woodinblack
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Mon May 07, 2012 4:56 pm

nmcc said:


There's not much about the Pi that's hard to use if you follow the instructions - I've taken the Debian build comprehensively round the block and am now exercising my learning curve against Arch which I'm not familiar with.


There is quite a bit about it that is hard to use even following the instructions, although that in itself isn't much of an issue as hopefully by the time it is public ready, those things will be improved.

In fact, if you follow the instructions (and there are many conflicting ones on this forum), I would say it doesn't work. It isn't a problem for me, I do this sort of thing for a living. It is and will be a problem for others


So as long as the Pi is presented as a new experience that needs some time set aside to learn about, we'll be fine.

But as Gert says, people translate the tag line in to 'computer like you're used to but cheap' and come unstuck.


I prey you are wrong and we don't spend our time teaching a new generation of kids how to set up linux, that won't be any more benificial than them spending their time learning powerpoint, unless they go on to realise how stupid it is and produce something better!

what I am really hoping for is the youth of tomorrow to replace me. I am a senior software engineer, and do a lot of interviewing. I really want to interview young junior software engineers with enthusiasm and the passion I had in those days (and well, mostly still have). I get a lot of engineers in their 40s and a lot of young enthusiastic indian born and educated engineers, and that is good, but I don't see young english educated software engineers.

do agree about the cheap computer line - it was a bit gutting to read those reviews and hearing how all these people were going to use them just to put media centers on when you are up at 6am desparately hoping that the next click will actually work

Smartybones
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Mon May 07, 2012 4:58 pm

woodinblack said:



Note, I am saying this about the help on the forums, when I have done searching, not specifically the OPs post, which I found misguided and a bit rude, clearly he did buy the wrong thing (and I don"t know how as he must have been up early, mine only came on saturday and I was up very early!).

I guess in a way I was just hoping to not see that sort of thing. When I first enthused about the PI in another forum someone was telling me it would be impossible to make an educational linux machine as it was hard to use and the people who knew how to use it didn"t know how to teach others who weren"t like them, and I would really like that to not be right.


To be fair, I find these forums very friendly when it comes to Linux questions. The fact they say the question & answer is already on the forums before telling people to try searching makes it a lot more friendly than some forums…

The other thing is I am not too sure about is the distribution of boards. I managed to place my intrest on RS"s site in the first minute, but apparently the very early registrations were lost. I managed to get one ordered at something like 8.17 am, and got my board friday, last week. From what I can gather, my board was one of the first 6000 that came into the country.  From what I can see, others claim to have ordered before this time and still have not got a board. considering RS said they were taking orders of 700 per min someone is telling porkies somewhere….

as far as Linux not being suitable for a learning machine, I am not sure. The final package for the pi is going to be a machine that starts up and the user is going to be presented with a set of tools needed to start to learn to program. The underlying OS is really irreverent… well, to a point….

And that was the whole point of the "developer" release. The OS, installing it, and getting everything running as it should, all ready for a noob to get started with, along with noob friendly instructions. But as the Pi went viral and the developer release was hijacked. A quarter of a million to half a million boards have been ordered in the last 12 weeks, and because of the number of sales, it had to be CE marked, killing off any chance of a educational release this year, and in my opinion has been damaging to the RPi project and the chance of getting the board into any part of the national curriculum.  Damaging yes, the end of it, NO WAY….

What will be more damaging is if the forums are hijacked by a lot of disgruntled early adopters all bitching because they cant play videos from the bbc news website. more damaging again would be if the posts from these people get deleted.

Maybe whats needed is for the people that are to review the pi in the media and for the news stories to make it very clear that at the moment the RPI is still "work in progress"

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nick.mccloud
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Mon May 07, 2012 5:17 pm

woodinblack said:


we don't spend our time teaching a new generation of kids how to set up linux, that won't be any more benificial than them spending their time learning powerpoint, unless they go on to realise how stupid it is and produce something better!


As a middle-aged computer/software/electronics engineer/geek I too have no interest in the next gen learning to setup Linux. I'd like them to learn to learn, learn that different is not bad, just different, and exercise their brains so they can think for themselves. I think the Pi is a fantastic platform for them to do all of that and more.

woodinblack
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Mon May 07, 2012 5:24 pm

smartybones said:


The other thing is I am not too sure about is the distribution of boards. I managed to place my intrest on RS"s site in the first minute, but apparently the very early registrations were lost. I managed to get one ordered at something like 8.17 am, and got my board friday, last week. From what I can gather, my board was one of the first 6000 that came into the country.  From what I can see, others claim to have ordered before this time and still have not got a board. considering RS said they were taking orders of 700 per min someone is telling porkies somewhere….


I managed to get my interest registered on RS at shortly after 7, then I realised it was just an interest and not an order, and wasn't entirely sure it had gone through, so I went to farnel and managed to order from there at one or two minutes before 8 (which was cutting it fine as I had to go out at 8

My order came from farnel on saturday. I haven't really heard much from RS.


as far as Linux not being suitable for a learning machine, I am not sure. The final package for the pi is going to be a machine that starts up and the user is going to be presented with a set of tools needed to start to learn to program. The underlying OS is really irreverent… well, to a point….



Agreed, like the linux in a tomtom or on a router. I just meant to say the last thing you need is people having to fiddle with linux if they didn't want to. A bit like the mac, where you don't need to know it is unix underneath unless you want to play with it


And that was the whole point of the "developer" release. The OS, installing it, and getting everything running as it should, all ready for a noob to get started with, along with noob friendly instructions. But as the Pi went viral and the developer release was hijacked. A quarter of a million to half a million boards have been ordered in the last 12 weeks, and because of the number of sales, it had to be CE marked, killing off any chance of a educational release this year, and in my opinion has been damaging to the RPi project and the chance of getting the board into any part of the national curriculum.  Damaging yes, the end of it, NO WAY….



Yes, some kind of registration at the beginning would have been nice. It is a bit of a shame where you see posts of people saying 'Oh it is too slow, I will just throw it in a drawer and forget about it' when people are still desperate to get them.

hippy
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Mon May 07, 2012 5:46 pm

smartybones said:

Maybe whats needed is for the people that are to review the pi in the media and for the news stories to make it very clear that at the moment the RPI is still "work in progress"
Wouldn't it be better to put that on the licensee retailers' sites so there's no misunderstanding by buyers as to what they will be purchasing ?

That seems far more sensible than relying on reviewers spreading the word which potential purchasers may never actually see.

The real problem is the R-Pi is being sold to anyone and everyone, and there seems no desire to say that it's a WIP or not as simple as 'plug in and go' as it stands now. Many people will have heard of the R-Pi from news reports - 'it's the new BBC Model B' - and head off to buy one. Some will therefore only find they've 'bought the wrong thing' when they get it in their hands and start trying to use it.

No one can really blame them for consequential frustrations if they aren't being made aware of what they were getting themselves into.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Mon May 07, 2012 7:35 pm

woodinblack said:


I prey you are wrong and we don't spend our time teaching a new generation of kids how to set up linux, that won't be any more benificial than them spending their time learning powerpoint, unless they go on to realise how stupid it is and produce something better!

what I am really hoping for is the youth of tomorrow to replace me. I am a senior software engineer, and do a lot of interviewing. I really want to interview young junior software engineers with enthusiasm and the passion I had in those days (and well, mostly still have). I get a lot of engineers in their 40s and a lot of young enthusiastic indian born and educated engineers, and that is good, but I don't see young english educated software engineers.


Actually, if I interviewed someone  and they said they knew a lot about setting up Linux, I'd be quite intrigued, would make me wonder what else they know how to do. Most people don't have a clue, and if you are really good at setting up Linux, you are bound to have learnt some other stuff on the way (for example, why did you need to get so good at setting it up?). Certainly better than Powerpoint knowledge, which anyone can do!
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Mon May 07, 2012 7:40 pm

smartybones said:


What will be more damaging is if the forums are hijacked by a lot of disgruntled early adopters all bitching because they cant play videos from the bbc news website. more damaging again would be if the posts from these people get deleted.


Well, I have no problem with deleting these posts. In effect, we only need a few (two or three) threads along these lines any one time. If we get any more than that they will get dumped, simply because they duplicate existing threads. We cannot allow the forum to fill up with negative press, that would be daft.
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woodinblack
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Mon May 07, 2012 7:57 pm

JamesH said:


Actually, if I interviewed someone  and they said they knew a lot about setting up Linux, I'd be quite intrigued, would make me wonder what else they know how to do. Most people don't have a clue, and if you are really good at setting up Linux, you are bound to have learnt some other stuff on the way (for example, why did you need to get so good at setting it up?). Certainly better than Powerpoint knowledge, which anyone can do!


I wouldn't specifically, as linux would have been on the job description as the systems we sell are linux so I wouldn't be that surprised, also it would be unusual for a programmer to not know about linux and have used it at some point.

It would be useful as an addition but not really something that would really sway a decision as we have people to set that up. It would be more interesting to find how they went about it, rather than what they found out.

I would have interest in their knowledge of actual services that we use as that would be directly of use - most of them are cross platform, but have more significance than the OS which is largely irrelevant (we do linux systems but there is no reason beyond licensing that they couldn't be windows or mac systems).

On the bright side, the raspberry pi works really well with mysql!

And no, not anyone can do powerpoint. I have seen many hundreds of powerpoints, and in that time I have only seen two presentations that were any use (ie, more use than just any other method). I would say it is a fantastically rare skill, but sadly one that very few people realise they don't possess!

Smartybones
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Mon May 07, 2012 9:00 pm

JamesH said:


Actually, if I interviewed someone  and they said they knew a lot about setting up Linux, I'd be quite intrigued, would make me wonder what else they know how to do.


Actually, I have become very good at setting up Linux servers. Mostly because I keep screwing them up messing about with it. I do really need to set up a box I can play on and leave my webserver alone !! lol

And I have to say my Linux skilz have really improved over the last few weeks messing about with stuff getting ready for the arrival of my Raspberry Pi,,,

Can I have a job lol..

gimliflea
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Mon May 07, 2012 9:17 pm

Can I suggest that it should be possible to create a graphical tool to run which will set up your distro to run the way you want it and boot into that initially.

This could set up things like

Do you want to auto-login (to a user account).

Set up Admin password.

Allow selection of over/underscan parameters.

Set up ethernet dhcp or fixed IP.

etc etc

This could get very complicated but just a few of these things would answer some of the OP's points, and remove some of the grief when the educational release goes out.

bredman
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Mon May 07, 2012 10:11 pm

gimliflea said:


Can I suggest that it should be possible to create a graphical tool to run which will set up your distro to run the way you want it and boot into that initially.


This sort of thing already exists for some systems. The Ubuntu installer is probably the best of the breed. It holds your hand and asks for information in a very friendly and natural way.

Unfortunately, it takes LOTS of work to build a beautiful tool like this. If anybody wants to make a start, you can begin a project at http://elinux.org/RPi_Projects

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 12:36 am

woodinblack said:





And no, not anyone can do powerpoint. I have seen many hundreds of powerpoints, and in that time I have only seen two presentations that were any use (ie, more use than just any other method). I would say it is a fantastically rare skill, but sadly one that very few people realise they don't possess!


But you are not talking about using Powerpoint, you are talking about how to do a presentation. They are different skills. Anyone can use Powerpoint, but as you say, few people can make a worthwhile presentation (whilst using it). In much the same way as anyone can use a word processor, but not everyone can write a worthwhile book.
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adlambert

Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 8:26 am

Grumpyoldgit said:


I got my HDMI/DVI cable from Amazon for just over £2.



They are in Poundland for..... guess how much?

Spiggott
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 12:39 pm

I can see both sides of this...

I've been playing with my Pi for one day.  And I sympathise with the OP.

I was also a bit surprised at how slow it was.  I wasn't expecting it to run like a modern desktop machine (costing hundreds of pounds more) but I found it barely useable for web browsing.

That isn't a moan, I think.It's just not what I was expecting.  It's the experience I would expect from a ten-year-old PC.  I was expecting something a bit like the web on a mobile phone.  And I'm wondering if the Pi isn't simply underpowered - even for what it is.

Isn't there also a hint of disappointment in this guy's reaction (and he's no beginner)?



I've done a reasonable amount of research before getting this.  It's been repeatedly pointed out that this is a developer release.  But I wasn't aware of that - and feel vaguely guilty about it. Isn't it already being put into schools?

There are going to be lots of people like the OP.  They're not necessarily wrong.  I'm more comfortable with this stuff than most - I bought the Pi to play around with, to learn some programming and some Linux.  But I suspect most people will give up before getting very far.  It's not easy to find a way in.  How are children going to do that?

If this is going to work, then there has to (eventually) be a way in for people like the OP.  Developers have to understand people like the OP (and me).  There doesn't seem to be a lot of that in the Linux world.  Even the basics seem to assume a lot and I suspect some of it is deliberately obscure - the behaviour of a priesthood.

I thought the Pi might be a great way of understanding computers from basic principles - but I don't see it yet.

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Tass
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 12:52 pm

Spiggott said:

I was also a bit surprised at how slow it was.  I wasn't expecting it to run like a modern desktop machine (costing hundreds of pounds more) but I found it barely useable for web browsing.
Take a look here:
http://www.raspberrypi.org/for.....ith-midori

Chromium seems to perform a lot better than Midori

It's been repeatedly pointed out that this is a developer release.  But I wasn't aware of that - and feel vaguely guilty about it. Isn't it already being put into schools?
I'll ignore the fact that you somehow missed that this was a developer release   don't feel guilty though - anyone can help, not just people that actively develop the OS or tools & applications for it, there's lots to do.  My main point here is that no, this isn't being put into schools now.  The official educational release is due in Q4 this year - a little less than 6 months away.

But I suspect most people will give up before getting very far.  It's not easy to find a way in.  How are children going to do that?
There's going to be a lot more work done between now & the official educational release - I would expect the OS to boot up nicely into a GUI with no additional configuration required, and there will be a lot of easy-to-follow material provided.  ONCE kids have got a handle on how it works, they can then start digging into what's under the covers

woodinblack
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 1:02 pm

I must admit, I don't know how slow web browsing is, as it never occured to me to try doing it. It is certainly very fast for web serving, mysql, php and apache, which impressed me, and seems ok as a phone network. I have actually only fired it up in the GUI a couple of times, just to run gparted, as I couldn't be bothered to work out how it worked in the terminal (although then I had to work out how to run it in the gui!).

The answer to how will children find out how to use it is of course, they won't have to deal with this, they will have a lot better by then, that is what this release was for.

I am not sure how you can do research on it and not find out it was a developer release - it was in the FAQ, it was in the forums, and other places. In fact it was in the notes that said when and where it was going to be released so I don't know how anyone who has one now (and thus must have got in right at the start) knew where to get it from. I guess it did appear on the bbc and a few other sources.

Certainly if someone was expecting a general purpose computer, for browsing the web etc, I can see how you would be disappointed in the Pi. It isn't meant to be that, and it probably never will be.

Maybe there could be some marketplace on here were people who want to use the pi as a general purpose computer and found it lacking could get their money back selling it to someone who could make good use of it?

cashaw
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 1:14 pm

Actually, from that video I am quite surprised how quick it actually is in web browsing, the OP was mentioning 15 second delays and the like, but that video seems to show it trundling along just fine.

Again, we all have laptops, desktops, smartphones etc. The RPi was never meant or sold to replace any of these. As far as I know the foundation has never made the claim and neither has the media AFAIK. One of the earliest hands-on vids by the BBC made a point of mentioning it was slow for web-browsing and the like, but perfect for a development tool.

Again, it's a $35 board and it sure seems speedier than the $150 Chinese KIRF tablet that I bought last year

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nick.mccloud
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 1:21 pm

For it's stated purpose, the web browsing is more than fast enough . Here's the scenario:

Programming Python in Geany - need to research something - switch to Midori/Chrome (which is already open) - do Google search - spend minutes reading web pages - click a couple of links - read some more - type in to Geany - run - code some more - repeat until finished.

What it was not intended for was:

Opening 12 tabs with various high maintenance JavaScripted websites, some with Flash and some with HTML5 video so that you can poke your friends and look at the latest lol cats videos and watch trailers of new movies.

We need to find a way to be clear about this to potential purchasers.

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bigsi111
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 1:25 pm

I am still waiting for mine - it's due date is 28 May and I cannot wait!

I think that it's vital for the developers to have less experienced users onboard now, posting questions and opinions to help drive the usability of the project.  The advent of the MagPi on line magazine no doubt heralds the start of something very, very special and I cannot wait to see communities build and grow from hereonin.

Perhaps, the newer, less experienced users could have a thread where they post their requirements and what they would like to see by way of general information and training material.  Answers to these threads could then be taken into the Wiki and made available for all.

Spiggott
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 1:25 pm


I am not sure how you can do research on it and not find out it was a developer release - it was in the FAQ, it was in the forums, and other places. In fact it was in the notes that said when and where it was going to be released so I don't know how anyone who has one now (and thus must have got in right at the start) knew where to get it from. I guess it did appear on the bbc and a few other sources.


I'm not sure either. A friend told me about it - he's a computer science graduate - and it interested me. So I was hitting F5 on February 29 - and probably depriving someone more deserving.

I work in the media. Perhaps that's to blame for my ignorance. (There's been a surprising amount of media interest. And a lot of it at the level of: look at this cheap, small desktop PC for teaching kids.)

I don't know Linux so I started by trying to get it to do what I know - ie a desktop PC for web browsing. I *know* that's not what it's really about. But if it can do it, it's natural to to try. Kids would probably do the same.

Isn't that a bit of a dilemma? Any beginner will try to use is as a desktop PC - because that's what they know. They'll open the web browser and think: "This is slower than my phone. This is crap."

It either needs to be powerful enough to be useable for basic (boring) desktop stuff, as a way in, or it needs to behave like something else entirely.

cashaw
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 1:40 pm

I agree that there should be some effort in setting expectations on what you are actually getting when you buy a Pi. I started a topic called 'Setting Expectations' on the day the Pi was launched when I saw the explosion of messages on other forums from users claiming the the Pi could fly them to the moon and back.

It is not too dis-similar to the netbook saga which was to produce a small, cheap laptop primarily for reading mail and surfing the web. People picked up on it and the manufacturers kept upping the spec's until the netbook had the same high specs than any normal laptop (and of course, similar prices)

There is a risk of this with the Pi and the would-be Pi's which I am sure some manufacturers are no doubt looking into.

At the end of the day, the original aim of the Pi was not for you and me, but a very cheap computer for kids in schools to learn and understand the art of programming. The price factor especially important since Schools cannot afford a massive outlay in providing a laptop for every student.

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nick.mccloud
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 1:46 pm

Spiggott said:


Isn't that a bit of a dilemma? Any beginner will try to use is as a desktop PC - because that's what they know. They'll open the web browser and think: "This is slower than my phone. This is crap."

It either needs to be powerful enough to be useable for basic (boring) desktop stuff, as a way in, or it needs to behave like something else entirely.


Maybe it would be a good thing it leave it booting to the command line so by the time they can get a web browser up on screen in front of them we've been able to drip feed the message in amongst all the getting started blurb.

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Dave_G_2
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 1:58 pm

Perhaps it has been mentioned before, perhaps not, but surely the way to "educate" potential new users would be to have some kind of table showing comparisons between say an "average" computer with Windows and how long it takes to say complete loading a page on a website such as BBC, time taken to start a spreadsheet or letter, etc etc

The same repeated for a PC running MacOS and yet another column showing the time taken for the RASPI to do the same tasks.

Obviously the apps would be completely different but for most people, a text document is a text document is a text document, whether it's opened with Word, OpenOffice or Geany.

Same goes for browsing the web and other tasks.

As long as the specs of each computer are given along with the apps used then it would be a meaningful comparison/s and certainly more understandable to the average person then some obscure benchmark tests and quoting mega or giga flops.

woodinblack
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 2:00 pm

cashaw said:


I started a topic called 'Setting Expectations' on the day the Pi was launched when I saw the explosion of messages on other forums from users claiming the the Pi could fly them to the moon and back.


but it could: Apollo Guidance Computer !

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bigsi111
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Tue May 08, 2012 2:39 pm

Surely the RasPi should be pushed as a programming tool first and foremost?

If I was teaching anyone to programme the machine, I'd disable web access and get them to programme a simple database application storing names, addresses and phone numbers.  Then maybe bat and ball for a good fun game and so on.

We have so much source material from the late 70's and early 80's which most people using computers could not now programme and I'm going to use mide to programme Space Invaders, Databases, Text Adventure games etc., and show my children how creative computers can be.

Sorry rant over!

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