User avatar
ArborealSeer
Posts: 300
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:48 am
Location: South West, UK

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:39 pm

Alchemy said:


The Wiki performance benchmarks don't cover many areas.

Has anyone just Qsorted 100,000 integers? I'm most interested in integer and memory because that's what I expect Pi are quite strong at. Strong when you ask what 20 of them could do which equals the price of a PC.


that'd definitely be quite an interesting test result for me too..
Pi Status > Farnell, Arrived 24/5- RS, Arrived 1/6

User avatar
Lob0426
Posts: 2198
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:30 pm
Location: Susanville CA.
Contact: Website

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:49 pm

Slow response to the keyboard is not a performance measurement! I have an i7-2600 that will occasionally decide to not respond at all. All that denotes is that there is a whole lot going on in the background. This has happened on every system I have ever had, windows and non windows. And yes I know how to optimize the system for the best performance. I have seen these problems in virtual machines all of the time. VMware, Windows virtual machine, QEMU etc.

There is a big difference between your average "Windows" user and your average Facebook on anything user. If your average windows user started back with Win 3.0 and DOS then they are not going to have much problem. If they use an OS but can"t even clean out their own computer and take it to a shop, then they may have a lot of trouble with the RasPi. Unfortanely most of our kids fall into the latter category! They receive "keyboarding" in school. Give them all Win 3.1 and they will learn! lol.

On one hand you could say that if they need an icon to get into their Facebook, they are not going to be able to use a RasPi, on the other you could say that they need need a RasPi to get past that.
512MB version 2.0 as WordPress Server
Motorola Lapdock with Pi2B
Modded Rev 1.0 with pin headers at USB

http://rich1.dyndns.tv/
(RS)Allied ships old stock to reward its Customers for long wait!

lewmur
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:20 pm
Contact: Website

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:56 pm

hippy said:


Cylon said:


Burngate said:



I don't need multi-level security - none of my windows or RiscOs machines have passwords, and I don't want R-Pi to have them either!



Wether you need it or not its a good idea to understand both the principle and reasons behind it.


I think Burngate is in the same position as me; understands the principles and reasons but has made the informed decision to go the no password route.

Systems should arguably by default protect people from themselves but should also allow anyone to do what they explicitly choose to do, whether good or bad as others may see it. I want my R-Pi to be up and running without requiring username or password and hope that is provided for.


This has absolutely nothing to do with the Pi.  It's a Fedora thing.  Some Linux distros are very strict about passwords in general and root access in particular.  Others, like DSLinux, give root access by default and without a password.  Personally, I like the Debian approach which only requires a password for things that need "root privileges".

hippy
Posts: 8055
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:01 pm

lewmur said:

This has absolutely nothing to do with the Pi.  It's a Fedora thing.
As long as the distro provided for the R-Pi allows what I want to do I'll be happy.

lewmur
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:20 pm
Contact: Website

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:11 pm

hippy said:


lewmur said:


This has absolutely nothing to do with the Pi.  It's a Fedora thing.


As long as the distro provided for the R-Pi allows what I want to do I'll be happy.


There is no "distro provided for the R-Pi".  There are several distros that have been "ported" to the Pi that are available for download.  But YOU have to choose which one you want and then put it on an SD card.

The R-Pi Foundation says that it intends to offer "pre-loaded" SD cards for sale at a future time.  But at the present time, you have to buy an SD card, and load a distro on it, yourself.

User avatar
grumpyoldgit
Posts: 1452
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:20 pm

Though they have said that Fedora Mix will be the standard distro for the Pi. You can therefore expect that in the future when instructions are being compiled and advice given, the primary flavour will be Fedora.

I don't see this is a problem. I think it is a good thing. Whatever the fans of other distros may say, I do think that for the well being of n00bs, a standard approach is required.

There are now several hundred flavours of Linux, some of which are probably used by less than 10 people. Ubuntu, which is on more PCs than all the other flavours put together, decided to shoot itself in the foot by not supporting the Pi. I suspect it now feels like Lotus 123 when Excel was released!

User avatar
abishur
Posts: 4477
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:10 am
Location: USA
Contact: Website

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:08 pm

Grumpyoldgit said:

 Ubuntu, which is on more PCs than all the other flavours put together, decided to shoot itself in the foot by not supporting the Pi. I suspect it now feels like Lotus 123 when Excel was released!

HA!  I remember Lotus 123 (Excel had to pry the program out of my corpse before I finally made the switch over).  I find it interesting that this user had so many problems with speed, especially since we've seen XBMC moving along with no issue.  I guess the reasonable assumption is that the base OS on the Pi's using XBMC is making better use of the GPU.  Still considering the fact that the Fedora team specifically put this Remix together for the R-pi, it's understandable that there are a few features that haven't be completely implemented yet.

I'd be interested in seeing a review on the Debian disto and how it compares
Dear forum: Play nice ;-)

spurious
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:29 pm

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:12 pm

I've seen a fast PC run like a dog when there was no optimised video driver present.

So my guess would be this is the root cause.

Is there anyone actively working on an X driver for the GPU? (if that is the correct terminology)

User avatar
grumpyoldgit
Posts: 1452
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:13 pm

andytuk, who has access to pi #7 is doing a comparison of the three.

User avatar
abishur
Posts: 4477
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:10 am
Location: USA
Contact: Website

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:23 pm

Grumpyoldgit said:


andytuk, who has access to pi #7 is doing a comparison of the three.



exciting!
Dear forum: Play nice ;-)

User avatar
SN
Posts: 1014
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:06 pm
Location: Romiley, UK
Contact: Website

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:23 pm

Lotus 123. . . Spreadsheet n00bs

Anyone else used Visicalc?
Steve N – binatone mk4->intellivision->zx81->spectrum->cbm64->cpc6128->520stfm->pc->raspi ?

una.szplodrmann
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:28 pm

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:28 pm

DaQatz said:


Completely discounting the GPU. For day to day usage it will feel a lot using a 700mhz x86 cpu. How ever think more along the lines of VIA C7 at 700mhz, not AMD or INTEL. Chances are you will be a lot more slowed down but hitting the top of your ram, and being slowed down by swap.  Though on that not in the days of the 700mhz x86 the average ram was 64 megs not 256.


I will be interested to see how it performs compared to the Geode LX used on SBCs such as the PC Engines ALIX, for example.

The 256MB of RAM is quite obiously going to be the major limiting factor A 512MB or even 1GB version could be made perceptively quicker via selective use of tmpfs...

User avatar
grumpyoldgit
Posts: 1452
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:33 pm

And Multiplan!

User avatar
grumpyoldgit
Posts: 1452
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:40 pm

una.szplodrmann said:


DaQatz said:


Completely discounting the GPU. For day to day usage it will feel a lot using a 700mhz x86 cpu. How ever think more along the lines of VIA C7 at 700mhz, not AMD or INTEL. Chances are you will be a lot more slowed down but hitting the top of your ram, and being slowed down by swap.  Though on that not in the days of the 700mhz x86 the average ram was 64 megs not 256.


I will be interested to see how it performs compared to the Geode LX used on SBCs such as the PC Engines ALIX, for example.

The 256MB of RAM is quite obiously going to be the major limiting factor A 512MB or even 1GB version could be made perceptively quicker via selective use of tmpfs...


It's all going to depend on the applications used.

Puppy Linux just zips along in 512MB RAM on a i386 and I gather should perform similarly on the Pi with 256MB.

It will be interesting to see which applications perform well. Do we need bloated Office suites if only a limited number of functions ever get used?

I've not seen a matrix yet of the standard applications selected for the first three OS releases.

User avatar
jojopi
Posts: 3287
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:38 pm

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:47 pm

Grumpyoldgit said:

Anything that could even vaguely be considered to be a word will be rejected.
This is not true.  Because passwd(1) is running as superuser the "BAD PASSWORD" messages from pam_cracklib.so are only warnings.

You can set any non-blank password you want, provided that you manage to type it again correctly at the "Retype new password" prompt.

Forcing you to type the password twice is not a security measure; it is to protect against typos.

SN said:

No matter how hard you try you can not su from your dedicated new user to root - this makes it hard to do a controlled shutdown
This, and unlocking the screensaver, works fine for me.  Are there any useful log messages?

rmm200 said:

/tmp had permission problems,
In the official debian, arch, and fedora remix images, /tmp has permissions of 1777 octal, which is the only correct setting.  Could anyone having problems with this provide any more information?

tufty
Posts: 1456
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:32 pm

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:50 pm

Quantrix and Improv both kicked Excel"s arse technically, and still do. Quantrix ran on a 33Mhz 68040 with 4MB of ram.

lb
Posts: 265
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:07 pm

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:54 pm

DaQatz said:


I don't know where people got this number but it's inaccurate. On a "mhz to mhz" scale that performance belongs more in the ARMv3 generations. The raspberry pi is an arm11(ARMv6) and performs fairly well "mhz to mhz" next to the x86 cpu's.


No, it does not. The comparison to a 300 MHz Pentium II is fairly accurate.

In fact, Pentium II is an absolute beast compared to ARM11. It's a pretty advanced 3-issue out of order design (that means it can keep up to three instructions "in flight" concurrently and can reorder them, to load its 5 functional units more efficiently), has powerful SIMD instructions (MMX), and big hierarchical caches.

ARM11, on the other hand, is a simple single-issue in order design, lacks notable SIMD support, does not have any L2 cache.

Sorry, but you're so wrong on all counts, this just needs to be corrected!

User avatar
grumpyoldgit
Posts: 1452
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:59 pm

You need to decide folks. This is the extract from the FAQ, which has been quoted to me several times.

Overall real world performance is something like a 300MHz Pentium 2, only with much, much swankier graphics.

lewmur
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:20 pm
Contact: Website

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:02 pm

Grumpyoldgit said:


Though they have said that Fedora Mix will be the standard distro for the Pi. You can therefore expect that in the future when instructions are being compiled and advice given, the primary flavour will be Fedora.

I don't see this is a problem. I think it is a good thing. Whatever the fans of other distros may say, I do think that for the well being of n00bs, a standard approach is required.

There are now several hundred flavours of Linux, some of which are probably used by less than 10 people. Ubuntu, which is on more PCs than all the other flavours put together, decided to shoot itself in the foot by not supporting the Pi. I suspect it now feels like Lotus 123 when Excel was released!



First of all, just who is "they"?  The Foundation?  I don't think the Foundation has said any such thing.  It has enthusiastically greeted each new port into the fold.  But the Foundation has already let the Genie out of the bottle.  They will probably still control UK educational aspect for which the Pi was conceived.  But they have stated that the design of the Pi will be free to any commercial developer who wants it.  Which means they can no longer tell the Genie what to do.

That said, I think having a "standard" distro flies directly in the face of what the Pi is all about.  It is supposed to be used "teach" computing science vs computer use.  The convenience of noobs is far down on the list of priorities.  It isn't supposed to be a Windows type box where the user could care less "what under the hood", but only "can it play my music and videos" with the click of an icon.  Rather, it is supposed to be a box that forces its users to "get their hands dirty" in order to get anything useful done.

But which of us is correct matters not at all.  The Pi will become what the thousands upon thousands of people who are buying them want them to be.  And I dare say, someone will develop a package with a Pi, a touch screen and a preloaded SD card, all set up to play "media content" OOTB.  But I don't think that will be the main use for the Pi because by the time you package all that, you'd be right back in the range of the cheap Chinese pads already on the market.  You can buy a brand new Android powered 7" pad now for about $80 US.

Alchemy
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:10 pm

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:11 pm

I don't have a 300MHz PII. For me that's unknown compared to unknown.

User avatar
grumpyoldgit
Posts: 1452
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:12 pm

It took me five seconds to find this on the front page.

Raspberry Pi Fedora Remix, our recommended distro, is ready for download!

Fedora was declared the recommended distro several weeks ago.

Anyone can put whatever they like on the Pi but for the purposes of putting packages together for schools and casual users there has to be some sort of standardisation.

There are several hundred Linux distros in existence but if you were trying to communicate information or an idea to people you need to be speaking from the same hymn sheet.

lewmur
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:20 pm
Contact: Website

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:17 pm

Grumpyoldgit said:


It took me five seconds to find this on the front page.

Raspberry Pi Fedora Remix, our recommended distro, is ready for download!

Fedora was declared the recommended distro several weeks ago.

Anyone can put whatever they like on the Pi but for the purposes of putting packages together for schools and casual users there has to be some sort of standardisation.

There are several hundred Linux distros in existence but if you were trying to communicate information or an idea to people you need to be speaking from the same hymn sheet.


Sure.  And at the time, it was the ONLY distro that was available for download.  That is no longer true.  And even if that were still true, there is a BIG difference between a "recommended" distro and a "standard" distro.

User avatar
grumpyoldgit
Posts: 1452
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:21 pm

Alchemy said:


I don't have a 300MHz PII. For me that's unknown compared to unknown.


Think of your previous computer.

It's slower than that.

What this really means is that you need to be careful with the software that you select to run on the Pi. As an example, I think all the distros have agree that they won't be including LibreOffice as it is too bloated. You are more likely to run apps like Abiword and Gnumeric.

lb
Posts: 265
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:07 pm

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:24 pm

If you don't know how fast a Pentium II is, you probably know Intel Atom netbooks. Imagine an Intel Atom at 300-400 MHz, e.g. one quarter to one fifth of its regular speed.

User avatar
grumpyoldgit
Posts: 1452
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Re: How slow is it?

Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:24 pm

lewmur said:


Grumpyoldgit said:


It took me five seconds to find this on the front page.

Raspberry Pi Fedora Remix, our recommended distro, is ready for download!

Fedora was declared the recommended distro several weeks ago.

Anyone can put whatever they like on the Pi but for the purposes of putting packages together for schools and casual users there has to be some sort of standardisation.

There are several hundred Linux distros in existence but if you were trying to communicate information or an idea to people you need to be speaking from the same hymn sheet.


Sure.  And at the time, it was the ONLY distro that was available for download.  That is no longer true.  And even if that were still true, there is a BIG difference between a "recommended" distro and a "standard" distro.


I think you need to have another look round the site; Fedora is the most recent distro to be released. Debian and Arch came out a little while ago but even then it had been announced that Fedora was to be the standard distro

Return to “General discussion”