What do you think about decision X (aka a playing with fire thread)

[abishur]

Okay, so as the thread topic notes, this thread could be an easy way to create strife (please forgive me Liz!) but I think highly of the forum members even when we piss each other off and I think we can handle this. As a disclaimer: I am not a member of the Raspberry Pi Foundation. I am just a guy who helps out in the forums and does his best to be a parrot repeating what the r-pi team has told us Anything written in this thread that is not written by an official R-pi team member should be taken as conjecture/opinion.

I\'d like to ask 10 questions and get your thoughts about said question, don\'t respond to other people\'s questions (just a fair warning if I see a post with \"I disagree or @so-and-so, I will delete it), I just want your opinions and debating opinions will get pointless quick. These questions are things that seem to be able able to find their way into any given topic but I think their divisiveness is built around well meaning individuals making conjecture, but then people taking that conjecture as fact. I\'m hoping that if we can get the facts straight then we can take the oomph out of these issues.

Okay, here we go (and play nice guys )

1) What is the purpose of the Raspberry Pi?

2) How much experience do you think the Raspberry Pi Team has running a company on scale of 1 to 10 (With 1 being \"I think they\'re highly intelligent people, but have no experience running a business\" and 10 being \"They\'re the best around and nothings ever gonna keep them down)

3) On a scale of 1-5 how open source are you? (with 1 being \"I like Apple\'s mindset\" and 5 being \"I\'m such a die hard open source guy that I don\'t even buy socks without them coming with a full data sheet on every piece of equipment used from start to finish of the sock making process\") Feel free to give a one or two sentence reason behind your mindset but PLEASE don\'t respond to others it\'s only an opinion

4) In no more than 4 sentences how do you think Question 3 affects Question 1?

5) What do you think the relationship is between the Raspberry Pi Foundation and Broadcom?

6) Have you ever created your own custom bios (Or modified the bios at the code level)

7) Have you ever installed a custom bios (not custom drivers, custom bios)

8 ) What is your current understanding of the GPU issue? (seriously guys your thoughts only, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don\'t respond to others)

9) In no more than 4 sentences how do you think Question 8 affects question 1?

Here are my responses, they\'re just the facts ma\'am (except for the questions asking for an opinion and then that\'s my opinion )

1) The goal of the Raspberry Pi Team is stated on the \"About Us\" Page
[quote]
The Raspberry Pi Foundation is a UK registered charity (Registration Number 1129409) which exists to promote the study of computer science and related topics, especially at school level, and to put the fun back into learning computing.
[/quote]

2) I\'m going to go with 8. I base this of what little I know about one of the main parts of the team David Braben

3) I\'m a 3 (what a lame answer, I know!) I like open source, I like its concept, I like that people can make a living off it because their product is that good, I like the price tag that comes with it. But I also understand a corporation\'s stand point for wanting to protect their investment it really sucks when you sink several hundred million in to R&D and then some bum off the street takes what you did and makes a cheap clone, not only am I the revenue of my own product but I\'m also out the cost of R&D.

4) I think that the more open a product is the better it will be at encouraging children to learn. That said, I think that a child could learn programming just as easily on the draconian closed sourced Macintosh. If the main goal of a project is to encourage knowledge then ultimately it won\'t matter if it\'s open or closed sourced, what will matter is the content, and as long as the content encourages knowledge then it could come with a pad lock and still meet the goal.

5) This is one of those misunderstood topics. The Raspberry Pi Foundation has been very clear and upfront with this issue, but it\'s still misunderstood for some reason. The relationship between Raspberry Pi and Broadcom and that of a vendor (Broadcom) and a client (Raspberry PI). The Raspberry Pi Foundation is NOT some covert arm of broadcom, or a charity branch, or a subsidiary. Yes, some of the people in Raspberry Pi also work for Broadcom (and fortunately for all of us Broadcom has allowed the Raspberry Pi team to get a bulk price discount at a lower order volume than usual... and if Broadcom is smart they\'ll write off the difference as a charitable donation, but that\'s just my personal opinion), but that is an individual choosing to spend their free time to work on the Raspberry Pi, not the broadcom company working on the Raspberry Pi.

6 and 7) I have not ever modified the bios at the code level or installed a custom bios

8 ) I really almost wish the r-pi team hadn\'t mentioned this, but they are so open and upfront with us that they did. First let\'s get the main falsehood out of the way. You will still be able to tweak GPU performance, you\'ll do it the way you always have with OpenGL (or your video API of choice that the board supports).

There\'s a reason I asked 6 and 7 first. The little GPU blob that you do not have access to is a lot like the bios of a motherboard. You don\'t have access to the BIOS source code (in most cases), but you also don\'t ever care about it, it doesn\'t reduce functionality, it doesn\'t prevent you from doing all sorts of cool things or using the board in your own commercial application. In fact, there\'s a lot of people who don\'t even change any of the default settings in their bios at all.

Or let\'s bump it up a notch, let\'s compare it to driver, how many of us tweak the video card driver directly? I use a customer driver that someone else made for my video card once. It was horrible and I put the manufacture\'s back on there and tweaked it via an API.

9) From an adult view, I can see the benefit of complete openness in a device that we want to mod into out projects. But from a guy who likes the aims of the foundations I recognize the fact that it doesn\'t matter. Almost all graphics tweaking is done at an API level and that\'s where they should focus if they want to learn about graphics. Alternatively, the skills they learn from programming languages in general will be directly applicable if they choose to get a job messing with video devices later on in life. (whew kept it to four sentences!)

10) Bonus Question: Is any of this new knowledge for you, and if so does it change your opinion on any issue?

Thanks for reading guys, I hope this thread gets to be as much fun for all of us as I expect it to be. Remember play nice and just post your own thoughts, not responses to others

[Bacan]

Masters Thesis research time.

I\'ll have to answer these off-line, then rePost.

[@Storris]

1. \"About\"

2. No idea.

3. 3, I like the idea behind open source, but I\'m also willing to pay a price for functionality.

4. For me? Not at all.
I like the idea. I like the product. And as much as I don\'t know them, I like the people involved.
For you or #Rpi? Don\'t know, don\'t really care.

5. As you stated, Vendor/Client.

6. No.

7. Does my phone count? HTC HD2 running WinPhone7.5 (Mango)

8. An individual is crowing about having root access to a widely distributed, successful, proprietary product and that will allow him (no matter his intentions) to compromise the security of that product. For me, not happening. If you buy a new Ford, you are not entitled to the keys for every other Ford that is bought.

9. Again, not at all. You do what you can with what you\'ve got. If you\'re not happy with the terms of the contract you initiate by making a purchase, then don\'t make the purchase.

For my money, #Rpi is doing a brilliant job with brilliant intentions, thumbs up to you all. Broadcom are doing very well for themselves also. Congrats to them.

[stuporhero]

1. The purpose of the RaspberryPi platform is to provide a cheap, reliable platform for education purposes. The foundation is there to promote the study of computer science.

2. I\'m going to pick an 8 for this, though this has been at least an academic process for years, selling something this cheap in the middle of a recession (where schools etc, are suffering government cuts) I think it\'s a master stroke!

3. 3.875. I use what works first, then Linux where possible!

4. To be honest the foundation needs to make these as cheap and accessible as possible so Linux is an obvious decision opposed to Windows fees. I think however important decisions need to be made so that the Pi is specific on what programming languages are the primary languages on the system. (Linux has so many you can suffer indecision!) and standardising this is a must.

5. I think the relationship is professional and friendly, though more professional.

6. I\'ve butchered a BIOS with BIOS vendor supplied editors... (Actual Vendor tools, not the BIOS preference screen, I revealed overclocking options in the BIOS for an AMD K2-350!)?

7. Yes

8. The GPU blob is a non-free blob, meaning that we can only use the GPU the way Broadcom wants us to. However I don\'t see that being much of a problem as the GPU is primarily (and usable) for graphics and doesn\'t seem that much different to enabling the nVidia driver in your standard desktop distribution. In performance cases it can be preferable (i.e. Gaming, VDPAU).

9. I don\'t think 8 affects 1 at all, as the blob does what it says on the tin.

10. No new knowledge, would like to add my experiences in computing are in here, and to remind everyone this is about teaching people to program, and not a flame-war on what platform should be used and why one is better than the other, etc. etc.

[tufty]

[quote]1) What is the purpose of the Raspberry Pi?[/quote]
Teaching kids to program. Might also be useful for teaching teachers (and other adults) to program.
[quote]2) How much experience do you think the Raspberry Pi Team has running a company on scale of 1 to 10[/quote]
Enough that they shouldn\'t go bust next week. 7-8, probably.
[quote]3) On a scale of 1-5 how open source are you?[/quote]
I like Apple\'s mindset. But then OSX has an open source kernel
I don\'t buy RMS\'s line, but I can appreciate it. I don\'t use windows because I think it\'s worthless junk, not because of the openness or otherwise of its sekrit sause. I hit both ends of your spectrum.
[quote]4) In no more than 4 sentences how do you think Question 3 affects Question 1?[/quote]
Not at all.
[quote]5) What do you think the relationship is between the Raspberry Pi Foundation and Broadcom?[/quote]
Healthy
[quote]6) Have you ever created your own custom bios (Or modified the bios at the code level)[/quote]
BIOS is PC terminology. Yes, I\'ve written embedded firmware. More times than I care to think of.
[quote]7) Have you ever installed a custom bios (not custom drivers, custom bios)[/quote]
Yes, as long as you expand bios to mean \"firmware\". And not just on PCs either. I\'ve hacked, reverse-engineered, rewritten and flashed the firmware on peripherals, too.
[quote]8 ) What is your current understanding of the GPU issue?[/quote]
It\'s Firmware. Complex firmware, and the open or closed source nature of it is 100% irrelevant to 99.99% of the people here. Of the 0.01% who think it\'s relevant to them, 99.99% of them are wrong.
[quote]9) In no more than 4 sentences how do you think Question 8 affects question 1?[/quote]
Not in the slightest.
[quote]10) Bonus Question: Is any of this new knowledge for you, and if so does it change your opinion on any issue?
[/quote]
No, and no.

Simon

[Luny]

1) To make computers fun and give kids something cheap to programme and learn with. A modern micro?

2) So far about a 7, this is only as I\'ve not bought anything from them nor had to use their customer care. If that all works out it could go up

3) I\'m about a 7. I love it, use it even write stuff using it. But i\'m getting lazy in my old age and will use stuff out of the \'box\' rather than compile if I can. But the whole idea of open source is lovely. Always willing to give money for something well written and makes my life easier. but then open doesn\'t always have to mean free (ok ok, this makes arguments, but I safe here) Some certain corperations are acting nastily and greedily in their old age though.

4) Well, what would be the point of very cheap hardware if you cannot run free / cheap software on it? Open source has given free software to the world.

5) <Shrug> One of those things.

6) I\'ve worked in the embedded world and have been involved in the embedded equivalent of BIOS. I\'ve never hacked around with PC type BIOS though.

7) In the embedded world, yes.

8) Getting down to the hardware is fun, but not necessary. With fast hardware and API is good enough.

9) I can be seen as a restriction and goes a little against the idea. But hey, in the old days, you accepted what you got when you bought hardware, and worked around it

10) I\'m happy.

[scep]

Just to save everyone answering question 2: go to the Charity Commission site and check out the list of Trustees. That\'s right, it\'s all the way up to 11

[Jongoleur]

1. To give its user the chance to learn something about computers, other than using a few \"productivity\" packages.

2. God knows, some will have a lot more business experience than others - they seem to be doing ok at the moment. If you want a number, say 7.

3. About 3, verging on 4 in some cases.

4. Not a lot.

5. I don\'t know, I\'m not a member of the Foundation. I hope its hands-off benevolent.

6. No.

7. No.

8. Its a firmware blob, we can\'t do anything about that. It\'ll be good if there is a stable API for those who like to tinker.

9. Not a lot. There seems to be some confusion about \"student\" and \"learn about computers\" in some peoples minds, they seem to think its for undergraduate level stuff.

10. I\'m pretty happy - no changes!

[Burngate]

1) Kids first, 3rd world second, nerds third, me last!
2) I have no knowledge of anyone above about 2, but they seem to be well above that. And flying higher all the time.
3) Since I can\'t see how anyone can make money out of open source, I don\'t understand how it can exist. But I like it, it helps me learn, and lets me do my own weird thing, so I\'m 3
4) a) Part of learning is pulling things apart to see what\'s inside.
b) If you can\'t pull it apart, you can\'t easily misuse it.
c) If they can\'t misuse it, kids\'ll get bored.
d) Education is boring. But learning\'s fun.
5) If I was a Broadcom shareholder and I found out they were spending time / effort / resources on something like this instead of giving me money ... so don\'t tell the shareholders!
So if they\'re willing to let the foundation have what they\'ve already given them please can we give them three cheers.
6) no 7) no
8 ) GPU: closed, boring. Kernel: more interesting. Where the two intersect: grey area. That said, it\'d be nice to know what and how a generic GPU did. Learning how a computer works is made easier by having a relatively simple, open, architecture like the Arm. How that is supported by the GPU is part of that.
9) a) All information is useful
b) Other than that, I ain\'t a teacher, so no useful comment
10) yes & no

[johnbeetem]

1) What is the purpose of the Raspberry Pi?

Get students interested in programming computers instead of just using them as media devices and office equipment, by providing a low-cost but highly-capable hardware platform which is cheap enough that students can have their own computers instead of having to share family and/or school computers. By having their own computers, they can feel free to experiment since the penalty for screwing up the computer is small. Above all, make programming fun so that it is something students want to do instead of it being yet another chore.

2) How much experience do you think the Raspberry Pi Team has running a company on scale of 1 to 10 (With 1 being \"I think they\'re highly intelligent people, but have no experience running a business\" and 10 being \"They\'re the best around and nothings ever gonna keep them down)

I don\'t know the RasPi team well enough to make a judgement. Besides, RasPi is a charity, not a business, so the goals are completely different. A business exists primarily to make money. A charity exists solely to realize its goals. As far as running a charity, the spirit is there in abundance and experience will follow.

3) On a scale of 1-5 how open source are you? (with 1 being \"I like Apple\'s mindset\" and 5 being \"I\'m such a die hard open source guy that I don\'t even buy socks without them coming with a full data sheet on every piece of equipment used from start to finish of the sock making process\") Feel free to give a one or two sentence reason behind your mindset but PLEASE don\'t respond to others it\'s only an opinion.

I am a pragmatic idealist: I prefer computers I buy to be as open source as possible, but life is full of compromises and I do have computer-based equipment that I use as an appliance which is not open source, so give me a 4. I do believe that if a project or product advertises itself as \"open source\", it had better be totally open source or else it should call itself \"mostly open source\", with a clear list of what isn\'t.

4) In no more than 4 sentences how do you think Question 3 affects Question 1?

My understanding is that RasPi wants students to own their own computers, and
you do not really own a computer if key information for using it is withheld -- in that case you own (for example) a media appliance, or a virtual computer, not a general-purpose computer. My understanding is that RasPi wants students to have fun with their computers, and telling them that \"no, you cannot do that extremely fun thing you want to with RasPi because we won\'t give you the information you need to do it\" is not fun. Telling a precocious, inventive, and curious student that \"oh, you don\'t need to know about that\" is not a great way to encourage creativity.

5) What do you think the relationship is between the Raspberry Pi Foundation and Broadcom?

Broadcom supplies the SoC to RasPi at very low cost for the quantities involved and there are a number of Broadcom employees donating time to RasPi. We are very grateful for both of these.

6) Have you ever created your own custom bios (Or modified the bios at the code level)

Yes, mostly in embedded products with publicly-available documentation. For some peripherals, I had to use confidential documents.

7) Have you ever installed a custom bios (not custom drivers, custom bios)

Yes, in embedded products.

8 ) What is your current understanding of the GPU issue? (seriously guys your thoughts only, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don\'t respond to others)

As with all SoC\'s I\'ve come across, Broadcom does not provide details of the GPU. There have been various theories advanced about why this is the case, including not wanting competitors to copy trade secrets, not wanting to expose technology that might attract an unjustified-but-still-hideously-expensive patent infringement lawsuit in USA litigation hell, not wanting to provide customer support, poor quality documentation that would be too expensive to bring up to general publication level, and \"its just company policy\".

9) In no more than 4 sentences how do you think Question 8 affects question 1?

It\'s frustrating for a clever, precocious student to see this amazing graphics and video engine at work and only be able to access it virtually. It\'s like having a marvelous CPU but you\'re only able to program it in BASIC: \"It\'s for your own good, Johnny -- ASM is for grown-ups\" (pats Johnny on the head). Given the goals (as I preceive them) for RasPi, it\'s a disappointment. Perhaps it\'s good to teach disappointment at an early age so that kids learn that life is more like a Pinter play than Mary Poppins.

10) Bonus Question: Is any of this new knowledge for you, and if so does it change your opinion on any issue?

I didn\'t know whether abishur had done any BIOS-level or device-level programming himself, so I have a better understanding of his perspective. I\'ve done a lot, especially in embedded applications where there is little or no operating system between me and the bare metal. I find it exhilarating. So I appreciate the value of a good SoC data book. So no opinion change here.

[Svartalf]

1) To provide an educational computer platform on a par with the Beeb while using modern hardware and software, for the purposes of furthering Computer Science education.

2) Somewhere between an 8 and an 9 - I\'ve been down the road they\'re going down and they\'re not making much of any mistakes so far on their execution of the stated goal (as best as I can see so far...).

3) 4. I am loathe to use stuff without source. Unlike many, I can actually use most technical data and code without much help in most cases. However, I\'ve been in the industry for a long time- I know that sometimes that\'s just unrealistic.

4) It can affect it at deeper levels of education- but at most levels, it\'s only more of an annoyance. Especially if the magic blobs in this case are in a state that will be unlikely to cause the unit to cease to work.

5) There are employees of Broadcom as trustees and volunteers. However, that\'s where the relationship that direction largely ends. The Foundation is it\'s own entity that was set up as a charity and could have just as easily went to TI, Samsung, or Qualcomm for their SoC, etc.

6) Yes.

7) Yes.

8 ) Heh... GPU\'s closed, like pretty much every other embedded SoC GPU right at the moment. A bit different than some of the others as there\'s a potential to have the userland component opened, allowing OSes other than Linux to get accelerated graphics. It\'d be nice to have the GPU firmware blob opened, but not required here. Not to mention that it\'s damned complicated doing GPU drivers however they\'re framed in. (As I mentioned in another thread...there IS a vendor that\'s in a position if you\'d ask their customers to make it an issue...but until you do, nothing\'s going to happen, even with this GPU...)

9) As with question 4, it\'s the same answer- except that it\'d be almost at the deepest levels of Computer Science that it might impact things.

10) Nope. Nothing new here for me- and no changes in intent on my end for the time being. I\'d love to have it opened so we can help Broadcom do other things with the Videocore that they\'d not anticipated, but I can understand their position here. I\'m surprised that this keeps coming up, time and time again, actually.

[Wooloomooloo]

1) Getting a new generation interested in computing, preferably on a more intimate level than currently observed.

2) No point in me guessing since I don\'t know any of the people involved directly (or know much about MBA things). If I would HAVE to guess, I\'s pick somewhere near average, possibly a bit below (remember OLPC? Yeah, that went well...). 4-5?

3) About 4.5, OS nazi. Just about enough room left to allow a proprietary binary when there\'s no way around it and the ends justify it. Reasons? Closed source never gets it right and can never be bothered to fix it. I can\'t fix most OS stuff either (me dum-dum - I can has gum-gum?), but at least it\'s my fault. Also, I don\'t believe in imaginary property.

4) I guess one can indeed learn to code in a specific, closed environment too, and the concepts are pretty much universal after all. But the specifics are not, and where\'s the point in learning to drive a single type of car (be it even a Bugatti Veyron) if one could learn to drive something that can both go to space (and can be fixed there), under the sea, and drive offroad instead?

5) As you said, lucky customer vs. benevolent vendor. Nothing special to see here.

6) Does unpacking and repacking it with my own custom logo count (oh no, not using the manufacturer\'s GUI tool...)? Or the same thing, with my video card\'s BIOS, to change the default boot-time TV-out behaviour? On the other hand I DID alter my Speccy\'s BASIC indeed. And the bootloader TI provided for its Stellaris micros. And back in the day, animating a swirling pseudo-3D \"wormhole\" simply by rotating the palette of the VGA card, without touching a single pixel in the video RAM was also infinitely cool. It was the only thing that made all that learning worth it.

7) I think the previous one answers that. But yeah, reflashed BIOS whenever an update seemed warranted, or the BIOS went blank but could be reflashed with an identical one, by swapping them \"hot\". Also, I used to know the CMOS layout by byte / bit, including how to zap its checksum with a line of assembly. Good times...

8) I\'d much, much rather prefer an OS version, but things being as they are, I\'m cool with it. In this day and age, most people will indeed not care to tweak it. Not right away anyway. Fun can be had with RasPi in other ways too, and learning to code does not begin there.

9) I just told you. I absolutely think _some_ people _would_ definitely want to tinker with it at some point, but it\'s not the end of the world if they can\'t. If _all_ the hardware were walled up behind APIs however, I wouldn\'t even be interested (the kids may well still be though).

10) Not really, this was pretty much my understanding all along (or possibly I\'m still failing to understand it ).

EDIT: Sorry, for some reason I was left with the impression that 3) also went up to 10 - since it does not, corrected 9 to 4.5...

[hippy]

1 ) Purpose - To teach programming ( primarily to kids )
2 ) Company experience - 4
3 ) Open source ethos - 2
4 ) Affect of (3) on purpose - Very little
5 ) Relationship with Broadcom - As it should be
6 ) Created custom BIOS - No
7 ) Installed custom BIOS - No
8 ) GPU - I think I completely understand the issues.
9 ) Affect of (8) on purpose - Insignificant

[psergiu]

1) To give us a $25(+VAT) computer. And a $35 one.

2) I hope they\'re 10, i figure 8 as they spend too much time reading stupid posts like this one on the forums and not taking care of the business

3) 1,2,3,4 and 5. I use Apple hardware, i admin a Mac-user forum and I wrote a OS X book. At work i deal with commerical Unix boxes and i install GNU software on them. I was amongst the 1st ones in my country to install & use Linux and I complained to the car dealer that my car\'s manual does not include the full schematics. The computer i\'m using right now it\'s a Mac running OS X. The PC next to it is running pure Debian without non-free & contrib. Quotting Montgommery Scott, Star Trek V: \"The right tool for the right job!\"

4) It does not. I still want to buy my RPi to do open & closed source stuff with it.

5) The fact that some of the people from the RPi team have low-level knowledge of the APU it\'s a very good thing - it means our \"toy\" will be as optimized and efficient as possible. If this also means they get lower prices - that\'s even better. Imagine if they used the chips from another vendor and as a result the RPi had only 64Mb RAM and only HDMI pads on the board as including the connector would have rised the price over 25$.

6) Custom changes & add-ons to Speccy ROM & custom logos on PC Bioses.

7) Yep, Several times a day even. My Speccy clone had 16kb of RAM instead of the ROM and you could load your own image from tape (using a 4K Mini-BASIC ROM)

8 ) You can use a 2D frammebuffer, h264 encoding/decoding and OpenGL for very fast 3D graphics, there are talks with BroadCom to release more docs/source and if enough RPis will reach enough bored students, the binary blob will be reverse engineered in a couple of months.

9) Who cares ? - gimme my $25 computer NAO !!! Whoever feels offended by the GPU issue can go fork() itself and buy a RMS-approoved Lemote Yeeloong notebook. And watch 1080p video at 0.3FPS

10) Nope. I still want to get my $25 toy. Are they ready yet ?

[na1pir]

1. I think purpose of this device is in seeing computer science as something fun, for regular folks and kids not just geeks.
2. 7
3. 5
4. Open source is about sharing knowledge and my opinion is that knowledge itself should be free(as beer and as speech). RPi is tool for inventing and sharing this kind of information and inspiring people to crate code and invent devices which should be free (as speech).
5. part supplier - designer
6. not for x86 but I did create something similar in vhdl for other architectures... Create costumer firmware for router... write driver/firmware for partly closed device...
7. yes
8. well I cant do anything about it and I understand why it is closed, and don\'t care much if it will work properly... and give me possibility to use it properly.
9. well powerfull gpu can be lots of fun=)
10. well I mostly don\'t care about what others thin about certain things. Facts does count allot.

[bradburts]

1) Promote computing - esp. to get Kids off their mobile and having proper fun.

2) 0, you\'re a charity and doing a good job at not making money.

3) 4.0
As a consumer I like the price of open. As a developer I also like the opportunities it enables. Typing on Windows 7 though. Would not like to see computers become closed architectures.

4) Closed would tends to restrict the foundation\'s goals - to promote computer science which would include the hardware, the BIOS and the OS. Extent depends on what has been closed of course and it is hobson\'s choice anyway.

5) Customer / supplier.

6) Yes, embedded BIOS, BSP etc using hardware datasheets. Sometimes hex hacks using advice or guesses.

7) Yes, usually \'the application\' after forgetting to swap the jumper

8 ) The GPU is proprietry, source & details are unlikely to be made available. The video will work, because it has too. Some functionallity may never be available though, e.g. DSP. Not sure what else is in the GPU, no datasheet.

9) It removes a potential source of interest/inspiration, how many would be inspired to review the GPU boot sequence, to do some DSP processing or thrash the video core (possibly melting the chip in the process) I don\'t know (OC communities are quite vibrant though). But they won\'t be able to DSP and only OC by official means. The GPU is a \'heated debate\' but pin details is another area, they teach 14 year olds systems & control, surface mount, coding etc at my school.

10) Do you mean people\'s answers?
I have learnt that others share the view that learning should not be boxed. Its can be so hard to get any interest. Mind you if you tell a child that something is off limits, life will find a way...

[jackb]

1)
It\'s supposed to be a cheap device that offers what the average hobbyist (read : tinkerer, programmer) wants for a very low price, it basically fills the gap between a msp430 and a beagleboard that you previously had to fill with abused routers and other devices.

2)
I guess a solid 8 would be about right, with david braben of elite fame and people who work for broadcom there is not that much that could go wrong.

3)
A 4 - I use windows to work, but i depend on the openness of linux to tinker.

4)
Without open source there would be no pi - image how many people would buy a pi running windows ce, and then imagine how many people would buy one after someone would manage to port linux to it (yes, the wince source code is available, but that does not count as open source)

5)
The rpi foundation is a customer who benefits from that fact that some of the rpi guys work for broadcom, but that\'s it.

6)
\"bios\"... no, but a bootloader, yes.

7)
As above, not a bios but a bootloader.

8)
Since the ARM1176JZF-S core lacks NEON instructions the fact that there is just this big binary blob makes it impossible to abuse the gpu as a dsp, and there is no opencl. In the end the issue is not that the gpu drivers are not open source, it\'s the fact that there is this videocore iv with all this dsp awesomeness and there is no way to use it, this applies to the video encoding functions, too. As far as actual applications are concerned, think \"audio\" processing (funcube dongle pro anyone ?) or attaching a cheap usb webcam to the pi.

9)
Hard to tell - you can not market it as completely open source which is not really a problem, everyone who wants to do a bit of dsp might skip it, adn there is the feeling that the SoC offers more than you are allowed to do.

10) No.

[riffraff]

1) a) Provide tabula rasa approach to introducing progamming to students. Let\'s don\'t say \"re-introduce\" because this has never really been done in this manner, neither should we say \"introducing programming into schools\", because reality may dicatate otherwise. b) To accquaint students with the \"nuts & bolts\" of emerging technology which, ironically, they use daily, but not experimentally. c) Be honest here: Put the UK (and maybe the US) back firmly in the field of tech-builders and not merely tech-users.

2) 6-7. I applaud the efforts. Progress has been astounding, but it\'s just the hardware. They have a long road ahead of them to achieve their intended goals, and the devil is always in the details.

3) 4. I won\'t say 5 because I believe a manufacturer has the right to protect their proprietary technology.

4) Primary objective is to provide an open programming environment, not an open engineering environment. Open OS sources, cursory hardware specs and adequate API\'s are beyond sufficient to fulfill that objective.

5) A supplier, benevolent, but simply a supplier. Any benefit derived would be a victory for ARM architecture in general, not specifically Broadcom. Any number of devices could have worked, it\'s just that the BCM2835 has everything on one chip.

6 & 7) I\'ve patched BIOS and system ROMS, That was one of my first projects with early Radio Shack computers, and a critical necessity with the buggy 1st gen PC-XT clones. I built my own low cost EPROM burner and sold a kit for others to do the same.

8) GPU innards are a mystery - OMG what\'s the BFD? It\'s foolish to assume that they would or should provide anything other than rudimentary specs and OpenGL. The only instance where something like this was an issue, I recall, was the Win SDK scandal years ago where MS was accused of withholding goodies to give their app division an edge over 3rd party developers. No danger of that here, I can\'t see BC sandbagging their API, it would only make their product look bad.

9) While access to GPU data is cool to a hobbyist or OEM developer, it has no bearing on the goals of the Foundation. Reality check in order here: if you train lots of good little programmers, they will find lots of nice paying jobs where they are expected to create within the confines of the software model they are given for the target hardware.

10) Nothing new here. I just wanna get my hands on a board, see what I can get running on it, and see if I can contribute something to the effort.

[daveg]

1) Low cost platform to \"recharge\" the interest in computers and programming that has been missing for many years

2) 8-10, Some of the trustees are already running successful businesses so I\'m pretty sure they know what they are doing

3) 4, I like the concept but on the other hand use closed source software everyday too. I\'m a realist, not everything can be open source.

4) Not much really, you can learn to program with or without an open GPU \"BIOS\" (or blob). If you want to program at that level I think you are probably beyond the level of who the R-Pi is aimed at.

5) Obviously Eben works for Broadcom, without that relationship the use of the BCM2835 probably wouldn\'t be possible due to the high volume minimum quantities.

6) No, a little beyond me. Don\'t want to \"brick\" my MB/GFX Card etc etc

7) yes, hacked motherboard bios with newer RAID controller FW

8) Well, I don\'t really think there is an issue TBH. The \"GPU issue\" is what it is. Broadcom aren\'t doing anything wrong. They will have spent inordinate amounts of money developing the chip. Why would they want to give away information which their competitors could use?

9) Not at all.
The chip ISN\'T designed to be in a low cost educational tool with high multimedia performance, it\'s designed to be in a mobile phone (or similar low power device). The fact that it can be use in the R-Pi is a bonus, people seem to be forgetting where the chip is designed to be used. The manufacturer has no obligation to provide open source X Y or Z.
If people want a highly capable totally open source multimedia platform, maybe they need to look elsewhere (and dig significantly deeper in their pockets) or develop one themselves.

10) No, I\'ve read it before and seen it in the videos, it changes nothing. The R-Pi is designed as an educational tool but fortunately is it powerful enough for a hobbyist to use for other purposes, I\'m under no illusion that I\'m lucky to be able to use it outside of its initial design brief

Sorry if my views don\'t align with other members, but we are entitled to our own opinions

[Chris Tyler]

1) What is the purpose of the Raspberry Pi?

To provoke interest in CS and IT, and more generally, in problem solving and engineering and technology. (And this in the light of the successful experiments with the early micros in the late 70\'s and 80\'s.) The intended audience is young people, but the more interest provoked among people of all ages, the better

2) How much experience do you think the Raspberry Pi Team has running a company on scale of 1 to 10 (With 1 being \"I think they\'re highly intelligent people, but have no experience running a business\" and 10 being \"They\'re the best around and nothings ever gonna keep them down\")

~8, give or take

3) On a scale of 1-5 how open source are you? (with 1 being \"I like Apple\'s mindset\" and 5 being \"I\'m such a die hard open source guy that I don\'t even buy socks without them coming with a full data sheet on every piece of equipment used from start to finish of the sock making process\") Feel free to give a one or two sentence reason behind your mindset but PLEASE don\'t respond to others it\'s only an opinion

4.5 - Rabidly open source, but not quite so much that I won\'t run a device with a download-to-the-device firmware blob.

4) In no more than 4 sentences how do you think Question 3 affects Question 1?

I think that (a) open source is critical to the success of this project and (b) open source (actually, its predecessors, \"homebrew software traded at tape and floppy meets\", \"Public Domain software collections\", and \"stuff published in magazines and typed in\") played a critical role in the previous era on which this experiment is based.

5) What do you think the relationship is between the Raspberry Pi Foundation and Broadcom?

Broadcom is the dayjob employer of some of the RPF staff, built the alpha boards, is the chip supplier for the SOC, and is the IP supplier for the drivers, GPU code, and proprietary software bits in this project.

6) Have you ever created your own custom bios (Or modified the bios at the code level)

BIOS on a PC? No.

Boot ROMs for other devices, like custom digital protocol converters? Yes - wrote from scratch and burned into UV-EPROMs.

7) Have you ever installed a custom bios (not custom drivers, custom bios)

Yes (again, not in a PC context).

8 ) What is your current understanding of the GPU issue? (seriously guys your thoughts only, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don\'t respond to others)

The GPU side is proprietary and will probably remain so. The ARM kernel piece is open source, as required by the kernel license (GPL). The ARM userspace piece is closed-source but will hopefully be open-sourced in due course.

9) In no more than 4 sentences how do you think Question 8 affects question 1?

If we can provide, either at the time of first board release or shortly thereafter, standard interfaces to all of the important capabilities of the GPU side, and just lob stuff over the wall using those interfaces (ALSA, X11, OpenGL, gstreamer), then the proprietary nature of the GPU and the binary blobs that run over there is an insignificant issue for most users (save, perhaps, RMS and five other people).

If, on the other hand, the only way to access those features is through proprietary apps or non-standard interfaces on the ARM side, then we should anticipate a torches-and-pitchfork mob in the street.

[Michael]

Like abishur, I am a forum moderator and donate some of my free time to the project. I am a parrot for, not an employee of the Foundation. Nethertheless, here are my own answers:

[quote]Quote from abishur on December 5, 2011, 15:11
1) What is the purpose of the Raspberry Pi?[/quote]

It solves at least two of the ten key problems that Educators have identified as a blocking problem for being able to effectively teach programming, computer science and software engineering within the education system: the expense and maintainability of traditional computers when used for teaching.

See http://www.raspberrypi.org/sample-page and http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum?mingle ... ic&t=70.27

[quote]2) How much experience do you think the Raspberry Pi Team has running a company on scale of 1 to 10[/quote]

At least four members of the core team have held key positions in previous start-ups. Of course, there are some differences when running a charity and it was interesting listening to Eben talk about some of the differences last night.

[quote]3) On a scale of 1-5 how open source are you? (with 1 being \"I like Apple\'s mindset\" and 5 being \"I\'m such a die hard open source guy that I don\'t even buy socks without them coming with a full data sheet on every piece of equipment used from start to finish of the sock making process\") Feel free to give a one or two sentence reason behind your mindset[/quote]

I\'m not sure how to answer that - on the one hand, I\'ve previously run my own consultancy advising large organisations on how to do Open Source and collaborative software development, and participated in and contributed source code to several communities over the years; on the other hand I\'ve always been pragmatic: businesses only contribute to Open Source projects when it is in their interest.

[quote]4) In no more than 4 sentences how do you think Question 3 affects Question 1?[/quote]

I think the two questions are loosely coupled.

Software R&D can be a significant part of the overall cost of a solution. By leveraging Open Source software (whether as a business or as a charity; whether as a supplier or an end user), this cost can be reduced or minimised. It makes sense for the Foundation to rely on Open Source to provide much of the software.

[quote]5) What do you think the relationship is between the Raspberry Pi Foundation and Broadcom?[/quote]

Broadcom manufacture the SoC at the heart of the Raspberry Pi. They are a supplier. I believe they also sponsored the alpha boards in some way. They are also Eben\'s employer and several other Broadcom employees are donating their free time to the Raspberry Pi project.

I think people make the assumption that there is a stronger link between Broadcom and Raspberry Pi in part because a number of similar projects (eg Texas Instruments vs beagleboard.org; Marvell vs SheevaPlug) are built on a different business model and people just assume that Raspberry Pi is Broadcom\'s attempt to build a community around their products.

[quote]6) Have you ever created your own custom [bootloader] (Or modified the [bootloader] at the code level)[/quote]

Yes, but not in any terribly exciting or significant way.

[quote]7) Have you ever installed a custom [bootloader] (not custom drivers, custom [bootloader])[/quote]

Yes

[quote]8 ) What is your current understanding of the GPU issue?[/quote]

I\'m frankly bored by the discussion. (lack of) a standard libgles implementation and OpenCL support is more important to me than how much of the GPU implementation is exposed.

[quote]9) In no more than 4 sentences how do you think Question 8 affects question 1?[/quote]

A non-standard libgles library makes porting software to the platform slightly harder than it otherwise would be.

[Arreladd]

1. I cannot state it better than you did originally.

2. By the way that some of the Team gives updates on the front and also aknowledges forum posts I would say about 8. and FYI I would give Dell about a 4

3. I would say I am about a 4 on the how open source I am. I like the freedom it allows and the knowledge that I can get from it.

4. I think that because I am open source oriented it makes draws me more to not only the intended purpose but also to the fact that after the learning part is covered the owners have more freedom to adapt it for other purpuses as well.

5. I couldn\'t really tell you that. I can only speculate that it is a business relationiship for all involved.

6. Back in the day I had to modify bios in order to get some computer parts to communicate with the computer. Granted I did have help in doing so.

7. I would refer back to question #6 and say Yes LOL

8. I understand that at the beginning we were told we could tweak the GPU performance but then were told that we couldn\'t. Like all projects things change as new information is accuired. Honestly just like most people who thought the RasPi was going to be the size of a usb thumb drive, If they don\'t read everything or if they are hung up on one detail I don\'t think they are looking at it in the way it was intended.

9. Just because we could not tweak the GPU (given enough time we can) not being able to do some things will not affect the intended purpose of the RasPi.

Bonus Question

10. None of the information that I have read from the initial post is new information and it Does not change my opinion on any issues because I started out looking at the RasPi as what it was intended for Learing, Entertainment, and Experimentation. What I have learned from reading the Forums is invaluable not only to this project but to other projects I have.

[Davespice]

[quote]1) What is the purpose of the Raspberry Pi?[/quote]
It’s main goal is to prevent a possible future where there are not enough programmers available for industry. Being aimed at starting children programming when they are young should, in time, reverse the trend in the declining numbers of computer science graduates.
[quote]2) How much experience do you think the Raspberry Pi Team has running a company on scale of 1 to 10[/quote]
Well you’ve got David Braben who’s been running Frontier since the 80’s. Jack Lang who runs Artimi which is a well established Wireless band chip manufacturer. Several Cambridge University professors and Broadcom are on board. So I don’t think anyone can call the competency of running the company into question. So 10.
[quote]3) On a scale of 1-5 how open source are you?[/quote]
Me personally? Zero. Although I would like to collaborate on some projects one day. I work for a boutique software development company and we basically develop software for people under contract for money. That is how our business works. I do have a private project too, but that is currently not open source either. It is a free application anyway and I am planning to make the source public in time.
[quote]4) In no more than 4 sentences how do you think Question 3 affects Question 1?[/quote]
Maybe it will loosen the strangle-hold Microsoft has on IT in the education industry?
[quote]5) What do you think the relationship is between the Raspberry Pi Foundation and Broadcom?[/quote]
They would have a supplier to customer relationship I would imagine. Although Broadcom may perhaps grant the foundation certain favours for the greater good since they are a charity. I would say it is strictly business like otherwise.
[quote]6) Have you ever created your own custom bios (Or modified the bios at the code level)[/quote]
I have never made my own bios, but I have written some assembly before to kill the cmos where I’ve had a machine with a bios password.
[quote]7) Have you ever installed a custom bios (not custom drivers, custom bios)[/quote]
No.
[quote]8 ) What is your current understanding of the GPU issue?[/quote]
It’s not actually an issue for me. Some people are not happy with it because it is not strictly open source hardware. It is a proprietary Broadcom GPU which sort of makes you beholden to Broadcom. This is a very esoteric point of debate in my view though.
[quote]9) In no more than 4 sentences how do you think Question 8 affects question 1?[/quote]
I don’t think it will have any effect on the Raspberry Pi fulfilling its purpose.
[quote]10) Bonus Question: Is any of this new knowledge for you, and if so does it change your opinion on any issue?[/quote]
No and no.

[max1zzz]

[quote]1) What is the purpose of the Raspberry Pi?[/quote]
To give kids a tool to learn how to use a computer at a lower level (that it isn\'t the end of the world if they ruin it)
[quote]
2) How much experience do you think the Raspberry Pi Team has running a company on scale of 1 to 10 (With 1 being \"I think they\'re highly intelligent people, but have no experience running a business\" and 10 being \"They\'re the best around and nothings ever gonna keep them down)[/quote]
8 - they seem to be doing a brilliant job

[quote]3) On a scale of 1-5 how open source are you? (with 1 being \"I like Apple\'s mindset\" and 5 being \"I\'m such a die hard open source guy that I don\'t even buy socks without them coming with a full data sheet on every piece of equipment used from start to finish of the sock making process\") Feel free to give a one or two sentence reason behind your mindset but PLEASE don\'t respond to others it\'s only an opinion[/quote]
3 - I have no problem using closed source software, and equally i have no problem with semi-open of fully open software, aslong as it gets the job done it\'s ok with me, same with hardware (btw. why is \"apple\'s mindset\" 1? they release the OSX kernel source, aswell as the source of other parts of the system)

[quote]4) In no more than 4 sentences how do you think Question 3 affects Question 1?[/quote]
Not very much, i may run on a mainly closed os, that doesn\'t stop me modifying it. the same would be true even if the RPI was compleatley closed, both in hardware and software

[quote]5) What do you think the relationship is between the Raspberry Pi Foundation and Broadcom?[/quote]
Broadcom - supplier, RPI - user

[quote]6) Have you ever created your own custom bios (Or modified the bios at the code level)[/quote]
nope

[quote]7) Have you ever installed a custom bios (not custom drivers, custom bios)[/quote]
again, no
EDIT: Yes if you count flashing xbox\'s (JTAG on the 360\'s and TSOP flashing on the orig) in fact, come to think of it, i have done quite a lot of firmware flashing
[quote]8 ) What is your current understanding of the GPU issue? (seriously guys your thoughts only, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don\'t respond to others)[/quote]
It\'s not a problem, most people aren\'t gonna need direct access to the GPU, im happy using the broadcom\'s \"blob\"
[quote]
9) In no more than 4 sentences how do you think Question 8 affects question 1?[/quote]
not at all, for the majority of people just aren\'t going to need that sort of access, and as has been said, if people really want that access so much broadcom\'s \"blob\" will be reverse engineered

[quote]10) Bonus Question: Is any of this new knowledge for you, and if so does it change your opinion on any issue?[/quote]

Not really, but the RPI project is one of 2 things that has got me interested in electronics again (the other being that im doing a GCSE in it )

[Nutmeat]

[quote]Quote from abishur on December 5, 2011, 15:11
...

Okay, here we go (and play nice guys )
[/quote]
Sure. Because there were no instructions to finish reading the original post, I\'m going to take a stab at this without first reviewing your facts. I consider myself enthusiastically informed.
[quote]Quote from abishur on December 5, 2011, 15:11
1) What is the purpose of the Raspberry Pi?
[/quote]
Of the board? To be a (f!ng amazing, totally inexpensive, up-to-date, and amazingly capable) computer that is completely affordable, so that _kids_ (we\'re talking the under 18 crowd here) once again can learn to program, and be productive with a computer, and so that the value or cost of the computer doesn\'t become a barrier to education, or something similar. Hey, it\'s an officially charitable effort in GB, and I don\'t care where you\'re from, if you\'re doing it for charity, it\'s been given the stamp of approval that it IS going to make the world a better place for someone other than just you.
[quote]Quote from abishur on December 5, 2011, 15:11
2) How much experience do you think the Raspberry Pi Team has running a company on scale of 1 to 10 (With 1 being \"I think they\'re highly intelligent people, but have no experience running a business\" and 10 being \"They\'re the best around and nothings ever gonna keep them down)
[/quote]
What do I think? I haven\'t the faintest idea. They all seem like \"established in their careers\" professionals, so I don\'t think they\'re going to fail because of poor business decisions. I just don\'t feel I can even answer this.
[quote]Quote from abishur on December 5, 2011, 15:11
3) On a scale of 1-5 how open source are you? (with 1 being \"I like Apple\'s mindset\" and 5 being \"I\'m such a die hard open source guy that I don\'t even buy socks without them coming with a full data sheet on every piece of equipment used from start to finish of the sock making process\") Feel free to give a one or two sentence reason behind your mindset but PLEASE don\'t respond to others it\'s only an opinion
[/quote]
I\'m a 4 if 1 is as freedom hating as the fruit company, 3 is neither freedom loving or freedom hating, and 5 are the people that say Debian isn\'t free enough. (Arg, I feel shame. I\'m writing this using an open source text editing application... running on an XP box. *sigh*) I\'m enamoured by the ideologies of open source, and am taking personal strides to move there, but there are forces in my life that pull me away from that goal, and which are keeping me from attaining a state where I can at last declare, \"I am free to understand the all the tools that lay here before me, and to fashion new tools in their honour.\" Alas, the effort involved in resisting certain of those forces is far greater than I feel capable of mustering.
[quote]Quote from abishur on December 5, 2011, 15:11
4) In no more than 4 sentences how do you think Question 3 affects Question 1?[/quote]
I\'m not certain I understand the question. My willingness to use software based on license restrictions does not play a role in the purpose of the foundation or the board.
If you\'re asking what role open source is playing in achieving a purpose of the Raspi, it would take me all night to whittle my philosophical take on that down to the one remaining sentence I have. I\'m sorry, but I can\'t do better than offer the \"tools\" quote above.

[quote]Quote from abishur on December 5, 2011, 15:11
5) What do you think the relationship is between the Raspberry Pi Foundation and Broadcom?
[/quote]
Legally, arms-length. With lots of good will (that purchase agreement is good will).
[quote]Quote from abishur on December 5, 2011, 15:11
6) Have you ever created your own custom bios (Or modified the bios at the code level)
[/quote]No. It never even crossed my mind that I should.
[quote]Quote from abishur on December 5, 2011, 15:11
7) Have you ever installed a custom bios (not custom drivers, custom bios)
[/quote] I don\'t know. I may have. I\'m foggy on some of the things I did decades ago.
[quote]Quote from abishur on December 5, 2011, 15:11
8 ) What is your current understanding of the GPU issue? (seriously guys your thoughts only, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don\'t respond to others)
[/quote]
What issue? Are you talking about the people that are belly aching because Broadcom isn\'t providing this or that as it relates to the GPU?
Broadcom is Broadcom and is wrapped-up in a much bigger reality than most people understand. We have been thrown a bone. I won\'t bite the hand that feeds me.
[quote]Quote from abishur on December 5, 2011, 15:11
9) In no more than 4 sentences how do you think Question 8 affects question 1?[/quote]
Like I said, Broadcom is wrapped-up in a much bigger reality than most people understand. The people behind the foundation have been given a huge sign of respect by the people at broadcom. That respect should be returned by those that stand to benefit from the foundation\'s work.

[quote]Quote from abishur on December 5, 2011, 15:11
Here are my responses, they\'re just the facts ma\'am ...[/quote]
Okay, I\'ve read them.

Glad I understood #5 correctly.

ARMs-length. I crack me up.

And the bonus question:
I always learn something from a discussion like this. I learned something about myself, too.
Thanks!
[edit: quotes]