hippy
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:28 pm

DougieLawson wrote:
hippy wrote:The Element 14 'Design your own Pi' service could be described as an, open to everyone, cloning operation ...
... with a seriously large initial investment for 3000 units needed.
This 3000 figure keeps getting quoted but I don't know what the legitimacy of that is. And I don't really see what problem that is anyway.

Many businesses have minimum order quantities, tooling costs, up-front payments. It may not be a service for one-offs and individuals, but that's nothing a commercial venture would not expect. Though I imagine if they were paid enough they would do a one off.

As with any venture it's up to those running it to decide if it is worthwhile and profitable enough to pursue. I believe I could easily sell 100K Pi Zero style boards at $10 to $20. The main issues would be if Element 14 could or would do that, how much they wanted to charge me, and how long delivery would take. The main obstacles would be having the funding to do it and any restrictions which came with what Element 14 offered.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:52 pm

hippy wrote:I believe I could easily sell 100K Pi Zero style boards at $10 to $20. The main issues would be if Element 14 could or would do that, how much they wanted to charge me, and how long delivery would take.
The element14 custom service is based on the models they have the license to manufacture (i.e. all EXCEPT the Zero - which RPF do themselves)
https://www.element14.com/community/doc ... on-service
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:54 pm

Further back some one mentioned compatibility and software.

I started with Sinclair ZX range, the Atari St both of which are well emulated on Windows PC these days as well as Android emulation of the Sinclair ZX range. If it came to it in the future some one will no doubt emulate a Raspberry PI giving access to software. Having said that how about a RPi Desktop calculator for £10 with Hdmi out ?

How I see it, the RPi F have moved to Cortex A7 with the Pi2 which should give RPi software a longer life. With the success of the RPi and the number of engineer it must of helped train through being used It will just start shrinking in to embedded products one day maybe a toaster that does toasts, makes sure the cats feed and water the plants, grin.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:02 pm

hippy wrote:
DougieLawson wrote:
hippy wrote:The Element 14 'Design your own Pi' service could be described as an, open to everyone, cloning operation ...
... with a seriously large initial investment for 3000 units needed.
This 3000 figure keeps getting quoted but I don't know what the legitimacy of that is. And I don't really see what problem that is anyway.
It's actually 5000 minimum order quantity. So if we assume $30 per board (because you'll want the BCM2836 & 1GB RAM) that's $150,000 just to get a start with a cloned RPi.

The folks who so readily cloned the Arduinos are not going to go there, but they can't get the SoC any other way.
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:11 pm

DougieLawson wrote:It's actually 5000 minimum order quantity.
As I read it that page only says 5000 min for "prior generations of pi" made to order, i.e. model B
-it doesn't mention anything for custom builds.
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hippy
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:25 pm

mikerr wrote:The element14 custom service is based on the models they have the license to manufacture (i.e. all EXCEPT the Zero - which RPF do themselves)
https://www.element14.com/community/doc ... on-service
But what's a Pi Zero style board other than any other Pi with bits taken off and things moved around or a Compute Module with some things changed and bits added ?

I am assuming it is a genuine service which is actually offered, and not just a publicity generating scam, so they can do some things. Whatever limitations or restrictions there are on their service; no one is going to know unless Element 14 publish that or someone talks to them about such a proposal.
DougieLawson wrote:
hippy wrote:This 3000 figure keeps getting quoted but I don't know what the legitimacy of that is. And I don't really see what problem that is anyway.
It's actually 5000 minimum order quantity.
Do you have a link for that ?
DougieLawson wrote: So if we assume $30 per board (because you'll want the BCM2836 & 1GB RAM) that's $150,000 just to get a start with a cloned RPi.
Assumptions are merely assumptions. But fine, if it costs $150K that's what it costs. If I figure I can sell them for $200K that's a clear $50K profit. It' would be up to me to decide if that's worth doing or not.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:48 pm

hippy wrote:
DougieLawson wrote:
hippy wrote:This 3000 figure keeps getting quoted but I don't know what the legitimacy of that is. And I don't really see what problem that is anyway.
It's actually 5000 minimum order quantity.
Do you have a link for that ?
Read the earlier posts.
https://www.element14.com/community/doc ... on-service
hippy wrote:
DougieLawson wrote: So if we assume $30 per board (because you'll want the BCM2836 & 1GB RAM) that's $150,000 just to get a start with a cloned RPi.
Assumptions are merely assumptions. But fine, if it costs $150K that's what it costs. If I figure I can sell them for $200K that's a clear $50K profit. It' would be up to me to decide if that's worth doing or not.
You're kidding. I can get a real, official, charitable RPi for $5 (Z), $20 (A+), $25 (B+) or $35 (2B) and you're offering your clone for $40. What possible market are you going to sell that in. Nobody would buy your expensive board because they have to be stupid to do that.
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hippy
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:10 pm

DougieLawson wrote:
hippy wrote:
DougieLawson wrote:It's actually 5000 minimum order quantity.
Do you have a link for that ?
Read the earlier posts.
https://www.element14.com/community/doc ... on-service
I would suggest you read it. "Prior generations of Raspberry Pi hardware (e.g. Raspberry Pi 1 Model B or Raspberry Pi 1 Model B ) are also available on a ‘manufactured to order’ basis with a MOQ of 5000 units."
DougieLawson wrote:
hippy wrote:
DougieLawson wrote: So if we assume $30 per board (because you'll want the BCM2836 & 1GB RAM) that's $150,000 just to get a start with a cloned RPi.
Assumptions are merely assumptions. But fine, if it costs $150K that's what it costs. If I figure I can sell them for $200K that's a clear $50K profit. It' would be up to me to decide if that's worth doing or not.
You're kidding. I can get a real, official, charitable RPi for $5 (Z), $20 (A+), $25 (B+) or $35 (2B) and you're offering your clone for $40. What possible market are you going to sell that in. Nobody would buy your expensive board because they have to be stupid to do that.
That was not a venture I was proposing. But if I believed I could find people to pay $40 for something they could get cheaper then why not ? I wouldn't be the first person to have made a profit out of doing that.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:14 pm

It is a genuine service. My understanding is that there isn't a minimum order unit size - but there IS a minimum cost, so if you were to order one unit, it'd still cost you tens of thousands of dollars because of the NRE (non-recurring engineering) cost. They build these in their Chinese factory, so they're not Welsh-made. All the customers so far have been industrial users who need small alterations to make things work either in a factory setting (headers in different places or pointing in different directions) or in a device they've been designed into, and they're buying in volumes that mean those numbers make commercial sense.
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:17 pm

DougieLawson wrote: You're kidding. I can get a real, official, charitable RPi for $5 (Z), $20 (A+), $25 (B+) or $35 (2B) and you're offering your clone for $40. What possible market are you going to sell that in. Nobody would buy your expensive board because they have to be stupid to do that.
My assumption re the Element 14 "build your own clone" offer is that it was aimed at commercial users embedding Pi or Pi derivatives in OEM products who wanted guaranteed supply and delivery schedule and were willing to pay a bit of a premium to that end. It doesn't make sense for potential resellers unless the Foundation were to drop manufacture of a popular product (which doesn't make sense) or if the Foundation were charging a substantial mark up over factory cost.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:27 pm

liz wrote:It is a genuine service. My understanding is that there isn't a minimum order unit size - but there IS a minimum cost, so if you were to order one unit, it'd still cost you tens of thousands of dollars because of the NRE (non-recurring engineering) cost. They build these in their Chinese factory, so they're not Welsh-made. All the customers so far have been industrial users who need small alterations to make things work either in a factory setting (headers in different places or pointing in different directions) or in a device they've been designed into, and they're buying in volumes that mean those numbers make commercial sense.
Nice to have more official information, thank you very much..... :D
Retired disgracefully.....

hippy
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:38 pm

MarkTF wrote:My assumption re the Element 14 "build your own clone" offer is that it was aimed at commercial users embedding Pi or Pi derivatives in OEM products who wanted guaranteed supply and delivery schedule and were willing to pay a bit of a premium to that end.
That was roughly my understanding, but it wouldn't seem to exclude an enterprising business wanting to manufacture a board the Foundation doesn't. For example a Pi B+/2B with connectors arranged along one side, phono or SCART connectors added, better audio on-board, better suited to HTPC, music player use, or set top box case mounting. There are plenty of projects and kickstarters out there which are basically carrier boards for the Compute Module. A modified Pi could be made the same but single-boarded.

Sure, it might cost more than a Foundation Pi, but so long as the added value justifies the selling price and exceeds what Element 14 will charge to deliver it's a winner. Not everyone will see it as adding enough extra value to justify the cost, but it's for those running such a business to decide if there is a market and if it's viable or not.

If I were going to get into that myself I would probably produce a complete HTPC style unit with case, front panel LCD and what not, and also sell boards separately.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:54 pm

I'd be inclined to go the CM route, gives you an upgrade path on your in house base board. Well, an upgrade path when a new CM comes out anyway!
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:52 pm

hippy wrote:That was roughly my understanding, but it wouldn't seem to exclude an enterprising business wanting to manufacture a board the Foundation doesn't. For example a Pi B+/2B with connectors arranged along one side, phono or SCART connectors added, better audio on-board, better suited to HTPC, music player use, or set top box case mounting. There are plenty of projects and kickstarters out there which are basically carrier boards for the Compute Module. A modified Pi could be made the same but single-boarded.
**Points at Hippy** He said SCART! :lol:

Does anyone still use SCART?
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:57 pm

alexeames wrote:
hippy wrote:That was roughly my understanding, but it wouldn't seem to exclude an enterprising business wanting to manufacture a board the Foundation doesn't. For example a Pi B+/2B with connectors arranged along one side, phono or SCART connectors added, better audio on-board, better suited to HTPC, music player use, or set top box case mounting. There are plenty of projects and kickstarters out there which are basically carrier boards for the Compute Module. A modified Pi could be made the same but single-boarded.
**Points at Hippy** He said SCART! :lol:

Does anyone still use SCART?
The French?
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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:04 pm

liz wrote:TBH, the Orange/Roseapple/Banana lot ARE annoying; it's really not cool to have someone ride on your coattails like that.
I think IBM felt the same way about how other manufacturers refered to computers that were roughly compatible with the IBM PC as PCs. As far as I can tell the term Pi on it's own is as difficult to defend as a trademark as PC was for IBM. These days the term PC is used generically to mean a desktop computer with an Intel compatible processor; similarly, it appears that Pi is being used to mean a single board computer with an ARM compatible processor.

Just like the Raspberry Pi today, sales of IBM PCs benefited from 3rd party software and hardware. Since the CPUs were available to other manufacturers, clones appeared as the market expanded. While IBM had bigger coattails to ride on, the Raspberry Pi Foundation is clearly the market leader in general-purpose single-board ARM computers sold to individuals. I guess that's the danger of success.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:45 pm

alexeames wrote:**Points at Hippy** He said SCART! :lol:

Does anyone still use SCART?
:D Me !

It's not HD quality but I have an analogue PVR and it's the best way I have found of being able to record from a VM Tivo ( terrestrial, iPlayer, YouTube etc ), Sky receiver, Freeview box, camcorder, Pi, and anything else which has composite out. Anything I record I can burn to DVD.

I don't need SCART but it tidies cabling. For RGB plus stereo it's compact, one cable instead of 10 for a bi-directional link as my PVR to TV connection used to be.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:24 am

:D And me! - for exactly the same reason.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:27 am

My 47 inch Samsung HDMI TV has a Scart socket and a traditional Aerial socket as well as USB, HDMI.
My secondhand TalkTalk Youview box has a Scart, so yes the scart socket is still in use. As others have noted a HDMI picture can be viewed over a scart connection and most people never notice any image difference when the source image is HD.

Would people buy a custom Pi with 2GB of Ram 16-32 GB of Rom, 6 USB ports, built in WiFi and Bluetooth. 1- 1.2 GHz CPU ?.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:38 am

TheGuyUk wrote:

Would people buy a custom Pi with 2GB of Ram 16-32 GB of Rom, 6 USB ports, built in WiFi and Bluetooth. 1- 1.2 GHz CPU ?.
People will buy anything.

What will be in all that ROM?

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:08 pm

Pithagoros wrote:
TheGuyUk wrote:

Would people buy a custom Pi with 2GB of Ram 16-32 GB of Rom, 6 USB ports, built in WiFi and Bluetooth. 1- 1.2 GHz CPU ?.
People will buy anything.

What will be in all that ROM?

OS and for onboard storage.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:19 pm

liz wrote:TBH, the Orange/Roseapple/Banana lot ARE annoying; it's really not cool to have someone ride on your coattails like that.
I still do not understand the logic by which the name "Orange Pi" is a terrible appropriation, but "Gertduino" is not.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:22 pm

One thing that I notice is all the clones copy the bare board approach or slightly reinvent the wheel ,with a few added extra bits. Most clones seem to be a altered tablet board.

I am surprised no one has thought of taking one of the many Android TV box designs with a quad core and adding a Raspberry PI GPIO to the design.

A TV box Amlogic S905, S812, S802, or S805 with GPIO ?

A TV Box RK3066 with GPIO?

A Mediatek MK6592 phone SOC as a SBC with GPIO?

One can dream on :)

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:49 pm

The problem with SCART, apart from the fact that the connector is the cheapest, nastiest piece of tin I hope never to see again, is that the standard only specified "if you provide such-and-such capability, it shall be on such-and-such pin". There was no way specified that what was provided should be indicated.
Sorry for OT, but I had some surplus spleen to vent.
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hippy wrote:
alexeames wrote:**Points at Hippy** He said SCART! :lol:

Does anyone still use SCART?
:D Me !

It's not HD quality but I have an analogue PVR and it's the best way I have found of being able to record from a VM Tivo ( terrestrial, iPlayer, YouTube etc ), Sky receiver, Freeview box, camcorder, Pi, and anything else which has composite out. Anything I record I can burn to DVD.

I don't need SCART but it tidies cabling. For RGB plus stereo it's compact, one cable instead of 10 for a bi-directional link as my PVR to TV connection used to be.

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Re: People mention about Pi Z clones

Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:19 pm

Pi foundation have my full support. Raspberry PI 2 is just amazing.

If people want to innovate, it's ok, but not using the good Pi name.

There is a lot of potential in ARM SoC products.

As european, i appreciate Pi being made in Europe

Pd. i need a 2Ghz / 2GB RAM Raspberry Pi 2 as soon as possible :lol: I am addicted to Pi :D

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