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davidcoton
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:05 pm

cspan wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:55 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:43 pm

The tweaks only apply to Raspberry Pi 4B, CM4, 400. Do not apply to x86 hardware.
OK, thanks - but for future reference when this becomes relevant for me (buying a 4B or 400), can you point me to these special tweaks?
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:21 pm

@mrlinux2u: may I share your settings in your article?

@Rudolf: thank you for the feedback. I agree, it's very generalized. Best to simply try it out on a case-by-case base;
Still, there's no reason not to use an HDD in place of an SSD, if you are not after the "ultimate possible speed"
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:32 pm

pi3g wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:21 pm
@mrlinux2u: may I share your settings in your article?

@Rudolf: thank you for the feedback. I agree, it's very generalized. Best to simply try it out on a case-by-case base;
Still, there's no reason not to use an HDD in place of an SSD, if you are not after the "ultimate possible speed"
@pi3g Yes, help yourself :D

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:11 pm

@mrlinux2u: thank you very much, I've added your recipe as the recommended one :-)

https://picockpit.com/raspberry-pi/23-f ... 400-facts/
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:41 pm

AndyStubbs wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:00 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:18 pm
I'll pass that on - I also thought the HDMI cable was a bit short.
Not as short as the mouse cable - that barely reaches the correct position on the desk - not complaining its a cracking bit of kit but could use a little tweaking on cable lengths :)
The mouse cable was problematic for me, on the mouse I bought separately a while back. I was hoping to use it as my main mouse, connected to my laptop, but it would not reach from the mousepad next to the righthand side of the laptop to the docking station about 10cm behind the laptop, towards the left. I understand the need to keep costs down, but I feel it would be better to give it a longer cable, around 1.5m, since it would be useful to more folk.

(The cable on the mouse I bought was about 60cm long).
Last edited by andrum99 on Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 23 fun Raspberry Pi 400 facts

Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:54 pm

pi3g wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:01 pm
I've compiled a list of 23 fun Raspberry Pi 400 facts - including some in this thread:

https://picockpit.com/raspberry-pi/23-f ... 400-facts/

It includes a new bonus fact I've not seen here before (yesterday): The Pi 400 still has the USB 2.0 OTG port routed to the USB C plug.

Cheers,
Max

P.S: Many thanks to all Raspberry Pi engineers who have shared background information on here & clarified things!
The Pi 4B 8GB uses the C0 stepping of the BCM2711 as well.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:06 pm

@andrum99: thanks for the correction, I've included it in my article along with thanks & a link back to this thread :-)
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:16 pm

andrum99 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:41 pm
AndyStubbs wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:00 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:18 pm
I'll pass that on - I also thought the HDMI cable was a bit short.
Not as short as the mouse cable - that barely reaches the correct position on the desk - not complaining its a cracking bit of kit but could use a little tweaking on cable lengths :)
The mouse cable was problematic for me, on the mouse I bought separately a while back. I was hoping to use it as my main mouse, connected to my laptop, but it would not reach from the mousepad next to the righthand side of the laptop to the docking station about 10cm behind the laptop, towards the left. I understand the need to keep costs down, but I feel it would be better to give it a longer cable, around 1.5m, since it would be useful to more folk.

(The cable on the mouse I bought was about 60cm long).
We are definitely looking in to this.
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Re: 23 fun Raspberry Pi 400 facts

Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:29 pm

andrum99 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:54 pm
The Pi 4B 8GB uses the C0 stepping of the BCM2711 as well.
How do I verify that please ?

"lscpu" shows the same stepping for my Pi4 8GB as it does for my Pi4 2GB
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Re: 23 fun Raspberry Pi 400 facts

Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:00 pm

jahboater wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:29 pm
andrum99 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:54 pm
The Pi 4B 8GB uses the C0 stepping of the BCM2711 as well.
How do I verify that please ?

"lscpu" shows the same stepping for my Pi4 8GB as it does for my Pi4 2GB
look at the printing on the SoC
my pi4b has a B0 near the end of one of the id codes on it

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Re: 23 fun Raspberry Pi 400 facts

Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:11 pm

cleverca22 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:00 pm
jahboater wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:29 pm
andrum99 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:54 pm
The Pi 4B 8GB uses the C0 stepping of the BCM2711 as well.
How do I verify that please ?

"lscpu" shows the same stepping for my Pi4 8GB as it does for my Pi4 2GB
look at the printing on the SoC
my pi4b has a B0 near the end of one of the id codes on it

https://www.jeffgeerling.com/sites/defa ... 0-B07.jpeg
The information is out there....you just have to let it in.

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Re: 23 fun Raspberry Pi 400 facts

Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:21 pm

andrum99 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:54 pm
The Pi 4B 8GB uses the C0 stepping of the BCM2711 as well.
I've got a Pi 4B 8GB with the B0 stepping so this isn't accurate. If they are using the C0 stepping then it is a recent change and there is no guarantee you'll get the new stock.

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Re: 23 fun Raspberry Pi 400 facts

Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:49 pm

trejan wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:21 pm
andrum99 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:54 pm
The Pi 4B 8GB uses the C0 stepping of the BCM2711 as well.
I've got a Pi 4B 8GB with the B0 stepping so this isn't accurate. If they are using the C0 stepping then it is a recent change and there is no guarantee you'll get the new stock.
I would think all will move to C0, did any use the B1 stepping mentioned (I guess not the 8GB then)

would seem a bit daft to print out and stick together an old stepping when you have a better stepping to use...

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Re: 23 fun Raspberry Pi 400 facts

Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:56 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:49 pm
I would think all will move to C0, did any use the B1 stepping mentioned (I guess not the 8GB then)

would seem a bit daft to print out and stick together an old stepping when you have a better stepping to use...
i dont know which model they had, but i have talked to somebody that had the B1 stepping
the main changes i'm aware of are improving the code-signing support, and fixing DMA bugs in the silicon

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Re: 23 fun Raspberry Pi 400 facts

Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:07 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:49 pm
I would think all will move to C0
Same. I'm not sure how long it'll take for stock of the bare B0 SoCs and the completed B0 boards to deplete though. Somebody on here was complaining about Adafruit selling them a v1.1 board even though the v1.2 board had been out for months at that point.

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Re: 23 fun Raspberry Pi 400 facts

Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:12 pm

trejan wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:07 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:49 pm
I would think all will move to C0
Same. I'm not sure how long it'll take for stock of the bare B0 SoCs and the completed B0 boards to deplete though. Somebody on here was complaining about Adafruit selling them a v1.1 board even though the v1.2 board had been out for months at that point.
Unless the advert said 1.2 then can't really see they have anything to argue against.
I'm surprised Adafruit still had some, maybe just bottom of the pil and didn't rotate the stock and now near the bottom again.


I wonder if they've blown all the stepping money now.
iirc (ok I just checked)
Budgeted for A0, B0, C0, C1. before release.
but a B1 has been slipped in.

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Re: 23 fun Raspberry Pi 400 facts

Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:36 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:12 pm
Unless the advert said 1.2 then can't really see they have anything to argue against.
I'm surprised Adafruit still had some, maybe just bottom of the pil and didn't rotate the stock and now near the bottom again.
Yeah. Adafruit aren't going to waste the time opening up each box to check. They don't want to get stuck with old stock either.

I'm surprised that they got a v1.1 though. There were people receiving them back in October 2019 but the Adafruit order was June 2020. Did somebody drop a crate behind something massive and only just manage to dig it back out again after 8 months?
bensimmo wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:12 pm
I wonder if they've blown all the stepping money now.
An undisclosed other company is also using the BCM2711 so they may have funded some of these revisions.

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Re: 23 fun Raspberry Pi 400 facts

Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:40 pm

trejan wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:36 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:12 pm
I wonder if they've blown all the stepping money now.
An undisclosed other company is also using the BCM2711 so they may have funded some of these revisions.
that 3rd party may also have been worrying about how the pi4b turning on code-signing "angered" some in the pi-community, and led to the code-signing being cracked, which then weakened the security for nearly all chips in this family (going back to the bcm2835 even)

the B1 silicon redid the security, and its now proper pub/priv keys, so it cant be cracked again

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Re: 23 fun Raspberry Pi 400 facts

Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:47 pm

trejan wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:36 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:12 pm
Unless the advert said 1.2 then can't really see they have anything to argue against.
I'm surprised Adafruit still had some, maybe just bottom of the pil and didn't rotate the stock and now near the bottom again.
Yeah. Adafruit aren't going to waste the time opening up each box to check. They don't want to get stuck with old stock either.

I'm surprised that they got a v1.1 though. There were people receiving them back in October 2019 but the Adafruit order was June 2020. Did somebody drop a crate behind something massive and only just manage to dig it back out again after 8 months?
bensimmo wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:12 pm
I wonder if they've blown all the stepping money now.
An undisclosed other company is also using the BCM2711 so they may have funded some of these revisions.

It is not surprising Broadcom Set Top Division use a variation of the SoCs, it was mentioned a few years ago that they helped develop the 2836/37 SoCs, so they are likely still a development partner
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Re: 23 fun Raspberry Pi 400 facts

Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:52 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:47 pm
It is not surprising Broadcom Set Top Division use a variation of the SoCs, it was mentioned a few years ago that they helped develop the 2836/37 SoCs.....
Different chip. BCM7211 is the STB version with some changed peripherals.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:02 pm

It's a pity the problem with screen resolution 1366x768 that existed in the Pi4 is still present in the Pi400.

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Re: 23 fun Raspberry Pi 400 facts

Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:14 pm

trejan wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:52 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:47 pm
It is not surprising Broadcom Set Top Division use a variation of the SoCs, it was mentioned a few years ago that they helped develop the 2836/37 SoCs.....
Different chip. BCM7211 is the STB version with some changed peripherals.

Yep hence why typed "variation"

a different or distinct form or version of something.
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trejan
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Re: 23 fun Raspberry Pi 400 facts

Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:25 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:14 pm
Yep hence why typed "variation"

a different or distinct form or version of something.
You're still not getting it. If the BCM7211 is the STB version then the STB division isn't going to be asking or paying for a respin of the BCM2711.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:31 pm

Rudolf wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:20 pm
Yes, SSD don't need to spin up like hard drives.
But, in real world I found many SSD drawing substantial more power compared to the ol'e HDDs.
Ah! This reminds me of another Pi 400 question.

Back in the day of the 3B/3B+, USB boot could be, or was, enabled, but when it came to USB boot from external HDD, it wouldn't always work. I think the issue was that HDD takes a bit of time to spin up, and to this end, one could specify a delay in the boot process to wait for it. Maybe 5 seconds, I'm not sure. This still didn't always work, depending on the drive. I remember testing it with my slim external HDD (a Seagate and a WD "My Passport"), as well as with the internal HDD that connected in a powered docking station via SATA and USB. I think only one reliably booted in time, the Seagate.

So my question for the Pi 400 (and 4B, if boot from USB works natively on that), is: is this "wait" or delay the same as before? Or is it more forgiving of slower-to-spin-up HDD? I would sort of like my next Pi to boot up from a HDD just like my desktop PC does. Thrift, longevity, and maybe robustness to power outages lead me to favor booting from HDD instead of SSD so I'm keen to see if it's doable, and if so, what caveats may apply. Thanks!

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:32 pm

ON5MF wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:02 pm
It's a pity the problem with screen resolution 1366x768 that existed in the Pi4 is still present in the Pi400.
That would require a major change to the silicon, which is not a "stepping" change. i.e. not fixable in HW on this SoC at this stage. It's not a simple "bug fix" like the other changes in C0, it's a major change in the way the HDMI block works.
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