marl_scot
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Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:44 pm

Everyone says that kids lying is a natural thing, but what i dont understand is why a site would ASK a child to lie just to get a free download???

Members have posted saying that the downloads are available on the internet, maybe they could tell me how they expect a newcomer to linux and the raspberry would know how/where the other 'registration free' repos are? Maybe there should be a link on the signup page saying 'if you dont want to give personal info for free content, click here to learn how to change your repos' (and then explain to non linux users what a 'repo' is!!!!)

I really feel that asking users to give up there email address etc. is really against the idea of trying to get kids (and adults) to learn something new.
If the basis behind the PI was the old BBC micros, then maybe they should remember that you didnt have to give Acorn your personal details to get a BBC, nor did you have to give the BBC (TV) your personal details (other than your TV licence which was nothing to do with Open University or the BBC Micro).

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abishur
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Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:46 pm

mediakill wrote:Again still not sure why registration is required to visit the store to download free apps? what is this apple and you guys need to track everything. Just make the free downloads excessible to everyone and require an account for the pay downloads. Not sure where the logic lies in you guys needing to track for the free downloads because its not making much sense to have to register just to get free apps. :roll:
Sorry to necro this but I just saw this post and need to address. As liz stated above the need is not that they're tracking things, the need is because the law requires it. I can certainly agree with you about the absurdity of such laws, but the law is the law.
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marl_scot
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Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:01 pm

People keep saying that the law is the law, and the site has to conform to the law.
The law ONLY takes effect when a site stores personal information on a user (eg. username/email address/password). What I dont understand is WHY do you require personal details for free software?

noob
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Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:59 am

why is an account required? most of the stuff you download is free, and those 2 or 3 things that you should pay for can just be put in the buy codecs section.

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Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:35 pm

I hope Liz will be able to give a more accurate reply soon, but my take onn it is that the Foundation themselves do not have the facilities or money to run their own store servers, so they need to piggy back on another store. So therefore the rules for that store are the rules that need to be followed. So really, you should be asking IndiCity (?) why they require you to register for free downloads.

But, I can see at least one reason - advertising. Even free downloads need to be paid for (servers are not free), and your details are one way of paying for them. It seems to be the way the internet is going - there are few opportunities to actually make money (even if only to break even, I'm not talking about making yourself rich), and one of those ways is personal information and therefore targeted advertising.
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Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:36 pm

noob wrote:why is an account required? most of the stuff you download is free, and those 2 or 3 things that you should pay for can just be put in the buy codecs section.
From tiny acorns etc etc. The store is expected to get larger over time, and running a full blown store is out of the reach of the Foundation.
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Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:35 pm

jamesh wrote:the Foundation themselves do not have the facilities or money to run their own store servers, so they need to piggy back on another store.
You are making it sound like it would cost a fortune.
But you already have the infrastructure:

1) a web server, e.g. the one that is serving this forum...
2) 50-something mirror servers for Raspbian

Can use apt://name-of-package URLs to link from 1 to 2, provided you include the apturl program to handle those with Raspbian..
Ubuntu does that as well for their webcatalog
Could even borrow their site's code, as its on launchpad.


Only thing that it does not provide is a payment infrastructure.
Is that the real problem?

marl_scot
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Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:45 pm

jamesh wrote:But, I can see at least one reason - advertising. Even free downloads need to be paid for (servers are not free), and your details are one way of paying for them
Don't know about anyone else, but that sounds like selling our details to the highest bidder!
They certainly don't need our personal details to place adverts on the site, if they wanted targeted advertising, they could use cookies like everyone else!

So yet another reason to not give them my details, if they are required for this hosting company to 'make a profit'!

Not having the money to run big servers, I can understand, bandwidth is not cheep, but I'm sure you could find a few big hosting companies that would love to have there names linked to such a project, and give bandwidth in return! This is a model used by lots of other software repos.

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Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:04 pm

marl_scot wrote:
jamesh wrote:But, I can see at least one reason - advertising. Even free downloads need to be paid for (servers are not free), and your details are one way of paying for them
Don't know about anyone else, but that sounds like selling our details to the highest bidder!
They certainly don't need our personal details to place adverts on the site, if they wanted targeted advertising, they could use cookies like everyone else!

So yet another reason to not give them my details, if they are required for this hosting company to 'make a profit'!

Not having the money to run big servers, I can understand, bandwidth is not cheep, but I'm sure you could find a few big hosting companies that would love to have there names linked to such a project, and give bandwidth in return! This is a model used by lots of other software repos.
OK, don't use them then! It's a simple choice. If you think the Foundation are selling your details to the highest bidder, then don't use the facilities (we don't sell anyone details btw, I don't know about Indiecity who run the PiStore, but I suspect they don;t either)

Do you use Google? Amazon? Targeted advertising is somewhat more sophisticated that 'using cookies'. If giving details to Indeicity brings you out in hives, I suggest you don't look up how Google etc track you! Palpitations at least.

And if you read my comment carefully, I suggested that MIGHT be a reason why you have to give details, not that it WAS a reason.
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Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:07 pm

Max wrote:
jamesh wrote:the Foundation themselves do not have the facilities or money to run their own store servers, so they need to piggy back on another store.
You are making it sound like it would cost a fortune.
But you already have the infrastructure:

1) a web server, e.g. the one that is serving this forum...
2) 50-something mirror servers for Raspbian

Can use apt://name-of-package URLs to link from 1 to 2, provided you include the apturl program to handle those with Raspbian..
Ubuntu does that as well for their webcatalog
Could even borrow their site's code, as its on launchpad.

Only thing that it does not provide is a payment infrastructure.
Is that the real problem?
You don't seem to have much idea of how much this costs to do. It's certainly not as cheap or easy as you make out. Which is why most companies contract out this sort of thing. Few people run their own stores on their own servers. The Foundation has TWO full time employees, one in development, the other doing other stuff. You needs at least a full time employee to handle this sort of thing - it's simply not cost effective.
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marl_scot
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Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:18 pm

jamesh wrote:OK, don't use them then! It's a simple choice. If you think the Foundation are selling your details to the highest bidder, then don't use the facilities (we don't sell anyone details btw, I don't know about Indiecity who run the PiStore, but I suspect they don;t either)

Do you use Google? Amazon? Targeted advertising is somewhat more sophisticated that 'using cookies'. If giving details to Indeicity brings you out in hives, I suggest you don't look up how Google etc track you! Palpitations at least.

And if you read my comment carefully, I suggested that MIGHT be a reason why you have to give details, not that it WAS a reason.
Hi,
I did NOT say that I thought the Foundation was selling our details! I said it sounded like the Hosting company (IE. Indeicity) would make a profit by selling our details!
And yes i do use Google and Amazon, i also seam to remember that unless you sign into your account, they use cookies to track your actions. eg. Google stick a cookie on your computer, and they record every search you make against that cookie, therefore allowing them to build up a profile of your usage and display targeted advertising to you.

Also the whole point of this discussion was the fact that the foundation are using a provider who's policies are to promote children to lie about there age (and please don't say things like, they can always ask there parents, as this doesn't happen very often these days!)

I am simply saying that I feel the foundation should consider other alternatives for the free software that is used on the PI's. By all means use Indeicity for the paid stuff, but make use of the community out there for the free stuff.
Yes, anyone can download the free software without using indeiecity, but how many users have the know how to do that?
It took me months to learn how to download packages manually when I started using Linux (and i still find it a pain to do after more than 10 years!).

Max

Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:24 pm

jamesh wrote:You don't seem to have much idea of how much this costs to do.
Arguments for that please.
jamesh wrote:Few people run their own stores on their own servers.
Again, you already have the servers I mentioned at your disposal: http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianMirrors
That's one very big (cost saving) difference between you and other people.

And no, I do not think that setting up the catalog website part is a full time job.
In fact I think there are plenty of high school students capable of designing and maintaining that for pocket money, school credits or as part of a competiton.

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Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:39 am

jamesh wrote: Do you use Google? Amazon? Targeted advertising is somewhat more sophisticated that 'using cookies'. If giving details to Indeicity brings you out in hives, I suggest you don't look up how Google etc track you! Palpitations at least.
Don't forget about Facebook! It's insane the amount of data we give them that they turn around and sell of wholesale! And the photos you upload? Hope you read the fine print on the terms and conditions for those ;-)
Max wrote:
jamesh wrote:You don't seem to have much idea of how much this costs to do.
Arguments for that please.
I worked for a time at a place that decided to handle its own web hosting. In addition to the legal hurdles that had to be dealt with (which was quite the pretty penny in and of itself) there were:

1. The cost of purchasing the servers (which I'll go ahead and roll installation of said servers into that cost)
2. The cost of renting storage space in a data center for the servers
3. The cost of bandwidth (which sadly is not a "X dollars get's you this much speed for uploads and this much for downloads, but rather a "this much total usage for month")
4. The cost of the load balancer (to make sure that no one server gets overloaded)
5. The cost of keeping someone on staff to deal with day to day maintenance of the server
6. The cost of keeping a legal person on staff to deal with the lawsuits from the game that gets uploaded that isn't kid friendly but sneaks by

I might be forgetting some things but 1-4 alone costs thousands of dollars (the load balancer we bought for just two servers was used and cost about 4K) for just the initial setup. Now adding onto that is the reoccurring costs of storage and bandwidth.

Once you get into 5&6 you hit the salary level. You *might* be able to get by without the lawyer, but even an IT guy is going to be 50K a year.

And there might be an important distinction here. I an individual can host a website or even donate some of my bandwidth as a repository mirror with little cost, but this is a device that has sold almost (or possibly more than by now) a million units, even discounting repeat customers, customers who have thrown it in a desk with their other ARM boards, and people who don't use it for entertainment purposes, you still have a huge chunk of people downloading and uploading programs, this isn't a level that can be handled by non industry standard means. And as an internationally recognized foundation, it's not a legal area to be entered into lightly just because you don't want to give a small degree of personal information (no offense, I don't have a problem with not wanting to sign up, just with making a fuss about it ;-) )
jamesh wrote:
Max wrote:Few people run their own stores on their own servers.
Again, you already have the servers I mentioned at your disposal: http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianMirrors
That's one very big (cost saving) difference between you and other people.
Actually the mirrors you mentioned are not at our disposal. People have graciously donated their bandwidth to hosting the raspbian repositories, but they haven't offered them for this.
Max wrote: And no, I do not think that setting up the catalog website part is a full time job.
In fact I think there are plenty of high school students capable of designing and maintaining that for pocket money, school credits or as part of a competiton.
Respectfully, you're thinking too small time. Setting up a catalog website could indeed be done by high school students using their parents bandwidth and an old computer. This however is much, much grander and in an overly litigious society proper precautions must be in place, aside from the every day demands of an app store site.
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Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:28 am

You are forgetting the complexities of online money transfer which is not cheap either unless you run a big retail outlet and can absorb these costs. Alone for that reason it is wise to pass this on to those who have experience with running online stores and who are willing to carry the legal burden that comes with it. And as far as age goes, purchases are legal contracts and in many places children under a specific age are not considered mature enough to sign or negotiate contracts. This is why five year olds cannot buy go to a dealership and buy a car. There are exceptions such as penny candy and the gum ball machine.
I think it was a wise decision to outsource non-core activities such as the store. Many organizations and companies do that and it has to do with cost, legal issues, and the fact that providers focusing on online retail generally do a better job at it than novices with a bunch of servers.
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Max

Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:45 pm

abishur wrote: Actually the mirrors you mentioned are not at our disposal. People have graciously donated their bandwidth to hosting the raspbian repositories, but they haven't offered them for this.
Don't see how adding user contributed Debian packages to the repo conflicts with the purpose the mirrors are for.
Note I meant using them as storage for the free packages.
You are forgetting the complexities of online money transfer which is not cheap either unless you run a big retail outlet and can absorb these costs.
You guys are focusing too much on the commercial content.

I do not have any objection with the current store as a commercial platform, where developers can put what they created themselves for sale.
What makes me uneasy is that you (or the company you outsourced the store to) are also repackaging free software you did not write, and put it behind your "paywall" with personal details as currency.
That may be legal, but there are still some ethical issues with it.

Yes, I could simply get my software elsewhere, I know how that works.
But you (or the partners you work with) are also actively promoting your store for education, without teaching about the alternatives.
First the educational manual (ironically under CC BY-non-commercial-SA license) was first released in your store, before elsewhere.
Now the OCR classroom resources point readers to your store to download LibreOffice, with no word on installing software in any other way.
Wonder how long it will take before some resources are no longer offered outside of the store, and signing up will no longer be that optional in practice if you need it to complete some assignment.

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Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:51 am

Max wrote:
I do not have any objection with the current store as a commercial platform, where developers can put what they created themselves for sale.
What makes me uneasy is that you (or the company you outsourced the store to) are also repackaging free software you did not write, and put it behind your "paywall" with personal details as currency.
That may be legal, but there are still some ethical issues with it.
They are not repackaging software themselves, they are hosting software packaged by the developers of the software who have asked the pi store to host it for them. They are not just trawling the internet and grabbing stuff to put in the store willy-nilly so there are no ethical problems with it at all

Max

Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:50 am

ukscone wrote: They are not repackaging software themselves, they are hosting software packaged by the developers of the software who have asked the pi store to host it for them.
Are you sure that is the case with all packages?
If so, I stand corrected.

Still makes me wonder who should be the one to decide to add a package to the store that has multiple authors (quite common for open source projects) or is a combination of projects from multiple sources by entirely different groups of people?
E.g. Open Arena, that is a combination of the ioquake3 engine released by i3d, some opengl es modifications by Broadcom, the OpenArena data files by the openarena team, and I think some tiny modifications suggested by folks on the forum here...

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Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:01 am

Max wrote:
ukscone wrote: They are not repackaging software themselves, they are hosting software packaged by the developers of the software who have asked the pi store to host it for them.
Are you sure that is the case with all packages?
If so, I stand corrected.

Still makes me wonder who should be the one to decide to add a package to the store that has multiple authors (quite common for open source projects) or is a combination of projects from multiple sources by entirely different groups of people?
E.g. Open Arena, that is a combination of the ioquake3 engine released by i3d, some opengl es modifications by Broadcom, the OpenArena data files by the openarena team, and I think some tiny modifications suggested by folks on the forum here...
if you actually go to the store (or the store web page) you'll see that it was davespice who is linked to the OpenArena posting. As he is the one who actually ported OpenArena to the Raspberry Pi he is allowed to request it is posted in the Pi Store as long as all other license requirements are met.

Max

Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:38 am

ukscone wrote: if you actually go to the store (or the store web page) you'll see that it was davespice who is linked to the OpenArena posting. As he is the one who actually ported OpenArena to the Raspberry Pi he is allowed to request it is posted in the Pi Store as long as all other license requirements are met.
Was first ported by me on June 18 last year: http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewt ... 3&p=102767
Based on the ioquake3 engine port which I think was done by Rob.

To make matters more complicated, we also have 6677 who also seems to claim credit: http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/3131

Still I doubt any of us four have any close ties to the openarena team...

And what if it had been a "port" that only required a recompile, instead of source changes?
Would it still be right (ethical, not legal) for the porter to decide?
Last edited by Max on Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:56 am

Max wrote:
ukscone wrote: if you actually go to the store (or the store web page) you'll see that it was davespice who is linked to the OpenArena posting. As he is the one who actually ported OpenArena to the Raspberry Pi he is allowed to request it is posted in the Pi Store as long as all other license requirements are met.
Was first ported by me on June 18 last year: http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewt ... 3&p=102767
Based on the ioquake3 engine port which I think was done by Rob.
I wasn't aware that you'd also ported it and i was only aware of davespice's port because he announced it around the time that the store was being beta tested and was on the front page here iirc. But the fact that you've also ported OpenArena doesn't change the fact that the admins of the Pi Store are not going around willy-nilly shoving any old thing into the store, the only things in the store are things that developers & porters have requested be in the store and have uploaded themselves.

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Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:49 pm

It's an intersting argument.
Lets say i have a piece of legally owned GPL software and
create binaries from the source. Now i want to distribute
it to people who don't want to compile from source (gratis),
and i decide that a hosting partner which uses personal data
is my solution of choice. If people want my binaries ,
they'll have to expose their data.

It was my effort to recompile it , and obviously it's up to me
how to distribute it. I just have to point to the source of it.
That should make people aware of their rights.
Isn't that already the case ?

ghans
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Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:33 pm

ghans wrote:It's an intersting argument.
Lets say i have a piece of legally owned GPL software and
create binaries from the source. Now i want to distribute
it to people who don't want to compile from source (gratis),
and i decide that a hosting partner which uses personal data
is my solution of choice. If people want my binaries ,
they'll have to expose their data.

It was my effort to recompile it , and obviously it's up to me
how to distribute it. I just have to point to the source of it.
That should make people aware of their rights.
Isn't that already the case ?

ghans
His argument (I believe and if i'm reading it incorrectly I apologise) is that the Foundation and/or IndieCity are going around trawling the internet for any nice software they happen to stumble across, grabbing it and then hiding the binaries behind a wall so the only way to get the software is via the Pi Store.

My argument is that the Foundation & IndieCity are not doing that. There is some foundation produced documentation but that is available elsewhere. There is nothing in the Pi Store that can't be obtained by other means. The Pi Store really only exists as a convenience.

Max

Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:18 pm

ghans wrote:It's an intersting argument.
Lets say i have a piece of legally owned GPL software and
create binaries from the source. Now i want to distribute
it to people who don't want to compile from source (gratis),
and i decide that a hosting partner which uses personal data
is my solution of choice. If people want my binaries ,
they'll have to expose their data.

It was my effort to recompile it , and obviously it's up to me
how to distribute it. I just have to point to the source of it.
That should make people aware of their rights.
Isn't that already the case ?
You can host downloads at a location that requires sign-up or even payment, and comply with the GPL.
That does by itself not conflict, although there are a couple caveats.

The terms the user has to accept, may not conflict with the GPL, e.g. it must not say you cannot redistribute the GPL app (source),
or suggest that all licensing rights you have to that app can be terminated, just for breaking a rule of theirs.
Another is that GPL v3 requires that when you use a designated place (e.g. website or store) to distribute the binaries, you must offer
equivalent access to the source, and the download link or instructions must be at the same location as those for the binaries.
Be aware that if you chose to just place a direct download link there that points to the website of the upstream project and they have downtime, or if they decide to remove the exact version of the source you used at some stage, it is not "their fault", but yours for not being in compliance.
If you can arrange fancy redundant download servers for the binaries, you could do the same for the source.
Also the source must include build scripts/instructions and since GPLv3 also installation instructions to reproduce the exact same binaries you created, and install them.
If it is an app that is normally launched from the store application, instead of a normal shortcut on the desktop that last requirement may also pose a slight issue as well.

Anyway, that's the legal side.
Was more aiming at the ethical one of submissions of software by others than the original author(s) to a location that may monetize personal information of a young audience. A practice that is not without controversy.
Cannot proof that that actually happens, but nobody ruled out the possibility, or explained why collecting personal information is so essential for a free download.

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Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:19 pm

Just to clear something up, IndieCity will not sell your details.

You can read the Privacy Policy which gives you the lowdown on what can be done with your information.
Community Manager - IndieCity

Max

Re: `Cannot Join if Under 13

Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:47 pm

DrPiD wrote: Just to clear something up, IndieCity will not sell your details.
Good.
So for what other purpose do you need the personal information, when processing a free download?
DrPiD wrote: You can read the Privacy Policy which gives you the lowdown on what can be done with your information.
That does not provide much reassurance, because -as mentioned before in another thread- the privacy policy is open-ended and allows future changes at any time without seeking the user's consent (notification does NOT equal consent).
Besides that the currently policy already allows the disclosure of personal information to prospective buyer of assets, and users can be considered an asset.

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