm in the UK so will have a look around locally for a firm that will quote for the job. Hopefully it won't add much to the cost of the camera.

Next time I won't be in such a hurry to get my hands on the latest version of the camera!
If there's no rush, I could print one out for you (no promises).

pootle
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Fri May 13, 2016 4:14 pm

Frisbee wrote: Thanks for the advice. I don't have any experience of 3D printing so it will be a bit of an adventure. I'm in the UK so will have a look around locally for a firm that will quote for the job. Hopefully it won't add much to the cost of the camera.

Next time I won't be in such a hurry to get my hands on the latest version of the camera!
Shapeways print in Europe if not the UK as well, so it's fairly quick and painless - at least it was 2 years ago.

Frisbee
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Fri May 13, 2016 4:56 pm

ShiftPlusOne wrote:If there's no rush, I could print one out for you (no promises).
Thank you for that kind offer - pm sent.

Frisbee
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Fri May 13, 2016 5:12 pm

Frisbee wrote:
ShiftPlusOne wrote:If there's no rush, I could print one out for you (no promises).
Thank you for that kind offer - pm sent.
Quoting myself here - sorry ShiftPlusOne, I have tried to pm you twice but for some reason the messages are sitting in my outbox and going nowhere at present. Maybe this is because I only joined the forum in April? If you could pm me with some way of contacting you with my details, it would be great.

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jbeale
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Fri May 13, 2016 5:16 pm

Probably everyone knows this but just in case: unscrewing the lens (counter-clockwise motion) will result in closer focus, and screwing in clockwise will result in more distant focus. The amount you need to rotate the lens to get best focus at infinity is probably small, less than 45 degrees. I put a little white dot on one edge of the lens to remind me where the current setting is.

@Frisbee : I think you cannot send PM to other forum users until after you have made a certain number of posts, to cut down on spam activity.

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Burngate
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Fri May 13, 2016 5:31 pm

Also, I understand, it'll sit there until the recipient reads it. Try sending me one, in the next few minutes

Frisbee
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Fri May 13, 2016 5:35 pm

Thanks jBeale and Burngate - messages have successfully gone out now.

lowflyer
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Fri May 13, 2016 7:53 pm

Sorry if this has already been covered, but exactly how good an image are we expecting? http://www.photonics.com/EDU/Handbook.aspx?AID=29926 gives a good tutorial on the apparent resolution of a camera with a perfect lens.

Roughly, the size of the image of a point source at the detector is 2.44 * F * L, where F is the F number of the lens and L is the wavelength of the light (I don't know how to print a lambda). The v2 lens has an F number of 2 and our detector has a pixel size of 1.12 microns so, measured in number of pixels, this gives:

for blue light (0.46 microns) => 2 pixels
for red light (0.69 microns) => 3 pixels
for IR (0.92 microns) => 4 pixels

[OK, so I chose the wavelengths to get 2, 3 and 4 pixels :)]

If this is right, for infrared light, the apparent resolution can never be a lot better than 4 pixels, even with a perfect lens. It would also suggest that the Circle of Confusion to be used in depth of field calculations should be more like 3 or 4 pixels - see viewtopic.php?p=968975#p968975.

Is diffraction the reason that the IR images look fuzzier than we hoped?

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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Fri May 13, 2016 8:13 pm

lowflyer wrote:Is diffraction the reason that the IR images look fuzzier than we hoped?
Yes, diffraction limits the best you can do, but I don't think you can blame it for what I'm seeing with my NoIR. Below image is a 4x magnification of a center-crop from my Pi NoIR v2.1 camera:
Image

Since this is an experimental result, I think it is not disallowed by diffraction theory :-). I'd say I'm getting 3 pixels of resolution there, meaning the period of a line-space pair. I calculated elsewhere that the Rayleigh criterion for point-spread with N.A.=0.25 lens at 550 nm (green) allows me to resolve lines as close as 1.34 microns (1.2 pixels), so I'm not at the diffraction limit (of course a digital sensor will have trouble with any less than 2 pixels for a line-space pair pattern, but that's another issue!)

I'd be quite pleased if I got such center-frame image quality equally well resolved all across the frame, but that is far from true. The difference from center to edge is due to lens distortions, not diffraction. You can see other crops from the corners of the image here: viewtopic.php?f=43&t=145815&start=175#p970337

lowflyer
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Fri May 13, 2016 8:28 pm

Arrrrg! Didn't see that thread! I always like experimental results!

Have you also got centre crops of your NoIR illuminated only by IR?

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jbeale
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Fri May 13, 2016 8:39 pm

lowflyer wrote:Have you also got centre crops of your NoIR illuminated only by IR?
Might try at some point but too many projects, not enough time. I bet lens is not achromatic, so would need to optimize focus for the IR wavelength used. Anyone else want to try? And while you're at it, why not also blue? or even UV? Here are some test patterns. I like the "Concentric Rings (pdf)".

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Gavinmc42
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Sat May 14, 2016 3:36 am

Did the two card trick on my other V2 camera this morning.
With the 8mm notch card I got enough leverage to crack the glue on the lens.
Even that first crack clockwise gave it better focus.
I could then adjust focus with only the lens twist card.
Very hard to adjust focus with handmade hole in the card.
Still trying for a good focus setting, but after 5 tests it is still not as good as the V1at half res 2x2 bin.
3D printed focus knob glued to lens?

I do love the wider field of view, useful for security cams.

Next tests will be with raw RGB to see it the blob is messing image quality about.
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Gavinmc42
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Sat May 14, 2016 5:53 am

Interesting.

Just did raspiyuv on a V1, V2, default settings. ended up with two 15.2MB files.
I would have expected a 24MB file for the V2.
Need to install a RGB viewer to check image quality.

I also used default settings for raspistill.
Will try the new OS, I am only running 4.4.9
Just wondering if the blob down sizes V2 to V1?

Do we need to specify res for V2 in the commands?
Raspistill etc don't recognize V2 and use it's V1 default settings?
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Gavinmc42
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Sat May 14, 2016 6:16 am

Losing the light but just did
sudo raspiyuv -w 3280 -h 2464 -rgb -o testv2-1.rgb
Now have a 24MB file.

I just assumed the software could tell it had a V2 and ran the default settings at max.
Will upgrade everything tonight and test tomorrow.

caerandir you are now famous:)
The v2.1 camera boards have lens focus set closer than v.1 (infinity). This can be modified.
http://elinux.org/Rpi_Camera_Module

This is called changing the datasheet to match the device errata :)
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jbeale
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Sat May 14, 2016 6:38 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:The v2.1 camera boards have lens focus set closer than v.1 (infinity). This can be modified.
http://elinux.org/Rpi_Camera_Module
This is called changing the datasheet to match the device errata :)
for very small values of famous... don't know how many people ever read that page. elinux.org is a user wiki, unofficial, and unrelated to the RPi Foundation. I wrote much of the page on the RPi camera, including that part.

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Gavinmc42
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Sat May 14, 2016 6:52 am

Wow, now I know two famous people :ugeek:
I did wonder who wrote that and how up to date it was.
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jbeale
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Sat May 14, 2016 10:07 pm

Has anyone made a 3D model of the RPi v2.1 camera PCB? I think the answer is no, but just checking...

Image

pootle
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Sat May 14, 2016 10:41 pm

Here's some test pics made with a Camera 2 noir, lens removed and stuck on a Canon 70-200 F2.8L IS II, just to see what the sensor can do.

The camera is mounted on a spare lens cap with a smaaaalll hole cut in it, but there is some light leakage, so the contrast in these pics is pretty poor, also with it being a noir the colors are totally wonky.

The pixel size on a Canon 7D has 4.3 micron, and the theoretical limit of an F2.8 lens is around 2 - 3 microns, while the pi camera 2 is just over 1.1 microns.

(manual) focussing with the pi camera on the lens is really tricky at 200mm, tiny, tiny movements are needed. The Canon 7D was auto focussed in live view, which I have found gives the most consistently accurate results.

The 3 pictures are of the top of a telephone pole about 60 yards from where the camera was placed (and at the same level):
  1. Picture with the pi camera rescaled to match (pretty close to) the resolution of the Canon 7D, there is clearly more detail available here than the 7D can resolve
  2. 1:1 pixel version of part of the image from the pi camera. Clearly we've passed the point of no return here!
  3. Picture with Canon 7D (mk1) cropped to match the (tiny) fov of the pi camera, this is 1:1 pixels
Last edited by pootle on Sun May 15, 2016 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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jbeale
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Re: New 8MP Camera - Q&A thread

Sun May 15, 2016 4:18 am

@pootle - your link gives me 404 Not Found.

also, nevermind about my 3D model question- I made one with the parts that mattered in my case.
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1564160
Image
Last edited by jbeale on Sun May 15, 2016 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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