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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:45 am

Paul Webster wrote:If you look at the material towards the bottom of the page linked to in the first post, it looks like they are showing that they were making something like the RPi CM before CM was announced (their 0.1 board show 2014/04/02).
My guess is that they were as surprised as we were when the CM was announced - and were probably surprised again when B+ was announced with immediate shipping.
Obviously that is why the RPF keep their future product releases secret..........
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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:02 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Paul Webster wrote:If you look at the material towards the bottom of the page linked to in the first post, it looks like they are showing that they were making something like the RPi CM before CM was announced (their 0.1 board show 2014/04/02).
My guess is that they were as surprised as we were when the CM was announced - and were probably surprised again when B+ was announced with immediate shipping.
Obviously that is why the RPF keep their future product releases secret..........
It's certainly one reason, but there are many.


To clarify something from above, clearly Rasbian is a community exercise (although I believe 'they' do receive money from the Foundation for some aspects). The money the Foundation spends on stuff like Wayland, Scratch etc (which amounts to $100k's) is more what I was thinking about, and of course there is also the GPU firmware which has a lot of Raspberry Pi specific stuff in it now. So the Foundation spends a lot of money on ensuring stuff works well and fast on the Raspi. Watching other people then take that and use it to sell their own products without contributing does stick in the craw a bit.

Still trying to figure out how they got a 2835 based device on the market without anyone at Broadcom knowing about it...(including Eben...)
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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:24 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:
hansotten wrote:
fruitoftheloom wrote:Uses a TF Card for running the OS, could be an issue in embedded devices, the CM is better with the eMMC, IMO

It looks like a halfway house between an A and CM

Though good to see competition....
I see an eMMC slot on the bottom.
If you had read all the blurb, it is stated at this present time the eMMC is for Testing Purposes Only, considering the BCM2835 can only seek the boot files from one address location ie the TF Card, therefore it is likely to be used for an additional storage device at this present time...
I did see that. You can see the eMMC is not in the final product, but only on the bottom of the second run. So no additional storage, just a (failed?) test maybe.

Quote: 'The second run was designed on May 19, 2014, which corrected some of the electronics designs and added an eMMC module socket for test purposes. Note that the eMMC is not much faster than SD card due to the slow eMMC host speed in the SoC. We could see only ~10% improvement.'
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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:25 am

jamesh wrote:Still trying to figure out how they got a 2835 based device on the market without anyone at Broadcom knowing about it...(including Eben...)
I expect some sales rep knows about it. :)

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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:25 am

ODROID-W = RPI + RTC + ADC + UPS + Battery gauge with significant Minimalism
Not quite. Odroid-W doesn't have the LAN9514 for LAN and 4-port USB. To have the same functionality as the RPi, it must be used with the docking board which cost another $20. The total cost is $50 before shipping.
the MIPI DSI port was removed due to limited PCB space.
That's just an excuse. There's space on the bottom side for one if they want to have one. Note that the docking board support an QVGA LCD panel with an SPI interface. From this, it appears that they haven't spend any resource to develop the GPU firmware to support the DSI LCD. They likely rely on the GPU firmware developed by the RPi Foundation.
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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:36 am

PiGraham wrote: RPF doesn't exist to put money in shareholder's pockets and it is absurd to suggest that any work on the project is an any way "just to fill the shareholder's pockets of...".
I never said that; reading a full text before answering helps.
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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:49 am

The BCM2835 is a commercial product and Broadcom does not need to advertise who it sells to, anyone can buy them in quantities....

http://www.broadcom.com/products/BCM2835

Also some Roku models use the BCM2835, so the RPF does not have exclusivity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roku
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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:22 pm

gkreidl wrote:
PiGraham wrote: RPF doesn't exist to put money in shareholder's pockets and it is absurd to suggest that any work on the project is an any way "just to fill the shareholder's pockets of...".
I never said that; reading a full text before answering helps.
Keyword being "just". People work on the project for all sorts of reasons, irrespective of who may make money from it. If Co ABC subsequently makes money from that work the work was never, and does not become, "just to put money in shareholder's pockets".

You seem to have forgotten what you wrote:
Of course it is but do you really believe the people who created and maintain this special Debian release would have done the same just to fill the shareholder's pockets of some Korean company?
That is absurd. The relevant question would be : would those that did this work not have done it if they knew shareholders in some Korean company would make some money from it? I think the answer is clearly no. They did the work for reasons, the goasl of the RPF, which still hold irrespective of who makes some money from it.

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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:28 pm

Cor Blimey. I must have walked into the UN Headquarters by mistake.

:)

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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:06 pm

jamesh wrote:
gkreidl wrote:Something for the foundation's lawyers:
we decided to make our own (tiny) version of a Raspberry Pi
What I don't like about this project is that they simply use all the work (software development) of the foundation and the RPi community to sell their product. They call it "compatibility" but in fact it means: let other people do all the work and we make money from it.
Indeed. The Foundation spends money (lots of) on software and engineering to make sure its working and as good as possible,. These types of clones simply use that work without any sort of payback. It the sort of thing that puts people like the Foundation out of business.
But that's the deal with open source ...

And many other companies pay good money to develop open source that's then freely used by many others - e.g. IBM and Red Hat to name 2 big names...

And...

The kernel is open source (is Linus a billionaire?)
Most foundation developed code is open source as far as I'm aware (omxplayer, etc.)
Raspbian is open source and like many other Linux distributions maintained by volunteers.
My wiringPi is open source (and I'm not a billionaire either, and I know it's been ripped off, copied, cloned, hacked, etc.) but I know that that's the nature of open source. They're (mostly) allowed to do that.

The only thing (Pi related) I can think of that's not open source right now is the bootloader(s) which contains the GPU "blobs", and I don't know if they are foundation developed or Broadcom developed. If the latter, then it's entirely possible that along with buying the SoC they also buy the rights to use the bootloaders. It's also possible that along with signing all the NDAs, sales agreements, etc. they have sources to all the "reference" bootloaders (and tools to build them) themselves and can develop their own. Who knows.

I think there's another way to look at this - and that's proof that the foundation is doing something right. So right that others want to copy - some are copying badly (e.g. banana pi), some trying to say theirs is bigger/better/faster than the Pi (hummingboard?) but these guys - well, a tiny board that takes µSD and has a Pi GPIO connection and a bit more? Perfect little robot board although I really don't think I'd stick one on my wrist - the "BigTime" watch I have is bad enough!!! It's also the same price as a B+ and I know what I'd rather have right now. Unless it comes in at the price of an A, then I'm not sure it will sell (I'm not sure about Europe/US - would be inclined to say no, but the far-east?)

And it's not the first time this has happened either - look at Arduino - for those who use them, do you buy a genuine Arduino board, or a clone? Or build your own clone? And how many Pi-Top "arudino" boards are there now? I have at least 4 non Arduino "arduino" boards here with that are "arduino compatible". Did any of the designers of those boards pay any "royalties" back to the Arduino folks, or bother with the Arduino "Certified Program" ?

So the trick is to find the "value add". To me the value add here (Pi, Foundation) is the strength of the community and the willingness of the Foundation to help, and to actively go out there and make it happen. Keeping that going in a sustainable manner is the real challenge, and who knows - maybe Odroid will donate something to the foundation - has anyone actually asked them?

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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:14 pm


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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:25 pm

PiGraham wrote:Linus Torvalds has as estimated net worth of $150 million and an estimated annual salary of $10 million[/url].
From :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_QL

"Linus Torvalds has attributed his eventually inventing and developing the Linux kernel in part to his having owned a Sinclair QL in the 1980s."

Sigh. I should have been more adventurous with my QL.

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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:38 pm

Yeah. When I invented a wax squirting machine for modelling back in the 90s I wish I'd though of using ABS plastic.

:(

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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:35 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:The BCM2835 is a commercial product and Broadcom does not need to advertise who it sells to, anyone can buy them in quantities....

http://www.broadcom.com/products/BCM2835

Also some Roku models use the BCM2835, so the RPF does not have exclusivity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roku
Er, yes. And also other products as well. But consider both Eben and I and others who work on the firmware (and who designed the chip etc) at Broadcom knew nothing about this....but fear not, I'm sure all will be thoroughly investigated.

The main issue seems to be them using the Raspi firmware...I have no problems with them using Raspbian or any of the community based stuff (even the Foundation sponsored Scratch and Wayland since they are OSS, but that does rankle), but it would be nice for them to contribute to the huge cost of getting this software up to scratch (sorry).

This is one of the problems I see with OSS. A entity like the Foundation spends a lot of money doing something, which is snapped up and used by someone else. If the entity then makes no money on it's expenditure due to that open sourcing, it therefore needs to entirely change its business model in order to survive. I simply don't see why they should need to make such a change, and it may even be impossible. It's like building and selling a car, then having to move in to road maintenance when someone else copies your car and wrecks your business because they can make the car cheaper due to zero dev costs.
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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:30 pm

jamesh wrote: This is one of the problems I see with OSS. A entity like the Foundation spends a lot of money doing something, which is snapped up and used by someone else. If the entity then makes no money on it's expenditure due to that open sourcing, it therefore needs to entirely change its business model in order to survive. I simply don't see why they should need to make such a change, and it may even be impossible. It's like building and selling a car, then having to move in to road maintenance when someone else copies your car and wrecks your business because they can make the car cheaper due to zero dev costs.
The solution for this is to encourage people not to buy this device, purchasing the minimum order quantity of the Broadcom chip will have been quite an expensive initial outlay, if the manufacturers then fail to sell any of the product it will have been an outlay without a return.

To borrow your analogy, the competitor would have a 100,000 cars rusting away in storage because no one trusted the cloned car while the manufacturer has still had to pay for the engines and bodywork.
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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:39 pm

BMS Doug wrote:
jamesh wrote: This is one of the problems I see with OSS. A entity like the Foundation spends a lot of money doing something, which is snapped up and used by someone else. If the entity then makes no money on it's expenditure due to that open sourcing, it therefore needs to entirely change its business model in order to survive. I simply don't see why they should need to make such a change, and it may even be impossible. It's like building and selling a car, then having to move in to road maintenance when someone else copies your car and wrecks your business because they can make the car cheaper due to zero dev costs.
The solution for this is to encourage people not to buy this device, purchasing the minimum order quantity of the Broadcom chip will have been quite an expensive initial outlay, if the manufacturers then fail to sell any of the product it will have been an outlay without a return.

To borrow your analogy, the competitor would have a 100,000 cars rusting away in storage because no one trusted the cloned car while the manufacturer has still had to pay for the engines and bodywork.
Indeed. But that didn't stop people buying early Skoda's!
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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:46 pm

jamesh wrote: This is one of the problems I see with OSS. A entity like the Foundation spends a lot of money doing something, which is snapped up and used by someone else. If the entity then makes no money on it's expenditure due to that open sourcing, it therefore needs to entirely change its business model in order to survive. I simply don't see why they should need to make such a change, and it may even be impossible. It's like building and selling a car, then having to move in to road maintenance when someone else copies your car and wrecks your business because they can make the car cheaper due to zero dev costs.
Not a new phenomenon. As a real example, when most of the world's telcos were opened up to competition, the newcomers were able to go along to the equipment suppliers and buy the same equipment for which the incumbents had paid the R&D costs.

You don't be born into this world with a written guarantee that life will be fair.
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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:51 pm

It's not a one way street, the raspberry pi has benefited a lot from open source. Imagine how fun it would be to get the pi to the current state without gcc and gnu/linux or the community projects like raspbian.

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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:17 pm

gkreidl wrote:
PiGraham wrote: Raspbian is open source.
Of course it is but do you really believe the people who created and maintain this special Debian release would have done the same just to fill the shareholder's pockets of some Korean company? There would be no Raspbian without the foundation and the RPi.
Mostly because there wouldn't have been any need for it, the whole reason raspbian exists is because the raspberry pi foundation went with an armv6 part when everyone else had already decided to go armv7.
To clarify something from above, clearly Rasbian is a community exercise (although I believe 'they' do receive money from the Foundation for some aspects).
I briefly did some consulting work for raspberry pi trading limited investigating compiler optimisations and setting up nightly builds but that's it. I'm not aware of mike receiving anything from the raspberry pi foundation.

P.S. I have an odriod U2 which is used heavilly in building stuff for raspbian.

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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:34 pm

I am going to sit on the fence about rights and wrongs, just a musing:

Ifthe Pi was ARMv7 then this scenario would not exist, so on the reverse side if more developers develop for the ARMv6 then it is feasible a broader depth of software would be created etcetera........
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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:49 pm

BMS Doug wrote:
jamesh wrote:The solution for this is to encourage people not to buy this device, purchasing the minimum order quantity of the Broadcom chip will have been quite an expensive initial outlay, if the manufacturers then fail to sell any of the product it will have been an outlay without a return.
That seems vindictive. A more positive alternative would be to encourage anyone buying this device to donate a little to RPF.

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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:45 pm

linux is open source

raspbian is debian, which is open source

gcc for arm6, 7, etc is open source

Without the above open source packages the Raspberry Pi Foundation, and the Raspberry Pi would arguably not exit

The whole purpose of the GPL (under which the above open source software is licensed) is that it NOT be locked up

If Broadcom provided them with the binary blobs, I don't see where the problem is.

If they are using open source replacements for the binary blobs, I don't see a problem either.

If they are using closed source blobs without a license... there is a problem - however I fail to see how Broadcom would/could sell their chips without the closed bits - no one would buy them.

With the volumes the Foundation purchases in, I fail to see how some competition would harm them.
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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:14 pm

To be honest I don't think the ODROID-W is going to be a great seller they have other better and faster hardware on offer so it seems weird to offer something less powerful without an Ethernet port.
There is also the question GPU camera support, video code decoding support I somehow doubt the RPF would allow codec license purchases for non-Pi hardware.

It would be interesting to know how they managed to source the BCM2835 chips without the knowledge of the Broadcom engineers.
My guess is they've probably bought old stock from another company like Roku i.e. old stock pile of BCM2835 chips from defunct products.

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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:24 pm

Then again it's probably not difficult to purchase BCM2835 chips via 3rd party - http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/O ... 44385.html

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Re: ODROID-W, a RPI compatible module?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:25 pm

redhawk wrote:Then again it's probably not difficult to purchase BCM2835 chips via 3rd party - http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/O ... 44385.html

Richard S.
95% certain that's a scam (alibaba is full of scammers)

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