Peterleroux
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:51 pm
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:18 am

I would have loved a CSI interface on this, too- it would mean being able to make really a comfortably-sized compact near-IR camera. BUT the A+ is only twice the footprint, and I realise that not everyone who buys a Pi buys one to build cameras.
For the moment, I'm glad we have connectivity options, where I can spend only as much as I want for a board with either:
  • minimal connectivity and very low price (Pi zero)
    better range of connectors with reduced power consumption (A+)
    4 USB ports (B+)
    4 USB ports and improved CPU (2 B)

PiGraham
Posts: 3665
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:37 pm
Location: Waterlooville

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:19 am

Heater wrote:MissCutiePi,
Are they now expecting that the children take up soldering skills to use GPIO ?
I don't think the Foundation has ever said such a thing.

But it sounds like a damn good idea. Such skills should be common place. Perhaps start them of round about age 10 as we did back in the day.
Agreed, and there are a vast range of uses for a computer that do not use GPIO. A laptop has no GPIO and you can do on a Pi Zero all sorts of thing you could do on a laptop.

dom
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 5341
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:41 pm
Location: Cambridge

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:59 pm

ame wrote:Are the camera I/O pins accessible at all? Test points? Vias? (expecting the answer "no").
No. Routing signals out from the SoC is expensive. The more signals that need routing the more layers of PCB required. Adding extra layers to the PCB is expensive (probably more so than adding the connector).

mikerr
Posts: 2781
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:46 pm
Location: UK
Contact: Website

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:28 pm

This first batch of PiZero was made /paid for directly by the Rpi foundation

Will this continue, or are RS/Farnell producing the rest under license as with other pi?
Android app - Raspi Card Imager - download and image SD cards - No PC required !

User avatar
davidcoton
Posts: 4184
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:37 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:03 pm

stderr wrote:
davidcoton wrote:
stderr wrote: Since you can run headless, ...
Headless is useless for first time computer users. They don't have another computer to provide the human interface devices.
Wouldn't it be neat if people didn't remove part of what someone said to completely change the meaning? While I can't find it since this place isn't threaded, I am sure I was saying that you can run headless therefore you can use the VGA add on thing without using the HDMI. I certainly wasn't advocating headless machines for people without any heads. Sounds like "Sleepy Hollow" on Fox.
OK, your meaning wasn't obvious to me, apologies for ascribing something to you incorrectly. I quote selectively because re-reading whole quoted posts (particularly those containing photos, schematics, etc) really annoys me.
stderr wrote:
Who will be first to produce a package, not of "a computer for $5" (or whatever), but a complete system (PSU, cables, software, keyboard, mouse, screen) for $50 (or whatever).
Keeping in mind that Amazon was selling a 7" tablet for $34.99. By that metric, nearly no one is price barred from owning a computer. And that's true, everyone seems to have a device like that. Or ten. Yet most people aren't learning that much about the hardware or the software.
So that is our hardware sorted -- bundle a Zero with an Amazon tablet (I'm assuming it may not be quite that simple, but we've still got $10 less the Pi PSU to play with). The problem is that GUI OSs a complex enough to make it difficult for noobs to build and use a programming environment. Compared to the BBC Micro, switch on, bleep, bleep, you're in the command line build environment for BBC Basic. Maybe that won't cut it now (though, really, why not?), but perhaps the noob experience does need further refinement if the principal aim is the get people learning to code.
Signature retired

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10995
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:20 pm

jamesh wrote:
ric96 wrote:one tiny complaint from my side (one can't be a 100% optimistic, can he?).
I really miss the CSI Camera interface, i can see the reason for not being the display interface as the display itself is quiet costly and most people seem to rely on HDMI, but the number of projects using the camera interface is too damn high. This is the only thing that is stopping me from using a zero on my robot, i get no camera!
But, all that said, i do understand all the thought process that has gone into designing the zero and that their would have been a solid reason to leave that out.
I agree. I think the main problem with the zero is the lack of camera interface. Not ethernet, wifi, bluetooth, USBs. The camera interface.

Everything else you can get round (either by adding bits or simply setting up cards on a different machine then inserting them in the Pi for the run). CSI camera - no chance.

But the connector is expensive, the layout is expensive, and I suspect it would require a multi layer board, again, expensive, so there are clear reasons why it isn't there.
Even though I don't even own a camera module, I agree with both of you. Still...that means the A+ is still a viable board where a camera is needed and the Pi Camera (either version) is the preferred choice. Now we get to wait to see if a 512MB A+ shows up...

Bruny
Posts: 159
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:22 pm

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:44 pm

bob808 wrote:Bah... Pi Hut doesn't ship to Romania.
same reason as Swag?
Local postal services have shown poor level of service with high levels of delayed and lost deliveries. 8-)

clivem
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:18 am

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:39 pm

Someone with a sense of humour! (Read the item description)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Raspberry-Pi- ... 1872476155

arrow201
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:28 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:26 pm

This board breaks the fundamental philosophy of raspberrypi.org as far as
teaching/learning goes, IMHO. Don't get me wrong, it's a cool little board, but is
basically just a subset of the previous Pi's and appears to be designed for production
purposes. At this price point and well supported, i can see a lot of manufacturers
wanting to deploy the Zero in their products.

User avatar
alexeames
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2869
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:57 am
Location: UK
Contact: Website

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:34 pm

arrow201 wrote:This board breaks the fundamental philosophy of raspberrypi.org as far as
teaching/learning goes, IMHO.
How is that then? Since last Thursday 30,000 more computers are in the hands of people and many of them will learn things from them.

For example. Today I've learnt how to wire up and configure an SPI ethernet port just to see if I could do it. Tomorrow I will blog about it and show, probably a couple of thousand other people how to do it. That's pretty educational if you ask me. :lol:

Yes it could be done on other Pis, but I'd never been provoked into trying it until the Zero came out. Multiply all of that by a few thousand, add the enormous publicity of another world first and it all fits in very well with the goals of the RPF's educational mission.
Alex Eames RasPi.TV, RasP.iO

arrow201
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:28 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:55 pm

alexeames wrote:
arrow201 wrote:This board breaks the fundamental philosophy of raspberrypi.org as far as
teaching/learning goes, IMHO.
How is that then? Since last Thursday 30,000 more computers are in the hands of people and many of them will learn things from them.

For example. Today I've learnt how to wire up and configure an SPI ethernet port just to see if I could do it. Tomorrow I will blog about it and show, probably a couple of thousand other people how to do it. That's pretty educational if you ask me. :lol:

Yes it could be done on other Pis, but I'd never been provoked into trying it until the Zero came out. Multiply all of that by a few thousand, add the enormous publicity of another world first and it all fits in very well with the goals of the RPF's educational mission.
I will bet a lot of Zeros are in the hands us who already have Pi's or who have related skills
already. For example, as a prerequisite to turn on a GPIO pin, you will now have to buy/have
available soldering equipment and learn how to use it. That's quite a steep hill for someone
new.

User avatar
kusti8
Posts: 3439
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: USA

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:56 pm

It's also a great incentive to start learning! I know it is for me and it's a very useful skill!
There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary and those who don't.

User avatar
alexeames
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2869
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:57 am
Location: UK
Contact: Website

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:26 pm

arrow201 wrote:
alexeames wrote:
arrow201 wrote:This board breaks the fundamental philosophy of raspberrypi.org as far as
teaching/learning goes, IMHO.
How is that then? Since last Thursday 30,000 more computers are in the hands of people and many of them will learn things from them.

For example. Today I've learnt how to wire up and configure an SPI ethernet port just to see if I could do it. Tomorrow I will blog about it and show, probably a couple of thousand other people how to do it. That's pretty educational if you ask me. :lol:

Yes it could be done on other Pis, but I'd never been provoked into trying it until the Zero came out. Multiply all of that by a few thousand, add the enormous publicity of another world first and it all fits in very well with the goals of the RPF's educational mission.
I will bet a lot of Zeros are in the hands us who already have Pi's or who have related skills
already.
You may take that as a given. I don't see that as a bad thing at all. We will quickly see all sorts of uses that couldn't have been imagined by the creators.
arrow201 wrote:For example, as a prerequisite to turn on a GPIO pin, you will now have to buy/have
available soldering equipment and learn how to use it. That's quite a steep hill for someone
new.
Not if they buy any of the other Pis available. Don't forget there are over 7 million out there that DO have pins.
Alex Eames RasPi.TV, RasP.iO

arrow201
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:28 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:53 pm

alexeames wrote:
arrow201 wrote:For example, as a prerequisite to turn on a GPIO pin, you will now have to buy/have
available soldering equipment and learn how to use it. That's quite a steep hill for someone
new.
Not if they buy any of the other Pis available. Don't forget there are over 7 million out there that DO have pins.
Well, that was my point in the post that started this. The non-Zero Pi's are excellent teaching/learning computers.
The Zero not so much, it's geared towards an already skilled audience, IMHO. Personally, I have the background
and think the Zero is grand. I see developing on a Pi 2, and deploying the Zero in projects ...thus being more of a
"production" board. It's a poor choice for teaching/learning compared to the non-Zero Pi's.

Heater
Posts: 13608
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:59 pm

And learning how to solder is something everyone should do. Start around age 10. It's a skill humans have employed for 6000 years. It's one of life's greatest marvels. The interaction of metal alloy, heat, flux, surface tension, whetting, is a marvel to behold. Before your eyes the metal suddenly flows, the items are joined as one. Magic.

Not to be ignored just because you want to grow up to be a code monkey or prime minister.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

User avatar
mikronauts
Posts: 2726
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:28 pm
Contact: Website

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:35 pm

+1e6
Heater wrote:And learning how to solder is something everyone should do. Start around age 10. It's a skill humans have employed for 6000 years. It's one of life's greatest marvels. The interaction of metal alloy, heat, flux, surface tension, whetting, is a marvel to behold. Before your eyes the metal suddenly flows, the items are joined as one. Magic.

Not to be ignored just because you want to grow up to be a code monkey or prime minister.
http://Mikronauts.com - home of EZasPi, RoboPi, Pi Rtc Dio and Pi Jumper @Mikronauts on Twitter
Advanced Robotics, I/O expansion and prototyping boards for the Raspberry Pi

User avatar
clive
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1013
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:19 pm

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:00 pm

arrow201 wrote: For example, as a prerequisite to turn on a GPIO pin, you will now have to buy/have available soldering equipment and learn how to use it. That's quite a steep hill for someone new.
You say this as if it's a bad thing. Replace "turn on a GPIO pin" with "making a game"; and "soldering equipment" with "a home computer". And there you have it ladies and gentlemen -- the 1980s computing revolution in a nutshell :D

User avatar
ukscone
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4155
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:51 pm
Contact: Website

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:08 pm

clive wrote:
arrow201 wrote: For example, as a prerequisite to turn on a GPIO pin, you will now have to buy/have available soldering equipment and learn how to use it. That's quite a steep hill for someone new.
You say this as if it's a bad thing. Replace "turn on a GPIO pin" with "making a game"; and "soldering equipment" with "a home computer". And there you have it ladies and gentlemen -- the 1980s computing revolution in a nutshell :D
and just to stick my nose in :) actually as Rachel Rayns the Foundations tame artist proved on PiZero release day you can use conductive thread or Conductive ink to get access to the PiZero's GPIO holes so you don't need to solder, if you can sew or write you can use a PiZero's GPIO to light an LED

User avatar
Douglas6
Posts: 4778
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:34 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:38 am

ukscone wrote:if you can sew or write you can use a PiZero's GPIO to light an LED
Soldering is easier :)

arrow201
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:28 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:23 am

Wow, this is the mentality of this community ? I've done plenty of soldering,
designed 6502 and 6809 micro boards for a living in the 1980s before going
into software in the 90s to present. i was sticking up for the kids from what i
comprehended in the "About Us". Obviously, this doesn't appear to apply...

ame
Posts: 3172
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:21 am
Location: Korea

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:43 am

arrow201 wrote:Wow, this is the mentality of this community ? I've done plenty of soldering,
designed 6502 and 6809 micro boards for a living in the 1980s before going
into software in the 90s to present. i was sticking up for the kids from what i
comprehended in the "About Us". Obviously, this doesn't appear to apply...
What do you mean exactly? Is what the mentality of this community?

Do you think we should not expect or encourage kids to learn to solder?

Does "sticking up for the kids" mean "protecting" them from hard tasks like "learning to solder", or "thinking"?

stderr
Posts: 2178
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:29 pm

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:15 am

Heater wrote:And learning how to solder is something everyone should do. Start around age 10. It's a skill humans have employed for 6000 years. It's one of life's greatest marvels. The interaction of metal alloy, heat, flux, surface tension, whetting, is a marvel to behold. Before your eyes the metal suddenly flows, the items are joined as one. Magic.
In a cloud of lead smoke not that far away from eating paint chips. But hey, we all did it, didn't hurt us, oop ack!

ame
Posts: 3172
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:21 am
Location: Korea

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:20 am

stderr wrote:
Heater wrote:And learning how to solder is something everyone should do. Start around age 10. It's a skill humans have employed for 6000 years. It's one of life's greatest marvels. The interaction of metal alloy, heat, flux, surface tension, whetting, is a marvel to behold. Before your eyes the metal suddenly flows, the items are joined as one. Magic.
In a cloud of lead smoke not that far away from eating paint chips. But hey, we all did it, didn't hurt us, oop ack!
The smoke is from the flux. It is not "lead smoke".

PiGraham
Posts: 3665
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:37 pm
Location: Waterlooville

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:33 am

ukscone wrote:
clive wrote:
arrow201 wrote: For example, as a prerequisite to turn on a GPIO pin, you will now have to buy/have available soldering equipment and learn how to use it. That's quite a steep hill for someone new.
You say this as if it's a bad thing. Replace "turn on a GPIO pin" with "making a game"; and "soldering equipment" with "a home computer". And there you have it ladies and gentlemen -- the 1980s computing revolution in a nutshell :D
and just to stick my nose in :) actually as Rachel Rayns the Foundations tame artist proved on PiZero release day you can use conductive thread or Conductive ink to get access to the PiZero's GPIO holes so you don't need to solder, if you can sew or write you can use a PiZero's GPIO to light an LED
Very true. The only "skill" you need to light an LED is to be able to twist two bits of wire together and poke wires into holes on the PCB. One resistor leg twisted to one LED leg.It could be a bit wobbly but it will work.

Solderless press fit pins might work.

Image
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/10527

User avatar
rurwin
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4258
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:16 pm
Contact: Website

Re: Meet Raspberry Pi Zero: the $5 computer

Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:41 am

ame wrote:The smoke is from the flux. It is not "lead smoke".
And these days solder doesn't contain lead.

... well mine does, but anyone who keeps using the old stuff because it's better knows what risks they are taking.

The Raspberry Pi took off so fast in large part because there are many things you can do with a $25 computer that you can't do with a $100 computer. Sending it up in a balloon springs to mind. There are just as many tasks you can use a $5 computer for for which it would be extravagant to use a $25 computer.

Sending a Pi up in a balloon is educational and several schools have done it. But for individual young people the financial situation may be different. For them an industrial SBC for $100+ is pie in the sky (not pi in the sky). They may have to save up for their Pi and it might be their only one. It's no use to design an intelligent door-bell, burglar alarm or weather station if they have to give up their Pi in order to use it. The Pi Zero fits into that niche perfectly -- it's cheap enough for a kid to buy with pocket-money and yet it's got most of the useful stuff a full-sized Pi has. Sure you have to solder to it but that's educational. There's plenty of after-school clubs, Maker-Spaces or even Amateur Radio clubs that will lend a hand.

Return to “General discussion”