spurious
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:03 pm

Kids are no more nor any less intelligent than they were, the problem is they get taught to pass exams these days and not taught a subject.

Kids just need better, more rounded education.

They may know how to use a smart phone from being a young age, because they have access to the devices, but they have no more idea of how to program one as any other person who has not been taught at least the basics.

Lynbarn
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:18 pm

Skygod said:

If it's a case that all Admins are getting privileged information, then where does the forum stand?


I'm an admin on the blog and forum and I certainly don't have any privileged information, so it's certainly not the case that all admins are getting any.

Some admins, of course, ARE members of the foundation, and will know more - often more than they are allowed to say, for reasons that have been discussed before (NDAs, commercial negotioations, etc.)

In various discussion I've seen there seem to be some posters saying the moderation is too lax, while others say too tight, so my guess is that, on balance, we (the admins) are probably getting it just about right for most of the time, but we are only human, even admins have off-days, and we do have a lot of rubbish to deal with - personal emails, PMs etc, as well as spam and trash - that most of the visitors to the forum never see. In my experience (and believe me, I have many years of it) this forum is no worse than many, and a great deal better than some

It seems to me that The RPF has consistently been as open and up front about issues as it can be. Okay so mistakes happen, things go wrong, and there are periods where no news is forthcoming.  Often BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING TO SAY.

jamodio
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:45 pm

John Beetem said:


I've not seen any evidence that modern kids are "wired" in a different way.  They have different toys to play with and are walking around listening to iPods instead of transistor radios and boom boxes, and perhaps they're dafter from watching too much TV, but it's not like they've evolved into a new species.  If they had, there would be no point in Aged P's like us bothering to try to educate them.

I suggest you stop watching Village of the Damned and instead read Isacc Asimov's "Profession".  Best work I know of on education.


There are many studies that confirm the elasticity of the brain and how kids today are "wired" meaning that the interconnections between neurons and different parts of the brain have different and more rich paths than previous generations that didn't experience the same quantity and quality of stimuli. Google is your friend …

For starters you can read "Teaching Digital Natives: Partnering for Real Learning" by Marc Prensky, and "Digital Natives & Digital Immigrants" by Johann Günther. There are some interesting excerpts of various books and studies included and/or mentioned in "The Digital Divide: Writings for and Against Facebook, Youtube, Texting and the Age of Social Networking" by Mark Bauerlein.

I don't watch TV and started reading Asimov when I was a little kid well before he had his heart attack. "Profession", which is not the complete title, is an allegoric short story about how kids are instantly educated by taping on their brains in the 60+ century.

Wish I had a USB interface to my brain to download ebooks instead going through the pair of slow speed scanners.

jamesh
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:02 pm

Skygod said:


JamesH; This is one of the problems that I have. You constantly use the term 'we' in both the home page blog and in the forum, but are you a Foundation member?

If it's a case that all Admins are getting privileged information, then where does the forum stand?

It's this 'in the dark' that we don't like. When many of us first signed up, it was 'Liz', Eben' 'Gert' and 'ukscone' that were able to give definitive answers.

Now we have 'JamesH', 'Michael' and 'Abishur' all answering 'on behalf' of the Foundation.

The foundation have already stated that the wiki is not 'Foundation' work.

We just want a roadmap of who is doing what; who is responsible for what and who can we trust to be giving accurate information on behalf of the Foundation?

Is Admin group a special 'chapter' of insiders that are tied to NDA's and have a brief to keep the 'proles' happy? The sarcastic and condescending replies from several of the Admins is become tiresome (especially on the blog).

(Oh, I've made an attack on a Mod, so I might get banned! I've contravened some Rule that I didn't now existed, so I may get banned! I've made a post that a 'god' doesn't like; I may get banned!)

I've been part of this community for 8 months and have done my utmost to promote the device locally and get 'buy in' from many people, but they are now looking at me as a charlatan. I passed on the RPF 'promises' and I've been made to look a fool.

THANKS GUYS! (and gals)


I am not a Foundation member (there are not many of those), but I work at Broadcom with Eben and others who are working on Raspi related things, so am also privy to information that cannot be disclosed, so in that respect, I am more thoroughly informed than many of the other mods and admins. I have also been on the forum as long as Gert and ukscone and Michael (longer maybe?).  Surprised you missed that. To be honest, I'm quite disappointed.  I must obviously try harder.

If people don't want sarcastic or condescending replies from mods and admins, don't wind them up by belittling their efforts or those of others of the Foundation. There are problems. YES WE KNOW. But constant harping on about them doesn't help one little bit. And constant harping on about the 'lack of information' is a red rag to a bull. Basically, because you are not in the dark as you seem to think.  You have lots more information than almost any other commercial project gives you. That's what winds me and other admins/mods up. People wanting more and more for less and less, when there are a load of people working their nads off trying to get stuff going for them, and all they do is complain.
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grumpyoldgit
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:19 pm

But Skygod and about half a dozen others are just trolls. there is absolutely nothing  that you or anyone else can say that will satisfy them. Close them or the topics down but it is pointless responding to them. It is even more pointless for a queue of mods to line up and reply, one after the other. It is a waste of your's and everyone else's time and probably means that important stuff is not getting done.

jamodio
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:23 pm

Have you ever thought that if people keep asking over and over the same questions, the answers may no be good enough or as easy to find as you believe ?

For example you just replied to a comment of mine on the blog in relation to the RoHS certification, where I never said if or if not the Foundation did it. RS sent a tweet with a link to a pair of pictures of a RS technician using a X-ray fluoroscopemeter for material analysis, which another polite person answer to my question about if RoHS certification was mandatory or not in the EU.

You jumped the gun and provided the comment saying that "The RoHS stuff was done by the Foundation, not RS", so in what part of the little corner of cyberspace controlled by RPF and its non-paid, non-members associates was reported that the Foundation did and completed the RoHS certification successfully ?

Skygod
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:23 pm

JamesH

Yes, I accept that we have been given more information than a commercial project, but we used to be given more timely information when it was treated solely as a charitable foundation project and every member of the forum was 'on board' with the aims of the charity.

There was never a 'commercial' aspect in the past. It was simply getting a device (or copycat devices) out to market to accomplish the Foundation goals.

George

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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:31 pm

Grumpyoldgit,

I am not a troll on this board.

I believe that the aims of the Foundation are worthy and wish them every success. The Rpi is merely a stepping stone to achieve their aims, however in forums, free speech has to be tolerated and if I have an opinion, I'll express it.

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Morgaine
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:40 pm

Grumpyoldgit said:


But Skygod and about half a dozen others are just trolls. there is absolutely nothing  that you or anyone else can say that will satisfy them. Close them or the topics down but it is pointless responding to them.



It would help matters a lot if you would stop calling other forum users trolls, Grumpyoldgit.  It does nothing for harmony on this forum, and only incites discord.

You wouldn't like it if they called you a fanboi, would you?  Well, maybe you would, who knows, but that wouldn't do anything for harmony either.  I suggest trying to live alongside other shades of opinion instead of calling people names.  Everyone is here out of a common interest, after all.

Morgaine.
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grumpyoldgit
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:44 pm

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck?

jamodio
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:50 pm

Grumpyoldgit said:


If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck?


Probably is a duck, but ducks don't have Internet access ... not yet


jamodio
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:57 pm

Excellent !!

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bwoodbury
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:06 pm

I would not want to be an Admin of this, or any other forum. It's a thankless job at the best of times and with what has been transpiring over the last few months being an Admin on this forum must be frustrating, aggravating, etc etc etc.

I, and I am sure many of the other forum members, REALLY do appreciate our Admins time and efforts.

But (wish there weren't any of those ) I also believe it should be part of an Admins responsibility to avoid being sarcastic and/or condescending when responding to members.

There are times when comments from Admins (like JamesH above - not meaning to single you out James, just a recent example ) are made in a response to a specific members post, but the response content refers to "people, you, they". Such comments can be seen by forum members as being directed at all of us, rather than at the specific forum member(s) that might have waved a red rag. If Admins are purposely directing sarcastic or condescending comments at forum members as a whole then I see that is a problem.

rmm200
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:18 pm

I don't mind if the admins are arbitrary as long as they keep the forums civil and useful.

Heck, for the new forum system I would like for the ability to vote up or down on posts, with enough downs automatically deleting them. I have a few in mind...

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scep
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:23 pm


Skygod said:

(Oh, I've made an attack on a Mod, so I might get banned! I've contravened some Rule that I didn't now existed, so I may get banned! I've made a post that a 'god' doesn't like; I may get banned!)


Since the forum started eight months and 15000 members ago, fewer than 30 people have been banned. Most of these were commercial spammers  – bans for direct personal attacks and repeated offensive posts are insignificant. This is a testament both to the attitude and behaviour of the members here, and the tolerance of the admins. No one, of course, has ever been banned for a making a post that an admin "doesn't like".

So whilst your straw man histrionics and veiled adhoms would get you banned on most forums, it is extremely unlikely here. Whatever you would like to believe.

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Jessie
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:34 pm

Awsome, so somone started a thread to try and give the foundation some praise.  Not only has it become de-railed it has also become troll bait.

Locked due to it being too far off topic.

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abishur
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:40 pm

Skygod said:


JamesH; This is one of the problems that I have. You constantly use the term 'we' in both the home page blog and in the forum, but are you a Foundation member?

If it's a case that all Admins are getting privileged information, then where does the forum stand?

It's this 'in the dark' that we don't like. When many of us first signed up, it was 'Liz', Eben' 'Gert' and 'ukscone' that were able to give definitive answers.

Now we have 'JamesH', 'Michael' and 'Abishur' all answering 'on behalf' of the Foundation.


I'd just like to point out that Michael, JamesH, and I have also all been admins from the very beginning.  And while JamesH isn't a part of the RPF, he's deeply involved in the project and his answers are worth their weight in gold. That you've been a member since September 21, 2011 and therefore been here more like 6 months (and 4 days), you have your information very, very wrong.
Dear forum: Play nice ;-)

Lynbarn
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:43 pm

bwoodbury said:


I would not want to be an Admin of this, or any other forum. It's a thankless job at the best of times and with what has been transpiring over the last few months being an Admin on this forum must be frustrating, aggravating, etc etc etc.

I, and I am sure many of the other forum members, REALLY do appreciate our Admins time and efforts.


True, it does have its downsides, and sometimes (well okay - often) as an admin, you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't, but that comes with the territory. Thanks for the appreciation.


But (wish there weren't any of those ) I also believe it should be part of an Admins responsibility to avoid being sarcastic and/or condescending when responding to members.

There are times when comments from Admins (like JamesH above - not meaning to single you out James, just a recent example ) are made in a response to a specific members post, but the response content refers to "people, you, they". Such comments can be seen by forum members as being directed at all of us, rather than at the specific forum member(s) that might have waved a red rag. If Admins are purposely directing sarcastic or condescending comments at forum members as a whole then I see that is a problem.


We are all individuals, and admins come at this from many different perspectives, as do all posters. Whilst I agree that admins DO have an additional responsibility to maintain a certain standard, it can be very galling to have to keep going over the same arguments time after time. The easiest answer is for admins to delete wayward posts without explanation, and ban anybody who utters a dissenting remark, but that is not what the admins (although I'm only speaking from my own perspective - other admins may feel differently) want. Such a policy would surely stifle discussion, would not help anyone in the end, and would not be inline with the RPF quest for openness. Anybody is entitled to express an opinion, but not if they resort to swearing, personal attacks, or continuosly repeating the same old argument ad nauseum. That is certainly my main criterion when moderating.

We all have very different senses of humour, which is often a big part of the problem - not understanding whether a particular post is serious or not. Also, it is very easy to type out a quick response to something that somebody else says, without really understanding what was meant - or how it could be interpreted.

To my mind, the most useful piece of software that could ever be written is one that intercepts all outgoing posts, emails etc, holds them for (say) 24 hours, then redisplays them, with the incoming item that triggered the response,  asking "IS that REALLY what (s)he meant? Did you REALLY mean to say this?"

poing
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:50 pm

Grumpyoldgit said:


But Skygod and about half a dozen others are just trolls.


Aw, come on. People like SkyGod and jamodio made very worthwhile contributions to this site and have extensive knowledge in certain fields. I do get a bit tired of the criticism of the foundation, as I didn't come up with the concept and am in awe, but everyone is shaped differently.

You're obviously not into 'professional digital cameras'. Reading those forums is a real laugh if you halfway know what you're talking about.

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abishur
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:55 pm

Woops, Jessie meant to have this thread locked, but I posted right after he did so which de facto unlocked it.  Locking it again
Dear forum: Play nice ;-)

tufty
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Re: Shouldn't we just give the foundation a break now?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:04 pm

scep said:


No one, of course, has ever been banned for a making a post that an admin "doesn"t like".


I believe this is the point where I criticise your fashion sense, and point out that jackboots really really don"t go with black jackets and lightning strike epaulettes.

Before this degrades into a total flamewar (as much as it ever does around here, the general standard of behaviour is incredibly high for a forum), there are a few points which may have been missed or have sunk under the noise threshold.

There is, as I see it, a distinct tendency to consider that the foundation can do no wrong.  This is wrong, no matter the good intentions and the undoubted stress that "they" have been under (I wouldn"t want to have been in their shoes for the last 5 or 6 months). A number of fairly large mistakes have been made, and they are mistakes that have been raised before the event by members of "the community" (for want of a better word, despite its echoes of Wikipedia infighting) – those warnings were all-too-often taken as unfounded criticism or "trolling" and shouted down (not necessarily by admins or members of the foundation, of course). That"s in the past, no point crying over spilt milk and all that jazz, but those who don"t learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them. It"s true that the foundation are trying something rather new, but it"s often the case that things are done the way they are because it works best that way.

For a long while now, I have suggested that the "scattergun" approach of selling boards to all comers and then hoping against all odds that "the community" (that damned word again) would come up with stuff that helps their goals was probably not going to work.  Now that the odds of getting a board are stacked 10:1 against members of this forum (let alone those of us who are here to actually do educational works rather than HTPC/MAME/etc), I am convinced that this approach simply will not work.  September 2012 is, if we follow the current path, a missed target; 2013 might possibly be achievable with good luck and a following wind.

Frankly, I think the foundation should take all or a good proportion of the 10K boards for themselves and distribute / sell / loan them as they see fit to people who are seen as progressing the foundation"s core goals, then leave RS & Farnell to handle manufacturing and sales for those who simply want a $35 Linux PC (amount of Pi per $35 may vary downwards in Farnell"s case).  Targetted delivery, with a requirement to actually deliver something, rather than say you"re gonna do one thing and then make yourself a HTPC/MAME/etc.  No, it"s not "fair", but it"s about the only thing that"s gonna get an educational tool out of the door before all hope is lost and people move on to other projects IMO.

The mods here rock, by the way (see what I did there?)

Simon

<edit> woops, looks like I killed the threadkill, although I would strongly criticise locking a thread because it's


trollbait


That's the kind of behaviour that gives people reason to criticise...

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