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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:10 pm

And again, clearly broadcom hasn\'t considered these options or else they\'d be using them.
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:21 pm

[quote]Quote from abishur on December 4, 2011, 20:10
And again, clearly broadcom hasn\'t considered these options or else they\'d be using them.[/quote]

And again, how is your constant fobbing off of what is simply fellow users having a discussion helpful?

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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:34 pm

Guys: consider this a final warning. We have had to shut threads on this topic down before because they have descended into incivility, and this one also appears to be going the same way. I understand that there are some very passionate people out there on both sides, and I would ask you all to inject a bit of pragmatism into the way you think about Raspberry Pi; we have had to be pragmatic ourselves in making the decisions we made in building the device, or we\'d never have got anywhere with the project.

Play nice, or I\'m closing this thread too. We encourage discussion here, but I can\'t help but notice that this particular subject *always* seems to descend into fights - perhaps someone might like to start a thread on why that\'s the case.
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:13 pm

[quote]Quote from Scribe on December 4, 2011, 20:21
[quote]Quote from abishur on December 4, 2011, 20:10
And again, clearly broadcom hasn\'t considered these options or else they\'d be using them.[/quote]

And again, how is your constant fobbing off of what is simply fellow users having a discussion helpful?[/quote]

Well I would hope it would make you stop attacking jack and james as if they were the people in charge of how broadcom operates rather than as mere employees (is jack even an employee... is james?) who are trying to explain their companies stance as opposed to their own. I\'m not trying to be rude with my posts here, but what are your credentials that you bring to the table to make such bold statements? Are you the head of an international company. Are you in charge of distribution for a company? Do you have an MBA or accounting degree? Do you know exactly what broadcom has experimented with? Now again I\'m really not trying to attack you here. As highly intelligent IT people, we tend to have strong opinions as we are very intelligent. I\'m just saying that if you looked at it objectively you\'re most likely a little out of your element on this issue. That doesn\'t mean sit down and shut up, but it does mean it seems pointless for you to sit there and assume that broadcom hasn\'t done any of the things you\'re suggesting, because if they had they\'d redo the entire way they do things. Odds are fairly good that a company this large and this successful has done, is doing, and will continue to do countless cost analysis scenarios and they\'ve chosen the one they have because it\'s the one that works best for them.

And I\'m definitely saying that I fail to see the point treating jamesh and jack like they\'re idiots. And hey maybe that\'s wasn\'t your intent anymore than it was my intent to rile you up with my previous posts, a lot get\'s lost when posting over speaking, but it\'s definitely how it looks from this side of the screen ;)
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:31 pm

Jack isn\'t a Broadcom employee; he\'s a Raspberry Pi trustee who has nothing at all to do with Broadcom. James is a Broadcom engineer (and isn\'t a RP trustee, although he does volunteer to work for us, for which we are *extremely* grateful).

We like it when our trustees and volunteers are treated politely. They\'ve made enormous sacrifices for this project, and I believe they deserve some respect in return for that. Not deference; but politeness goes a long way.
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:35 pm

It\'s not Broadcom\'s Ninja Unit that people should be worried about.
It\'s Mooncake.

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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:42 pm

Yeah. And the good news is, that I do not enforce the politeness rule when it comes to Mooncake, because she can\'t read. So folks: have at it. You can be as rude as you like about the Raspberry Pi cat.
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:42 pm

ah, thanks for the clarification Liz!
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:52 pm

[quote]Quote from liz on December 4, 2011, 21:42
Yeah. And the good news is, that I do not enforce the politeness rule when it comes to Mooncake, because she can\'t read. So folks: have at it. You can be as rude as you like about the Raspberry Pi cat.[/quote]

Mooncake sings and looks like jedwood

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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:56 pm

[quote]Quote from jacklang on December 4, 2011, 15:57
You can\'t ignore the question of support. These are complex chips, with complex interfaces
To get the best out of them the development team has to be extremely knowledgeable. That is where the cost lies.[/quote]

Jack seems to have put in four sentences what took me four paragraphs!

Probably why I\'m still a humble engineer!
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:16 pm

@abishur
Likewise, however, it\'s equally offensive to suggest members of the community supporting the promotion of the RapberryPi, some of which will no doubt will also contribute when their time comes, don\'t understand or know anything about business or to presume their background or knowledge (and I\'m not just talking about myself here).

Having also worked for multi-national firms in the past (admittedly not as CEO!), I understand very well how disjointed operations between departments and branches, lower and upper tiers tend to be and how difficult it is to speak on behalf of a company unless you are in a position such as CEO or have an official statement. For this reason I must assume that those in this post are talking personally, from their own points of view, perhaps with insights to elements of Broadcom workings, but nothing to hold as anything solid or proven about the firm, its full capabilities or intentions. If I were an an employee for a firm, speaking about that firm, I would not consider myself to be representing the firm at such a time for these reasons.

This does not mean I don\'t hold value to what is being said, but with this in mind if my suggestions, based on industry practises elsewhere and personal experience, are to be shot down, I\'d like good reasons as to why, else, It\'s fine to agree to disagree, but the wording of replies has been very much defensive and presumptuous and suggesting that those who don\'t accept the status quo. are wrong, seemingly even for voicing their concerns and opinions, as opposed to responses more along the lines like \"perhaps in the future\", \"I\'m unsure but in my opinion\", \"no because I\'ve been officially informed for this reason\" that promote reasonable discussion.

There\'s nothing wrong with arguing and disagreeing, rather I think it\'s necessary for any purposeful discussion, but poster responses have felt like for some reason people are fighting for their lives as opposed to just joining in.

EDIT: I do agree this post title doesn\'t help, perhaps shouldn\'t have followed on in this thread...

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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:22 pm

From my point of view, those people look as if they are \"fighting for their lives as opposed to just joining in\" because they\'ve been through this argument about a dozen times on this forum, and are getting a bit sick of it; having to defend what you do for a living, or (in the Foundation\'s case) pragmatic decisions you have taken in order to make something like Raspberry Pi *actually happen* gets tired after a while. Seriously - search the forum for the words \"open\", \"Broadcom\" and so forth, and you\'ll see this is very old ground we\'re going over. People do feel personally invested when their jobs and the work they\'ve put money and time into are attacked. There\'s nothing strange about that, and nothing strange about the way they are reacting.

I interrupt proceedings with a picture of the cat. (I\'d watch it, Scone. She can see into souls.)

[img]http://www.raspberrypi.org/wp-content/u ... oncake.jpg[/img]
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:33 pm

[quote]Quote from liz on December 4, 2011, 22:22
.

I interrupt proceedings with a picture of the cat. (I\'d watch it, Scone. She can see into souls.)

[img]http://www.raspberrypi.org/wp-content/u ... oncake.jpg[/img][/quote]

Of course that only works if you actually have a soul. Sold mine years ago.

and mine shoots lasers from his eyes. [img]http://russelldavis.org/Stuff/lasergizmo.jpg[/img]

[excuse the mess, i was in the middle of tidying George and Gizmo\'s beds]

Now back to our normal programming

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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:37 pm

@liz

On the contrary, aside from the opening title being pretty provocative, reading this and other threads, people have simply raised their concerns and worries, frustrated that there are ways the RaspberryPi could be used but currently can not. They all think it\'s a great product and want to make more of it. For these possible uses it must feel like window shopping!

This has been met, as you say, by people feeling threatened, because there\'s relation to their job roles, which in my opinion has been unfounded, no one says the product is bad, that the team are somehow doing wrong, they are posting ideas, concerns, worries, suggestions and being met with a defensive (and thus typically aggressive or harsh) tone that is promoting overly heated discussion.

I mean, re-read guspuppet99\'s original posting at the start of this thread, he\'s saying it\'s a good product, how he could use it but can\'t and explaining his worries, and that was one of the harsher posts...

If I\'m told my product is great but it\'s not all it can be I listen and, even if I disagree with what I\'m being told or think that the request is unreasonable, I listen some more, explain the situation and work with the idea or agree to disagree if needs be, perhaps suggesting to re-examine the suggestion at a later date, end of.

If there\'s a backlog of this same discussion, forgive us for being human, would appreciate some moderation to close and redirect the thread so that people know not to continue, or to continue in the original topic of discussion as not to back-tread.

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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:02 pm

I agree that this topic is probably no longer fruitful to discuss. I would suggest putting a clarification of the BCM2835 policy in the Wiki and update it if it changes. Then limit future discussions with a pointer to the Wiki entry.

Here\'s my understanding of the policy at this time:

1. No documentation about GPU internals or register interface is going to be published. Nada. Zip. None of the other SoCs publish this so it\'s unreasonable to expect Broadcom to.

2. The BCM2835 data sheet sans GPU may or may not be published at some time, in whole or in part. If its non-publication is a deal-breaker for you, you are free spend a bit more and get a Texas Instruments, Freescale, or Marvell development board. We will leave up in the air whether the fact that the TI OMAP is in both the Kindle Fire and Color Nook/Tablet has anything to do with the openness of OMAP\'s documentation except for GPU.

Personally, I understand (1) but find (2) annoying. It\'s not going to stop me from using RasPi as a pure-software development platform, but it\'s still annoying.

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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:38 am

@scribe, I\'m not implying, or at the very least not trying to imply ;) , that the people on this thread have no expertise in these fields. I am saying that before you go implying that people are ignorant (and again, maybe that\'s not what you meant, so much get\'s lost with simple text) you show some of the cards in your hands so we can go, \"oh wow that person is really authoritative\" or \"This guy is really speaking out of turn\". Now the basic assumption I bring for the users on this forum is what you just described yourself as: someone who is very intelligent, may have been (in your case has been/is) a part of a multinational firm as an employee, but not in charge of the decision making process or as the person in charge of distribution and as such that this subject is outside our direct domain of knowledge and as such it\'s a little uncalled for personal opinions to rise to the point where we\'re basically calling the other person an idiot for (in our opinion) not knowing about subject mater X. Which is why I worded my first two responses the way I did, to remind you to step back and breath for a moment (which you did with your last post, I can\'t stress how much I really appreciate that as I\'ve thoroughly enjoyed your input all over this board :D )

Which brings me back to the issue where I think we diverged on this thread :P Will the r-pi be able to be used commercially. I think john summed up your (and many people\'s) position quite nicely. But I think the core issue is kinda that we\'re misunderstanding (in my opinion) what it is that we really don\'t have access to and as a result misunderstanding the impact of the GPU.

What my understanding is (and please if this is wrong correct me Jamesh or Gert) is that the GPU blob could very much be compared to the bios of a motherboard. The motherboard doesn\'t come with documentation on its bios, yet it doesn\'t reduce the ability of the end user to.. well use, the motherboard. It provides access to all relevant functions via a bios manager (the APIs for the GPU). Now there a very few number of people who have used a custom bios and even fewer who have designed a custom bios, yet this seldom creates any trouble for anyone.

Now this might be a false analogy, but obviously I don\'t think so :P :P can we get some official response as to how accurate a view this is of the GPU blob?
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:46 am

[quote]Quote from johnbeetem on December 4, 2011, 23:02
I agree that this topic is probably no longer fruitful to discuss. I would suggest putting a clarification of the BCM2835 policy in the Wiki and update it if it changes. Then limit future discussions with a pointer to the Wiki entry.[/quote]

That\'s a great suggestion, no-one wants to walk into a mine field.
That said then why limit discussion, there is a venting forum after all.

You can see that more than a few care greatly - which is brilliant given the cause.
That said I don\'t see a reason that compels someone to to enter a post if they don\'t want to.
Its a community that needs building & that takes all sorts & all environments. I wouldn\'t hang out in the \'Mother Shipton\' (the seats are a bit sticky) but I am sure that there are some good, albeit incontinent, people in there.
The fact that there is not a document on pin-outs etc means that this is going to happen over & over, even with a wiki.
OP: where\'s the ......
MOD: read wiki ....
OP: O man winge, occassional constructive comment, winge etc.

I am a sensitive soul & I feel that some of the responses need to be better pacticed, for the sake of building communities.

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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:30 am

[quote]Quote from johnbeetem on December 4, 2011, 23:02
I agree that this topic is probably no longer fruitful to discuss. I would suggest putting a clarification of the BCM2835 policy in the Wiki and update it if it changes. Then limit future discussions with a pointer to the Wiki entry.

Here\'s my understanding of the policy at this time:

1. No documentation about GPU internals or register interface is going to be published. Nada. Zip. None of the other SoCs publish this so it\'s unreasonable to expect Broadcom to.

2. The BCM2835 data sheet sans GPU may or may not be published at some time, in whole or in part. If its non-publication is a deal-breaker for you, you are free spend a bit more and get a Texas Instruments, Freescale, or Marvell development board. We will leave up in the air whether the fact that the TI OMAP is in both the Kindle Fire and Color Nook/Tablet has anything to do with the openness of OMAP\'s documentation except for GPU.

Personally, I understand (1) but find (2) annoying. It\'s not going to stop me from using RasPi as a pure-software development platform, but it\'s still annoying.
[/quote]

I think your point 2 hits the nail on the head.

If the lack of documentation or chip availability in small batches is a problem for you, then this is not the chip for you. There is a reason it is so cheap in the Raspberry Pi, and similar chips from other manufacturers are more expensive. It because there is no documentation, or small batch sales. If you add full documentation and start to sell in small numbers, the prices rise up to the same level as those charged by other manufacturers. So you may as well go directly to those other manufacturers. It really is entirely your choice. Cheap and cheerful, or expensive and fully supported.

re: OMAP in Kindle like devices - nothing to do with the openness or not of the documentation. Were a company like Broadcom to be working on devices like that, then the manufacturer would be getting lots of docs and technical support because they would be paying an awful lot of money for it, and/or going to sell a LOT of chips to make back the tech support costs.

People buying the Raspberry Pi are NOT paying an awful lot of money. They are getting a bargain. And there are disadvantages to bargains - they may not be exactly what you want.

The Raspberry Pi is a teaching device. Use it for any other purpose and it may not be exactly what you need.
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:05 am

[quote]Quote from johnbeetem on December 4, 2011, 23:02
2. The BCM2835 data sheet sans GPU may or may not be published at some time, in whole or in part.[/quote]
(2) is, however, mitigated by the fact that the majority of the information that\'s usually in a datasheet is available by going through the Linux patches provided by Broadcom. No, it\'s not quite the same, no, it doesn\'t explain the \"edge cases\" that Linux doesn\'t tickle, and yes, it assumes the Broadcom code is bug-free and adequately documented.

However, it\'s a long way towards being enough for (for example) developing other operating systems with drivers for everything Broadcom have developed Linux drivers for.

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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:32 am

[quote]Quote from tufty on December 5, 2011, 10:05
However, it\'s a long way towards being enough for (for example) developing other operating systems with drivers for everything Broadcom have developed Linux drivers for.
[/quote]
What non Linux OS would you use? I guess that the SoC has the grunt to run XPE (Geode did) so maybe an interesting idea.

I think that the driver stuff should be fairly standard & well covered by the source, all except for the GPU and DSP. I would guess that you could easily identify, say, the USB controller and drop that into Platform Builder if you want to use CE. Platform Builder was not cheap though the last time I bought it!
The GPU driver may be a problem but it would cost a lot to either make or document that.

Chip pin outs and I/O details is my main \'gripe\'. Was looking for the reset pin the other day.........
Hopefully someone in the know here will start a wiki page.....

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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:14 am

[quote]Quote from bradburts on December 5, 2011, 10:32
[quote]Quote from tufty on December 5, 2011, 10:05
However, it\'s a long way towards being enough for (for example) developing other operating systems with drivers for everything Broadcom have developed Linux drivers for.
[/quote]
What non Linux OS would you use? I guess that the SoC has the grunt to run XPE (Geode did) so maybe an interesting idea.[/quote]
One of the BSDs, RiscOS, Haiku, any of the numerous RTOSes / tiny executives out there, armpit, Riscy Pygness, or, in my case, LambdaPi.

But not Windows.

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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:58 am

What about TI A8 AM335x ? launched at 5$ with all ti ecosystem...
http://focus.ti.com/docs/training/catal ... =OLT111048
Maybe a better choice for a community project !

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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:37 pm

[quote]Quote from ozone on December 5, 2011, 11:58
What about TI A8 AM335x ? launched at 5$ with all ti ecosystem...
http://focus.ti.com/docs/training/catal ... =OLT111048
Maybe a better choice for a community project !
[/quote]

Point has been mentioned before, you can find it in the BeagleBone product at £62. Subtle differences between the two choices, RaspberryPi guys can get the Broadcom chip for a good price in smaller quantities due to unique Broadcom relationship (I\'ll note $5 is a 100,000k price). Broadcom chip has stacked memory for reduced board space and built-in HDMI for a quick and easy video out with a powerful GPU to back it up.

On the other-hand the AM335X of course has advantages, easy to obtain and work with, more powerful CPU with NEON and two real-time cores, PWM and ADC, but has fairly weak SGX530 gfx core with no dedicated video decode unit.

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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:40 pm

Looks pretty good. Although that $5 price is for the low end device in volume, the GPU acceleration is an optional extra, and it only does 720p. The SGX530 core used is pretty slow, I think about half the 3D performance of the Videocore IV. Would be interested to see what a equivalent spec to the Raspi SoC would cost.

Quality of the audio on the video is awful though - they need to get some help there!
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:49 pm

[quote]Quote from jamesh on December 5, 2011, 12:40
Looks pretty good. Although that $5 price is for the low end device in volume, the GPU acceleration is an optional extra, and it only does 720p. The SGX530 core used is pretty slow, I think about half the 3D performance of the Videocore IV. Would be interested to see what a equivalent spec to the Raspi SoC would cost.

Quality of the audio on the video is awful though - they need to get some help there![/quote]

To put it in context the top model AM335X is sampling at $17.80 in orders of 1000 units. The top model minus EtherCAT and the model that will end up in future BeagleBones is sampling at $14.05 in 1000 units.

Prices may drop once it hits full production run next year and so I wouldn\'t expect individual unit prices to increase much once it filters down to distributors, so those figures are probably pretty representative of the costs.

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