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bensimmo
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:41 pm

cspan wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:44 pm
richrussell wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:05 am
You can get Bluetooth speakers for under £10, so the lack of 3.5mm audio out really isn't such an issue if you can't do HDMI audio. Just as it was for mobile phones when they dropped the 3.5mm audio socket for headphones. If you really must have it then Bluetooth to 3.5mm modules also cost very little. I had one in my old car so I could connect my phone. Plenty of monitors do HDMI audio - that's how my current Pi 4 is set up.

For the intended market of home (using a TV) or office (probably not using audio, or using Bluetooth/USB headset), it's probably not a big problem hence why it doesn't have one.

I can definitely see me getting a Pi 400 to take with me when staying in hotels rather than taking a laptop. I've already got a Bluetooth mouse that I take with me, so that'll work nicely. But I'll have to wait until after lockdown for that to happen anyway.
I have used Pi in hotels, using the in-room television as a monitor. It works just fine. But it's not going to approach the packing elegance of a laptop. With the unit, power supply and cable, keyboard and cable, mouse and cable, HDMI cable, file storage (assuming you're not going to put all your eggs in one basket with that MicroSD card), it's clunky. Even if the 400 combines 2 of those, it's anything but sleek. And if you're at the hotel for a business meeting, you'll probably need a laptop anyway. I don't think you'll be bringing your room TV to the conference rooms.

***

Thank you all for mentioning upthread about audio pass-through on some monitors. That would be great; I'm going to have to look into that feature. Checking out monitors online at Micro Center (USA), I'm not generally finding that feature mentioned, so I'll have to look at them in person. My current 10 yr old Dell monitor does not have that, just HDMI input. There was an optional soundbar for it though. Of monitors with built-in speakers, it's startling to see that, wattage wise, it appears they're far worse than even the crappy ones that televisions come with these days. I'd also note that many televisions have a stability advantage over monitors, in that they often come with 2 legs (and/or 4 feet). Monitors are often supported by a single post in the middle, and you have to have a darn solid surface for them or they're going to wobble.

If pass-through audio is going the way of the dinosaur, I'll have to learn more about Bluetooth audio. I have had less than flawless experience with BT in automobiles, phones, and I hear BT keyboards aren't so great at maintaining a constant connection either. But we'll see what's out there at the time the need for a Pi 4 or a Pi 400 presents itself to me.
is that a bit monitor? acts like a heater for the room they get so hot?
I have one if so, great screen and has the sound bar, I don't think it has the pass through. I think you run the audio cable up and a 12V PSU and then attach the bar.


I have a few Dell older monitors that are even more irritating...
They have VGA, DVI and Displayport.
no HDMI.
No use to anyone ;-)

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karrika
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:49 pm

There is micro HDMI to DVI cables that work nicely. But audio is lost so it won't work in Pi400.

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bensimmo
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:50 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:35 pm
jahboater wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:29 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:27 pm


Indeed. I really don't get the uHDMI hate. I've been using it on the Pi4 since before launch and have had no problems with it at all.
Is micro HDMI a problem for people with limited manual dexterity?
It's no different to the USB-C power, or any sort of uUSB connector in my opinion. We've been plugging in and unplugging USB for years, uHDMI is unplugged much less. I find the full size HDMI a PITA myself, just so big and clunky.
My on ahs limited mobility, especially fine mother skills.
No problem at all.
Of all of them I hatted on the PiZero miniHDMI
As at the time I used the large space wasting but common sturdy HDMI and uHDMI (tablets, cameras and some laptops). nothing I knew or had used miniHDMI.

I assume cost stopped the use way back then, I can't remember.

Now keep on with a search for a compact, cheap ethernet alternative, they're so big and bulky it's disgraceful. I think Google/Amazon should sort it so they can get them on their Fire/Chromecast rather than just the large products and people will move over.
anyway, I digress.

fanoush
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:31 pm

fanoush wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:27 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:14 pm
A USB camera would take the 4th one, unless I added a hub and put keyboard and trackball on that.
What about extra usb in usb-c power? some splitter cable with usb female could do it.
I just verified it with Pi4 and it works. Used short usb-c host cable (usb-c to usb A female) then usb harddisk Y cable - put data male A plug to usb A female and power male A to 5V power brick - that boots the Pi. Now I have other end of Y cable with miniUSB male data+power. For some reason I also have miniUSB female to A female adapter which gives me usb A socket. plugged mouse into it and nothing. added "dtoverlay=dwc2,dr_mode=host" to config.txt and after reboot mouse works :-) Yes the cabling is a bit ugly but with some custom splitter cable with usb A female added this could be pretty easy to use. Wonder if e.g. Pimoroni could make such custom pi cable. Maybe short usb c male to usb c female passthrough with splitted usb A female could be ideal.

EDIT: something like this https://www.ebay.com/itm/163325503739
or better maybe this one https://www.ebay.com/itm/114489188535 - "USB3.0 A Female allows your type-c device (with OTG function) to be connected with external U disk, card reader, mouse, keyboard, game console, printer or other USB device. And USB A Male can be used for charging your type-c device. "
Last edited by fanoush on Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

cspan
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:36 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:41 pm
is that a bit monitor? acts like a heater for the room they get so hot?
I have one if so, great screen and has the sound bar, I don't think it has the pass through. I think you run the audio cable up and a 12V PSU and then attach the bar.


I have a few Dell older monitors that are even more irritating...
They have VGA, DVI and Displayport.
no HDMI.
No use to anyone ;-)
Mine is a Dell ST2010 monitor from, well, the year 2010. Hmmm, coincidence? Anyway it only has HMDI and VGA input. 1600x900. Gets warm, but far from hot.

The manual says this about its optional soundbar (which I didn't buy):
The Dell Soundbar is a stereo two channel system adaptable to mount on Dell Flat Panel Displays. The Soundbar has a rotary volume and on/off control to adjust the overall system level, a blue LED for power indication, and two audio headset jacks.
No info in the manual about the speaker wattage on the soundbar. Needless to say, I'm not going to look for such a thing used for possible use with the Pi 400, because if this monitor has as much mileage on it as my HDD, it's well into old age.

I am thinking of going with a TV for my next computer monitor anyway ... largely for the stability in support, and in part because a television's 10W built in speakers are not only more powerful than typical PC monitor speakers (1.5W), but they're stronger than the 5W I'm getting from my Logitech X-140!

***

Now, the 400 supposedly has better heat handling than the 4B. But, does the 4B still throttle anymore, in its case? I'm trying to see if the 400 has any advantage related to heat dissipation other than the 1.8 GHz vs. 1.5, or overclocking ability. If the 4B still throttles then I suppose it does. If it's just that 20% increase in speed, I might prefer the 4B because the 400 lacks a (normally-oriented) numeric keypad, something I use fairly often. Plus audio jack out, .... But I have to admit, it's a pretty close call.

As for a gift to a youngster, it's a no-brainer. Pi 400, unless said youngster is known to keep a box of miscellaneous cables and adapters, or other types of spare computer parts and peripherals. In which case, you have to respect that kind of thrift, and let them unleash it on the 4B.

jchidley
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:07 pm

jahboater wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:53 pm
Do I see a proper push push SD card slot back again?
Yes. Personally I prefer the ones that don’t accidentally pop out your card at inconvenient moments during handling. The engineers have done their job well - the sd card is recessed. Accidents are unlikely. Best of both.

cleverca22
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:10 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:28 pm
pik33 wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:23 pm
A question about analog audio... as there is no jack and there are possibilities like splitters, i2s, usb dongle to work around this problem... is there any place on the board where the analog audio signal (=audio PWM outputs) is available and can be soldered to?
Not that I am aware of.

EDIT: After consulting with my fellow engineers, who know loads more than I do...you can use GPIO for audio output, the same as people have been doing on the Pi Zero, which also lacks the analogue audio out socket.

https://learn.adafruit.com/introducing- ... io-outputs
is sounds like the pwm audio service is always running in the firmware?
and you just have to mux those signals out to the right set of pins and add your own lowpass to make it fully work?

except, on the pi4, the native audio was using PWM1_{0,1}
but that cant be muxed to any external pin, only PWM0_{0,1} can be muxed to external pins
is there a way to configure the firmware to use the other pwm driver?

the same problem also applies to the CM4 too, which didnt route the old audio pins out

jchidley
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:11 pm

Does anyone know how to power the Pi 400 without using the USB-C port? The 5V/GND GPIO ports don’t work - or, at least, I can’t get them working.

Edit: I just bought some female USB breakouts - 10 for under £3. Problem solved and keeps the GPIO free.
Last edited by jchidley on Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:17 pm

cspan wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:56 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:35 pm
And, if anyone is interested, the travel mice I use are: Verbatim "Mini Travel Mouse" model 97253.
Same one I have with my Pi 3B and Inland MK-100 Mini USB Keyboard. Originally I had the the official KB and mouse in black with that one, but I ended up not liking that KB (as mentioned), so they went back in favor of these.
Yeah...keyboards. The RPF keyboards aren't actually *bad*, but they're not something I'd want to spend time using more than casually. I will admit bias. My wife used to test out at over 100WPM, so she tested any keyboards we even looked at. At this point, both of us use Unicomp Classic, which are based on the old IBM PC "buckling spring" tech. After using that, any membrane keyboard is--at best--blah. The fly in ointment is that the Unicomp keyboards are about $90, though that is not expensive for mechanical switch keyboards these days.

What I think would be ideal would be to replace the RPF keyboard on the Pi400 with one of these: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=40381 TKL keyboards and probably a reworked lower section for the Pi400 guts. Monoprice also has a full version, but that's a good deal bigger.
BTW, I previously had some "mini travel mice", a 3-pack (not sure of brand) bought through Woot, IIRC. In terms of "days of use", they didn't last long at all, compared to a daily-driver mouse for the desktop PC. The retraction mechanism went first, of course, but the electronic functionality wasn't far behind.
Mine don't get heavy use, so I haven't had failure problems....so far. (I don't travel much, and that is mostly to either gaming or SF conventions.)

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HermannSW
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:18 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:09 pm
.
Designing Raspberry Pi 400 Blog

https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/design ... ry-pi-400/
Thanks for that link.

Interesting for me quotes from that text:

1) Wow:
With hundreds of thousands of Raspberry Pi 400 units in the first instance, we are above that scale.

2)
We also have a feature that is completely new to Raspberry Pi products: an on/off button!

3) Comparison of my 2nd and 3rd keyboard computers by Simon Martin (my 1st was a Sinclair ZX81):
C64_comparison-800x373.webp.png
C64_comparison-800x373.webp.png
C64_comparison-800x373.webp.png (230.77 KiB) Viewed 1150 times
https://stamm-wilbrandt.de/2wheel_balancing_robot
https://stamm-wilbrandt.de/en#raspcatbot
https://github.com/Hermann-SW/Raspberry_v1_camera_global_external_shutter
https://github.com/Hermann-SW/raspiraw
https://stamm-wilbrandt.de/en/Raspberry_camera.html

cspan
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:43 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:17 pm
Yeah...keyboards. The RPF keyboards aren't actually *bad*, but they're not something I'd want to spend time using more than casually. I will admit bias. My wife used to test out at over 100WPM, so she tested any keyboards we even looked at. At this point, both of us use Unicomp Classic, which are based on the old IBM PC "buckling spring" tech. After using that, any membrane keyboard is--at best--blah. The fly in ointment is that the Unicomp keyboards are about $90, though that is not expensive for mechanical switch keyboards these days.
I had a Unicomp that lasted something like 3 years of daily but moderate use, then had a rapid decline (doubling letters, or failing to actuate at all, esp. the space bar). Cleaning didn't help. It was a fine keyboard for three years, but at $30USD per year cost, it wasn't a great cost/benefit compared to, say, the Microsoft Natural that went through similar years of heavy use, and was more ergonomic.

IBM Models F and M were around when I started my working years. I remember being able to absolutely fly on those things. This was a time when there were no mice to slow you down. That came in a few short years. Anyway, I'd maintain that while the Unicomp is a very good keyboard, it's not in the same class as the IBM, same injection molds or not.

This post is typed on an Inland iK100, a 107 key USB keyboard that costs $3.99 - almost half of that Mini I mentioned! It's over two years old, and still totally fine, save for it trying to transition itself into a blank Das Keyboard. [3 keys are totally blank, 3 more are half gone.] So if it died today, my cost would be under $2/yr. Needless to say, I have a spare in waiting! No, it's not a great keyboard. But it's not bad either, and the cost/benefit ratio is fantastic.

ejolson
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:46 am

HermannSW wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:18 pm
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:09 pm
.
Designing Raspberry Pi 400 Blog

https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/design ... ry-pi-400/
Thanks for that link.

Interesting for me quotes from that text:

1) Wow:
With hundreds of thousands of Raspberry Pi 400 units in the first instance, we are above that scale.

2)
We also have a feature that is completely new to Raspberry Pi products: an on/off button!

3) Comparison of my 2nd and 3rd keyboard computers by Simon Martin (my 1st was a Sinclair ZX81):
C64_comparison-800x373.webp.png
I think that table has the serial speeds skewed a bit. The serial port on a C64 is able to achieve about 68Kbit/sec when writing to an SD card connected to an ATmega644.

https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/SD2IEC

On the other hand, the USB3 port on a Pi does not reach 5Gbit/sec because the PCIe lane to which it's connected has a limit of 4Gbit/sec or 500MB/sec. At the same time, I'd be surprised if you could get anywhere close to 500MB/sec of throughput to an SSD from the Pi's USB3 port.

Even if you could, the result is a factor of 58824 difference in serial port bandwidth between the Pi and the C64, which is much less than what's in the table.
Last edited by ejolson on Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:51 am

HermannSW wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:18 pm
1) Wow:
With hundreds of thousands of Raspberry Pi 400 units in the first instance, we are above that scale.
In a comment in the thread following the announcement blog, Dr. Upton mentioned (a couple of times) that the initial order is 200K units.

trejan
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:58 am

ejolson wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:46 am
On the other hand, the USB3 port on a Pi does not reach 5Gbit/sec because the PCIe lane to which it's connected has a limit of 4Gbit/sec or 500MB/sec.
No bottleneck. You can run a single USB 3.0 port at maximum speed. USB 3.0 has a maximum throughput of 4Gbps. The advertised 5Gbps is the raw signaling rate. USB has misleading advertising like WiFi which advertises speeds you can't actually achieve because its the signaling rate.

trejan
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:45 am

Keyboard controller is a Holtek HT45R0072 which is OTP so no reprogramming it to suit a different key matrix. There are pads on the bottom for the existing matrix though.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:58 am

bensimmo wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:41 pm
I have a few Dell older monitors that are even more irritating...
They have VGA, DVI and Displayport.
no HDMI.
No use to anyone ;-)
Nonsense. Even without investigating oddball cables, microHDMI to HDMI and an HDMI to DVI adapter, and away you go. Alternatively, a microHDMI to HDMI adapter and an HDMI to DVI cable. Both ways are readily available.

Nearly all of the monitors I have have VGA and DVI, but not HDMI. None of them have Displayport.

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HermannSW
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:06 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:51 am
HermannSW wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:18 pm
1) Wow:
With hundreds of thousands of Raspberry Pi 400 units in the first instance, we are above that scale.
In a comment in the thread following the announcement blog, Dr. Upton mentioned (a couple of times) that the initial order is 200K units.
I read Ebon's blog post, but not the many many comments.
Now I did, visiting all hits for "Upton" in the comments.
This can be interesting for those owning a Pi keyboard with a language different to the initial 6 available Pi400 languages -- swap tops:
Upton.kbd.png
Upton.kbd.png
Upton.kbd.png (43.29 KiB) Viewed 985 times

Regarding missing CSI-2 connector for Pi cameras (HQ/v2/v1 and some Arducam cameras fitting CSI-2 interface):
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=289936
6by9 wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:26 pm
75MHz is about right for GPIO max rate.
You'd struggle to bitbang a parallel receiver for camera data of any real resolution/framerate, let alone trying to receive MIPI CSI-2 data. CSI-2 is also not at standard 1.8V or 3.3V logic levels.
Maybe FPGA can convert camera Mipi data stream to something that can be fed into GPIO and processed further by the CPU (perhaps just the raw Bayer data). Flat ribbon cable is 1.0mm spaced, there are connector boards allowing to go from flat ribbon cable to pins (... to FPGA to GPIO) ...
https://stamm-wilbrandt.de/2wheel_balancing_robot
https://stamm-wilbrandt.de/en#raspcatbot
https://github.com/Hermann-SW/Raspberry_v1_camera_global_external_shutter
https://github.com/Hermann-SW/raspiraw
https://stamm-wilbrandt.de/en/Raspberry_camera.html

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Gavinmc42
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:23 am

I have a few Dell older monitors that are even more irritating...
They have VGA, DVI and Displayport.
no HDMI.
No use to anyone
I use old Dell monitors ALL the time, very common in Gov n Education systems.
Some of the older ones can even power a Zero, A+ or B+ via the USB hub.
Every time they upgrade PC systems the old monitors, mice and keyboards get re used.

Apart from the home TV's all my Pi's use Dells monitors or old secondhand store monitor/tvs.
All that is needed is a HDMI to DVI adapter, which can cost more than free or old $5 screens.
Going to need an audio solution unless I swap the home monitors for TV's.

The market place will fill the holes for Pi webcams and USB audio.
A nice portable screen that was easy to get would be good too.
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

trejan
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:31 am

HermannSW wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:06 am
Maybe FPGA can convert camera Mipi data stream to something that can be fed into GPIO and processed further by the CPU (perhaps just the raw Bayer data).
It is nowhere fast enough as each CSI-2 lane is 1Gbps. Even using the SMI peripheral won't be enough as that can only do 30-40MTs. The only interface on a Pi that is fast enough are the USB 3 ports. The requirement for a FPGA and possibly a USB 3 microcontroller will make this an expensive and niche item. Use a compatible USB webcam or a Pi Zero if you don't need the raw data stream.

X-Gen
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:46 am

Congratulations Pi foundation, for the Pi 400!
I've seen the cooling solution, and it appears to get no higher than 55C under full load.
I was wondering if then it would be interesting to make the metal heat sink a bit shorter, resulting in slightly less $$$, less weight, as the 400 would probably still run ok at 60-65C.
The heat doesn't go all the way through the keyboard anyway.

Still, it's impressive for the specs, I might actually buy one; not because I need it, but just for the fun of it!

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:46 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:23 am
A nice portable screen that was easy to get would be good too.
See https://www.packedpixels.com/
Upside, you can run them from batteries. Downside, pretty expensive.

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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:53 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:58 am
bensimmo wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:41 pm
I have a few Dell older monitors that are even more irritating...
They have VGA, DVI and Displayport.
no HDMI.
No use to anyone ;-)
Nonsense. Even without investigating oddball cables, microHDMI to HDMI and an HDMI to DVI adapter, and away you go. Alternatively, a microHDMI to HDMI adapter and an HDMI to DVI cable. Both ways are readily available.

Nearly all of the monitors I have have VGA and DVI, but not HDMI. None of them have Displayport.
To further substantiate on this, I just bought and assembled a brand new PC (or will this afternoon)
The graphics card is a mid-high end card from Q4 2017 supporting up to six monitors.
It includes three display port ports, and one HDMI port.
If the display port monitor is of no use to anybody, I'll gladly take it for use as a second, third and fourth monitor.
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52:4C:52:42:41

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AkulaMD
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:54 am

X-Gen wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:46 am
Congratulations Pi foundation, for the Pi 400!
I've seen the cooling solution, and it appears to get no higher than 55C under full load.
I was wondering if then it would be interesting to make the metal heat sink a bit shorter, resulting in slightly less $$$, less weight, as the 400 would probably still run ok at 60-65C.
The heat doesn't go all the way through the keyboard anyway.

Still, it's impressive for the specs, I might actually buy one; not because I need it, but just for the fun of it!
Don't forget the fact that different country has different climate. Smaller one might only suit your climate. RPT did what they did to make it work for all.
Raspberry Pi OS (32-bit) with desktop and recommended software
Raspberry Pi 4 Model B 8GB at stock speed (never overclock)

Never overclock your Pi.
Encourage optimization instead.

X-Gen
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 04, 2020 3:06 am

Looking at it online, I found that the kit looks very much alike the RPi4B with Raspberry keyboard and mouse (and adaptor) kit they're selling.
Seems in USA they're largely only available on preorder, and ADAfruit shows they're already out of stock.

It may have been nice to have some color variant of the Raspberry pi, not to confuse customers wanting to buy the Pi 400 (which on the search engines only gives the similar looking Pi4 kit).

trejan
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 04, 2020 3:10 am

X-Gen wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 3:06 am
Looking at it online, I found that the kit looks very much alike the RPi4B with Raspberry keyboard and mouse (and adaptor) kit they're selling.
That is because it is. They intentionally made the top half of the Pi 400 use the same molds and parts as the keyboard. It is only the bottom part with the PCB that is different.

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