W. H. Heydt
Posts: 11475
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:15 pm

teeth_03 wrote:Well, I am aware of the cubieboard, support looks sketchy so I was never much interested.
Agreed, though the use of Berryboot and Raspbian does add a dgree of "outside" informal support. This issue is one of the reasons why I consider the use of the Cubieboards temporary.
But if the Foundation plans on being around for a while, eventually they will be able to put a faster CPU in for the same price as current models.
Eben has said that he expects the Pi to continue in production as long as the parts are available (and if there is sufficient sales volume, the Pi itself could insure that the parts do remain available). As a result, I would expect a faster board from the Foundation to be a completely new design and targeted to a somewhat different purpose, such as "server" in support of the Pi. If you look at projects like streaming educational content to a group of Pis (especially in places with unreliable or nonexistent broadband connections), a somewhat more capable--and capacious--device might be quite attractive. For places with more money and better connectivity, such a device would have a myriad of other uses.

The12stringwizard
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:40 am

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:27 pm

jamesh wrote:
The12stringwizard wrote:The form factor should be somewhat like the PRE-ALPHA (usb-stick size)
except with micro usb instead of the ribbon cable and make pins/cinch connector for composite.
AND ADD A DAMN WIFI ADAPTOR!!!
Image
I think there would be some problem in fitting on the full size HDMI, ethernet, the twin host USB, the GPIO, audio, and the general purpose CSI and DSI connectors on that board.

Would be nice to have one in that form factor, but it wouldn't be as good as the current device for most tasks.
Omit the extra crap,
and if you prefer a credit card size, they should try this layout
|=µUSB=HDMI=ETH.=AV==|
|-------------------------------------SD
|----------------------------------------|
|===USB========AUD==|

AND PLEASE ROUND THE EDGES OF THE DAMN BOARD!

mung
Posts: 506
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:49 am

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:25 pm

Is it true ddr3 memory is now cheaper than ddr2, is it available in pop sandwich form, does the broadcom chip support ddr3?

Would it be possible to have a ddr3 pop package with bga both sides and sandwich another bcm layer on top giving more processors and shared memory between processors?

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 24979
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:00 am

The12stringwizard wrote:
jamesh wrote:
The12stringwizard wrote:The form factor should be somewhat like the PRE-ALPHA (usb-stick size)
except with micro usb instead of the ribbon cable and make pins/cinch connector for composite.
AND ADD A DAMN WIFI ADAPTOR!!!
Image
I think there would be some problem in fitting on the full size HDMI, ethernet, the twin host USB, the GPIO, audio, and the general purpose CSI and DSI connectors on that board.

Would be nice to have one in that form factor, but it wouldn't be as good as the current device for most tasks.
Omit the extra crap,
and if you prefer a credit card size, they should try this layout
|=µUSB=HDMI=ETH.=AV==|
|-------------------------------------SD
|----------------------------------------|
|===USB========AUD==|

AND PLEASE ROUND THE EDGES OF THE DAMN BOARD!
We could omit the extra 'crap', but then it would be bloody useless to the vast majority of users. Because it's not, actually, crap.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I own the world’s worst thesaurus. Not only is it awful, it’s awful."

User avatar
liz
Raspberry Pi Foundation Employee & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Foundation Employee & Forum Moderator
Posts: 5202
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:22 pm
Contact: Website

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:33 pm

*Points at James*

What he said.
Director of Communications, Raspberry Pi

The12stringwizard
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:40 am

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:12 pm

The form factor should be somewhat like the PRE-ALPHA (usb-stick size)
except with micro usb instead of the ribbon cable and make pins/cinch connector for composite.
AND ADD A DAMN WIFI ADAPTOR!!!
Image[/quote]

I think there would be some problem in fitting on the full size HDMI, ethernet, the twin host USB, the GPIO, audio, and the general purpose CSI and DSI connectors on that board.

jamesh: Would be nice to have one in that form factor, but it wouldn't be as good as the current device for most tasks.

Omit the extra crap,
and if you prefer a credit card size, they should try this layout
|=µUSB=HDMI=ETH.=AV==|
|-------------------------------------SD
|----------------------------------------|
|===USB========AUD==|

AND PLEASE ROUND THE EDGES OF THE DAMN BOARD![/quote][/quote]

jamesh: We could omit the extra 'crap', but then it would be bloody useless to the vast majority of users. Because it's not, actually, crap.

a full featured one would have a port layout somewhat like the one I presented in ASCII art above

alesbedac
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:08 pm

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:12 pm

Hello,
in my opinion is not actually HW bad, but i have some ideas :
- Ram size min 2GB or to use the slot (SoDIMM DDR3 up to 8GB)
- locate all connectors on one side (back) and one USB to (FRONT or side) side
- 4xUSB on back side
- 1xUSB on front side
- better CPU Performance
- remove Analog video output ?
- digital audio output
- gbit ethernet or 2x100mbit
- integrated WiFi (n)
- integrated irda receiver (front side) ?
- 1xSATA interface
- 4x fixing holes on PCB
- Windows CE support ?
- battery connector ?

What is OK as form me :
- SD card (is more resistant than the microSD card)
- the PCB size
- GPIO connectivity

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 11475
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:20 pm

alesbedac wrote:Hello,
in my opinion is not actually HW bad, but i have some ideas :
- Ram size min 2GB or to use the slot (SoDIMM DDR3 up to 8GB)
- locate all connectors on one side (back) and one USB to (FRONT or side) side
- 4xUSB on back side
- 1xUSB on front side
- better CPU Performance
- remove Analog video output ?
- digital audio output
- gbit ethernet or 2x100mbit
- integrated WiFi (n)
- integrated irda receiver (front side) ?
- 1xSATA interface
- 4x fixing holes on PCB
- Windows CE support ?
- battery connector ?

What is OK as form me :
- SD card (is more resistant than the microSD card)
- the PCB size
- GPIO connectivity
Here is a challenge for you...figure out a way to manufacture a device with those specifications so that it can have a retail price of $35.

The Pi is a compromise machine. The price was set and then anything that wasn't needed or wouldn't work within the allowed price was removed. Would it be nice to have the feature-set you want? I suppose. It isn't the list I'd pick as ideal, but it's a reasonably nice set. (I would much rather have one or two SATA ports than more USB ports or 2GB RAM, for instance.) Can it be done within the parameters set? At this time, I don't think so. By the time it can be done for a $35 machine, those feature will appear to be "quaint" at best.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 24979
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:32 pm

alesbedac wrote:Hello,
in my opinion is not actually HW bad, but i have some ideas :
- Ram size min 2GB or to use the slot (SoDIMM DDR3 up to 8GB)
- locate all connectors on one side (back) and one USB to (FRONT or side) side
- 4xUSB on back side
- 1xUSB on front side
- better CPU Performance
- remove Analog video output ?
- digital audio output
- gbit ethernet or 2x100mbit
- integrated WiFi (n)
- integrated irda receiver (front side) ?
- 1xSATA interface
- 4x fixing holes on PCB
- Windows CE support ?
- battery connector ?

What is OK as form me :
- SD card (is more resistant than the microSD card)
- the PCB size
- GPIO connectivity
We don't need to make a device like that - it already exists and is known as a PC motherboard.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
“I own the world’s worst thesaurus. Not only is it awful, it’s awful."

User avatar
Lob0426
Posts: 2198
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:30 pm
Location: Susanville CA.
Contact: Website

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:12 am

alesbedac wrote:Hello,
in my opinion is not actually HW bad, but i have some ideas :
- Ram size min 2GB or to use the slot (SoDIMM DDR3 up to 8GB)
- locate all connectors on one side (back) and one USB to (FRONT or side) side
- 4xUSB on back side
- 1xUSB on front side
- better CPU Performance
- remove Analog video output ?
- digital audio output
- gbit ethernet or 2x100mbit
- integrated WiFi (n)
- integrated irda receiver (front side) ?
- 1xSATA interface
- 4x fixing holes on PCB
- Windows CE support ?
- battery connector ?
Its called the Intel Next Unit of Computing. About $450 should be right!
Sorry, I just could not find an answer for this "request"
512MB version 2.0 as WordPress Server
Motorola Lapdock with Pi2B
Modded Rev 1.0 with pin headers at USB

http://rich1.dyndns.tv/
(RS)Allied ships old stock to reward its Customers for long wait!

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 11475
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:38 am

Lob0426 wrote: Its called the Intel Next Unit of Computing. About $450 should be right!
Sorry, I just could not find an answer for this "request"
Newegg has various models ranging from $165 to $300, but after you add the gear needed to make it function (like memory), yeah, $450 probably isn't too far off the mark.

alesbedac
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:08 pm

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:58 am

Thats was ideas...what is possible or not (because the Prize) must bude reminded...:-)

teeth_03
Posts: 284
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:02 am

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:30 am

Zotac makes a line of decent Nano PCs as well, and unlike Intel, they actually have USB 3 ports.

User avatar
Lob0426
Posts: 2198
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:30 pm
Location: Susanville CA.
Contact: Website

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:47 pm

The point is that that list of desires, on a RasPi remake, is more than a little over the top. What he wanted was a ridiculous RasPi or a neutered PC.

If the goal was to push the limits of an ARM device then he was asking for a Panda Board that would cost $500. Actually he has asked for a Trim-Slice which is a ARM based PC and very expensive!

http://www.omappedia.com/wiki/PandaBoard
http://trimslice.com/web/

Or he could go out to Wal-Mart and get that as a PC for under $300 ready to plug in.

It is not as if he is the only one that has asked for all of those features in a board that can be put in your pocket! I am not trying to bash him either. I just think that he needs to put the "requests" into the context of a $35 computer!
512MB version 2.0 as WordPress Server
Motorola Lapdock with Pi2B
Modded Rev 1.0 with pin headers at USB

http://rich1.dyndns.tv/
(RS)Allied ships old stock to reward its Customers for long wait!

User avatar
Lob0426
Posts: 2198
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:30 pm
Location: Susanville CA.
Contact: Website

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:26 pm

What I would like to see is a RasPi Server.
No fancy GPU really needed.
possibly v7 instructions ARM
512MB
USB based Ethernet ok but would like to see a native Ethernet.
1 USB port to connect HDD's or cameras.
Enhanced GPIO pin outs.

no onboard hub (unless we need it for the Ethernet), we can use an externally powered hub if we need it.

So what you really end up with is a RasPi with a Ethernet port, USB port (I would rather see a USB pin header), A power port and maybe a monitor port of some sort. Though a monitor port is not really needed at all

This one would be good for SERVER projects. Great for robotics and home automation projects. Keep it real simple, reduce the need for onboard real-estate by doing away with connectors. Maybe get more capable ARM and possibly slightly faster.

Most important of all keep it at or below $35

I think the question would be if this device would serve the foundations education goals. I believe it would. Especially for more advanced students. It would still be able to meet the foundations programming and learning but mostly as a remote device. That is one of places where they will disagree with me, and that is in the GPU and monitor connector. I think they would still want a direct video interface onto the device.
512MB version 2.0 as WordPress Server
Motorola Lapdock with Pi2B
Modded Rev 1.0 with pin headers at USB

http://rich1.dyndns.tv/
(RS)Allied ships old stock to reward its Customers for long wait!

OtherCrashOverride
Posts: 582
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:25 am

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:24 pm

Lob0426 wrote:What I would like to see is a RasPi Server.
No fancy GPU really needed.
possibly v7 instructions ARM
512MB
USB based Ethernet ok but would like to see a native Ethernet.
1 USB port to connect HDD's or cameras.
Enhanced GPIO pin outs.
That already exists: its the BeagleBoard Black for $45. For the extra cost above $35, you get 2GB on board-flash and a usb cable.

On-board flash and the ability to act as a USB device instead of host would be nice to have on the next RPi. They enable new use categories.

User avatar
Lob0426
Posts: 2198
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:30 pm
Location: Susanville CA.
Contact: Website

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:43 pm

OtherCrashOverride wrote:
Lob0426 wrote:What I would like to see is a RasPi Server.
No fancy GPU really needed.
possibly v7 instructions ARM
512MB
USB based Ethernet ok but would like to see a native Ethernet.
1 USB port to connect HDD's or cameras.
Enhanced GPIO pin outs.
That already exists: its the BeagleBoard Black for $45. For the extra cost above $35, you get 2GB on board-flash and a usb cable.

On-board flash and the ability to act as a USB device instead of host would be nice to have on the next RPi. They enable new use categories.
LOL! Already have a Panda Board ES, 5 RasPii (3 x 256MB rev1, 2 x 512MB) and a Windows Home Server built from an Atom 330 board.

That beagle Bone Black looks interesting and the price is not bad. It would definitely work as a server, and could be a reasonable competitor to the RasPi, with some more software development.

Guess that proves the Raspberry Pi has had an influence on the market. The original Beagle Bone is still $89. But if the Beagle Bone Black is only $45 then the foundation could do a RasPi Server for probably $25. The beagle boards are still relatively expensive.

The biggest thing you will not find for the Beagle Boards and the Panda Boards is the community effort behind them. There is a lot more work being carried out on the Raspberry Pi than on the other boards that are and will be available. If any of these other boards put half as much effort into their community as the foundation then they would be a much better proposition than they currently are! It looks like there has been a change at Beagle Board org. They now have a discussion group that was not there before. Panda Board has still not learned the lesson yet though ;).

The difference is that of a "development platform" or a end user device. The RasPi is an end user device that can be used to produce other devices. You cannot legally do that with the developer boards. And again the community support is much better, why? Because there are people experimenting with RasPii and not mostly developers hiding their work from the other developers.

I think the one thing that really would be important is to try to keep the software as similar as possible in any new board the Foundation might decide to build. Continuity would be the real challenge in any future boards!
512MB version 2.0 as WordPress Server
Motorola Lapdock with Pi2B
Modded Rev 1.0 with pin headers at USB

http://rich1.dyndns.tv/
(RS)Allied ships old stock to reward its Customers for long wait!

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 11475
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:27 pm

Lob0426 wrote:What I would like to see is a RasPi Server.
No fancy GPU really needed.
possibly v7 instructions ARM
512MB
USB based Ethernet ok but would like to see a native Ethernet.
1 USB port to connect HDD's or cameras.
Enhanced GPIO pin outs.
Change the following as stated:

1GB memory,
2 USB plus OTG USB port
SATA II port , plus 1A, 5V power connector

For $50, you get a Cubiebord which meets all your specs (including ARM7 and "no fancy GPU").

It also has HDMI out, audio line-in, and 4GB onboard flash.

It doesn't have a particularly large support community, though, so far as I can tell.

User avatar
Lob0426
Posts: 2198
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:30 pm
Location: Susanville CA.
Contact: Website

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:52 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Lob0426 wrote:What I would like to see is a RasPi Server.
No fancy GPU really needed.
possibly v7 instructions ARM
512MB
USB based Ethernet ok but would like to see a native Ethernet.
1 USB port to connect HDD's or cameras.
Enhanced GPIO pin outs.
Change the following as stated:

1GB memory,
2 USB plus OTG USB port
SATA II port , plus 1A, 5V power connector

For $50, you get a Cubiebord which meets all your specs (including ARM7 and "no fancy GPU").

It also has HDMI out, audio line-in, and 4GB onboard flash.

It doesn't have a particularly large support community, though, so far as I can tell.
I have to admit the SATA would be nice for a server. So would the 1Gb. The 1GHz is about right also. The price is $54.50 before shipping at a reseller here in the U.S.. The community support is about on par with that for the beagle boards. It does have more GPIO, but it has connectors all over it also, making it heavy (I know I did not mention weight before). The software available for it are somewhat limited but would work for me. There is a Cubieboard2 with a newer SoC, the A20 (dual core), on it. The boards are the same as the A20 is pin compatible with the A10 Allwinner. Some interesting developments there though.

But my WordPress server runs just fine in 256MB and only a little better on a 512MB. And the main point of this discussion is what we would like to see from the Foundation, later.

Keeping down the connector count and complexity would make a RasPi server board a better starting point for many projects. I would rather have switching regulators with the ability to use a wider voltage range than the 1GB memory. Of course you can order a "Base Board" for it around $30 that adds switching regs for 5v and 3.3v.

There really have been a lot of projects with the RasPi that needed very little GPU for them to work well. The Beagle Bone Black and the Cubieboard have more GPU than is really necessary for a server, just like the RasPi.

Overall the choices now are much better than they were a year and a half ago! There are still some expensive developer boards out there like the Panda Board ES and the Beagle Board -xm , but there are some good choices under $70 now too! And I hope to see even more choices in the near future.
512MB version 2.0 as WordPress Server
Motorola Lapdock with Pi2B
Modded Rev 1.0 with pin headers at USB

http://rich1.dyndns.tv/
(RS)Allied ships old stock to reward its Customers for long wait!

User avatar
littlebit
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:03 am

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:22 pm

I don't know if my suggestion was already discussed, if so please point me where it has been discussed.

what would be really good is to add usb headers onto the board so that if someone develops a USB device, but want to save the usb ports for something else like mouse & keyboard, or even harddisk.
This gives users to add home brew PCB developed usb devices that they can plug in, or even a 3.5" all in one card reader like the ones used to replace the good old floppy drive. They come as a usb device and are plugged onto the headers.

itimpi
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:44 am
Location: Potters Bar, United Kingdom
Contact: Website

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:25 pm

littlebit wrote:I don't know if my suggestion was already discussed, if so please point me where it has been discussed.

what would be really good is to add usb headers onto the board so that if someone develops a USB device, but want to save the usb ports for something else like mouse & keyboard, or even harddisk.
This gives users to add home brew PCB developed usb devices that they can plug in, or even a 3.5" all in one card reader like the ones used to replace the good old floppy drive. They come as a usb device and are plugged onto the headers.
Adding USB headers only makes sense if the chipset in use has the capability to drive such headers. As far as I know the SoC used in the Pi cannot drive any additional USB channels.

User avatar
littlebit
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:03 am

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:30 pm

Well it would be great at least to develop small breakout usb hubs that we can integrate into a case.

User avatar
Lob0426
Posts: 2198
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:30 pm
Location: Susanville CA.
Contact: Website

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:54 pm

littlebit wrote:Well it would be great at least to develop small breakout usb hubs that we can integrate into a case.
For my back-powered RasPii I removed the USB connectors from the board (B model) and soldered wires from the board to the uplink port on a mini powered hub. Then modified the hub to supply power to the RasPi.

I suggested to Adafruit that they build a case with a hub and a single PSU for the RasPi. Never heard a word back. It would make sense to have such a case/hub. Really reduces the wiring mess compared to using a RasPi, a hub, USB cable and two PSU's.

Look at my website to see the USB hub powered project. The site is on a 512MB RasPi that is hub powered using WordPress. It was on a very modified 256MB ver 1.0 board until last week when I decided to upgrade it.
512MB version 2.0 as WordPress Server
Motorola Lapdock with Pi2B
Modded Rev 1.0 with pin headers at USB

http://rich1.dyndns.tv/
(RS)Allied ships old stock to reward its Customers for long wait!

User avatar
RaTTuS
Posts: 10531
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:12 am
Location: North West UK
Contact: Twitter YouTube

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:59 pm

How To ask Questions :- http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
WARNING - some parts of this post may be erroneous YMMV

1QC43qbL5FySu2Pi51vGqKqxy3UiJgukSX
Covfefe

User avatar
littlebit
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:03 am

Re: RaspBerry Pi(e) Model C (imaginations & wants)

Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:04 pm

@Lob0426: really neat work. Just as a feedback to your pictures, could you add bigger pictures?

@RaTTuS: he he, saw that project too. That was actually the reason y I got this simple suggestion. :D

Return to “General discussion”