Mandrake
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Sun May 10, 2020 4:54 pm

I want to install IchigoJam Basic, and a lightweight distro of Raspbian or other similar nature, and be able to dual boot between them.
This will be my first purchase and venture into the world of Rasp-Pi.
I'm looking to start an experiment with perhaps a Pi Zero W. I may need to go newer I don't know yet.
I was wondering if PINN supports any OS? I'm sure the something like IchigoJam is somewhat unique. It has been quite the struggle to find much online after a week of searching my brains out, other than the Pi, Arduino, or custom boards.
Even then, I'm not finding much that is current. Although seeing it still listed on the Downloads page gives me some confidence even though the version number looks a bit behind.

Thanks for any advice.

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procount
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Sun May 10, 2020 7:28 pm

@Peterhurn - I have replied to your question on github.
PINN - NOOBS with the extras... https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=142574

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procount
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Sun May 10, 2020 7:57 pm

Mandrake wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 4:54 pm
I want to install IchigoJam Basic, and a lightweight distro of Raspbian or other similar nature, and be able to dual boot between them.
This will be my first purchase and venture into the world of Rasp-Pi.
I'm looking to start an experiment with perhaps a Pi Zero W. I may need to go newer I don't know yet.
I'm sure something like IchigoJam is somewhat unique. It has been quite the struggle to find much online after a week of searching my brains out, other than the Pi, Arduino, or custom boards.
Even then, I'm not finding much that is current. Although seeing it still listed on the Downloads page gives me some confidence even though the version number looks a bit behind.
There is a version of Ichigojam Basic for the Raspberry Pi, but the last available version is v1.2, I think.
I was working with them to produce a version for PINN and I hope that will come to fruition soon, but at the moment it is not available.
Meanwhile, if you search this forum you will find other versions of Basic are available for the PI, like BBC Basic and some others.
Mandrake wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 4:54 pm
I was wondering if PINN supports any OS?
PINN will support most OSes. They must have a compatible file system (most do) and must be able to have their boot and root (and any other) partitions moved to an arbitrary partition number (that means U-Boot needs to be removed) and ideally they should not rely on using partition labels as references as this prevents multiple versions of the same OS existing on the same system. Each OS needs converting to PINN format before it can be used with PINN.
So far the exceptions have been: netBSD, freeBSD, centOS and Arch64. RISCOS needs some assistance from its developers to convert it due to the required hybrid file-system.
For the complete list of available OSes installable via PINN, goto http://pinn.mjh.nz
PINN - NOOBS with the extras... https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=142574

Mandrake
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Sun May 10, 2020 9:58 pm

Agreed, these questions should really be posted out in general or beginners. My apologies. Thank you again for all of the help!
Edited to move main content elsewhere.
Last edited by Mandrake on Sun May 10, 2020 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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procount
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Sun May 10, 2020 10:24 pm

Whilst I cut my programming teeth on Basic myself, I'm no way up to speed with the latest incarnations.
You might get better answers to that question from a wider audience by starting a separate topic thread.
PINN - NOOBS with the extras... https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=142574

Gertlex
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Mon May 11, 2020 1:38 am

Howdy. The documentation is excellent, and thanks in advance! I've done a fair bit of searching here and elsewhere, but didn't read the full 40 pages of the thread...

I don't think this fits the classic use cases targeted by PINN, but it doesn't seem too far off. Equipment:
- Raspberry Pi 3B+ (so, supports boot from USB, straight out of box)
- Installing PINN to a USB flash drive
- Intend to use this flash drive as an "installer" for multiple RPi3B+'s, install an OS onto a (brand new) uSD card plugged into the RPi; (plus ability to re-image a card in the future via the same procedure hopefully)
- Eventually: Customized Raspbian install to minimize postinstall setup. (Docs indicate plenty of support here :D )

Why: I hate setting up uSD cards in another computer then putting them into RPi's...

So my envisioned process would look like:
- Plug in PINN USB, keyboard, monitor
- Boot RPi; boots into PINN automatically, since no OS is installed on either USB or uSD
- Plug in uSD card
- Tell PINN to install Raspbian to the uSD card; it shows up in the Destination drive drop-down on the main menu view.

But, I'm running into an issue in trying to install any OS to the uSD card; I'm triggering this error: "Error reading existing partition table"
https://github.com/procount/pinn/blob/m ... d.cpp#L460
(I opted to come ask here rather than start digging into the code much more than that...)

As a sanity check, I verified that I can install an OS to the flashdrive, alongside PINN, so that works, and I now am familiar with the whole press-shift-to-reenter-PINN process now.

In testing, I'm using an already FAT32 formatted uSD card with an OS on it. A couple assumptions that might be invalid here:
- PINN takes care of formatting the card
- PINN works fine with a FAT32 card; partition table GPT

I've tried two different uSD cards (which by themselves both boot into existing raspbian installs), and used gparted to reset the partition table/format on one of them (GPT, FAT32)

Is there a way to get the above to work without some initial step with the uSD card done via another computer? Am I straying too far from what's supported? (Did I forget any needed details above?) Thanks!

ns-mitsuji
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Mon May 11, 2020 6:32 am

Hi, I'm maintainer of IchigoJam BASIC for Raspberry Pi.

Thank you for your interest in IchigoJam BASIC RPi. :D
And I'm sorry that BASIC 1.4 and PINN support of our product are not advanced.
The main cause is problem of limited human resources and priority,
but it is also major cause that Pi4 support has to be considered.
(Because with Pi4, the hardware has changed a lot.)

Since this month I was able to know that there were multiple users
who were interested in IchigoJam BASIC RPi, I'll consider giving it a higher priority.

Thank you so much.

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procount
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Mon May 11, 2020 1:48 pm

@Gertlex,
Gertlex wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:38 am
I don't think this fits the classic use cases targeted by PINN, but it doesn't seem too far off. Equipment:
- Raspberry Pi 3B+ (so, supports boot from USB, straight out of box)
- Installing PINN to a USB flash drive
- Intend to use this flash drive as an "installer" for multiple RPi3B+'s, install an OS onto a (brand new) uSD card plugged into the RPi; (plus ability to re-image a card in the future via the same procedure hopefully)
- Eventually: Customized Raspbian install to minimize postinstall setup. (Docs indicate plenty of support here )
You're right, this is not a use case that was considered.
Since PINN is (was?) primarily a multi-OS boot loader, it is expected that PINN is always present on the drive. It is not clear from the above if that is also your intention, or if you intend the booted PINN on the USB drive to ONLY install an OS (e.g. Raspbian) on the SD card (i.e. without PINN). If the latter, then that is not currently the workflow. You could implement that just by copying an image to the SD card.
There are currently 3 envisioned worklows:
1. Boot PINN from SD card and install OSes to SD card.
2. Boot PINN from SD card and install OS boot partition to SD card and OS root partition to USB
3. Boot PINN from USB and install OS to USB.
So in all cases, the OS boot partition and PINN live on the same device.

Here is an idea (untested):
1. install PINN on your USB stick.
2. Insert blank SD card in SD card slot, and USB stick in USB port.
3. Boot PINN from USB stick.
4. Use PINN's "Clone SD" feature to clone your USB drive to the blank SD card (This clone feature will work both ways).
5. Remove USB stick and reboot PINN from SD card
6. install OSes from the internet to SD card using PINN.
7. If you had any OSes in the /os folder of your USB stick, these will have been copied over to the SD card and can also be installed even without an internet connection.
8. Alternatively, if you want to install from a local USB stick including OS customisations, but without the install files taking up precious SD card space, insert a 2nd USB stick with your OSes on it.
Gertlex wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:38 am
But, I'm running into an issue in trying to install any OS to the uSD card; I'm triggering this error: "Error reading existing partition table"
https://github.com/procount/pinn/blob/m ... d.cpp#L460
That's probably because installing from SD card to USB is a special use case in PINN, which causes PINN to format the USB stick appropriately first, but the reverse use case does not exist. Even if it did, only the root partition would be installed on the SD card with the boot partition on the USB stick.
Gertlex wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:38 am
In testing, I'm using an already FAT32 formatted uSD card with an OS on it. A couple assumptions that might be invalid here:
- PINN takes care of formatting the card
- PINN works fine with a FAT32 card; partition table GPT
1. PINN only formats a USB drive, not the SD card. And it does not result in a standalone system unless PINN is stored on it.
2. PINN does not support GPT because the RPi bootloader will only boot from an MBR-based drive/card.

I think my idea above should accomplish your task of doing everything on the RPi, albeit with PINN installed on the SD card with the OS. But I see that as a benefit anyway, since you can re-image your SD card in the future without the need for the original USB drive. You can even hide PINN with the autoboot.txt file if you want to.

This is an interesting idea and I may try to improve the Use Cases to include something similar in future.
PINN - NOOBS with the extras... https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=142574

Gertlex
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Mon May 11, 2020 2:47 pm

Thanks for the reply!
Here is an idea (untested):
1. install PINN on your USB stick.
2. Insert blank SD card in SD card slot, and USB stick in USB port.
3. Boot PINN from USB stick.
4. Use PINN's "Clone SD" feature to clone your USB drive to the blank SD card (This clone feature will work both ways).
5. Remove USB stick and reboot PINN from SD card
6. install OSes from the internet to SD card using PINN.
7. If you had any OSes in the /os folder of your USB stick, these will have been copied over to the SD card and can also be installed even without an internet connection.
8. Alternatively, if you want to install from a local USB stick including OS customisations, but without the install files taking up precious SD card space, insert a 2nd USB stick with your OSes on it.
Interestingly, the clone option does not list the uSD card in the Destination drive drop-down. If there's a simple workaround for this, seems like this is totally a possible path forward.
Since PINN is (was?) primarily a multi-OS boot loader, it is expected that PINN is always present on the drive. It is not clear from the above if that is also your intention, or if you intend the booted PINN on the USB drive to ONLY install an OS (e.g. Raspbian) on the SD card (i.e. without PINN).
1. PINN only formats a USB drive, not the SD card. And it does not result in a standalone system unless PINN is stored on it.
Yup, I expected I'd probably end up with PINN on the uSD card as well. Not an issue on my end!
2. PINN does not support GPT because the RPi bootloader will only boot from an MBR-based drive/card.
Good to know. I think got the impression there was support for this after reading somewhere that hybrid MBRs are supported. This isn't something I require on my end, either way.

Thanks again!

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procount
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Mon May 11, 2020 3:19 pm

Gertlex wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 2:47 pm
Interestingly, the clone option does not list the uSD card in the Destination drive drop-down. If there's a simple workaround for this, seems like this is totally a possible path forward.
Ahh, my apologies! (I told you it was untested ;) )
I think that was to guard against people unwittingly overwriting PINN. However, this seems to be useful, so I'll take that out (or make it smarter) for the next release.
Gertlex wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 2:47 pm
I think got the impression there was support for this [GPT] after reading somewhere that hybrid MBRs are supported.
RPi and linux (Raspbian) in general supports GPT, but the RPI firmware/ boot loader can only BOOT off an MBR partition.
A Hybrid partition table is a GPT table where one of the partitions is made to look like part of an MBR table so that it can be booted, but it is not a viable solution to boot multiple OSes from, like in the case of NOOBS or PINN.
PINN - NOOBS with the extras... https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=142574

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procount
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Mon May 11, 2020 5:53 pm

PINN - NOOBS with the extras... https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=142574

Gertlex
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Mon May 11, 2020 10:26 pm

Great, I'll give that a go tonight!

A couple UX observations to share:
- Didn't find a way to shut down the raspberry pi cleanly from within PINN
- The 'Exit' via 'esc' functionality is disabled in the main window usually, but pressing 'esc' still works on (at least some of) the other screens.

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procount
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Mon May 11, 2020 10:58 pm

Gertlex wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:26 pm
- Didn't find a way to shut down the raspberry pi cleanly from within PINN
No need, unless you are in the middle of writing an OS or something similar, you can just pull the plug. It runs from RAM with the SD card in read only mode.
Gertlex wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:26 pm
- The 'Exit' via 'esc' functionality is disabled in the main window usually, but pressing 'esc' still works on (at least some of) the other screens.
\
As per NOOBS, and considering there's no need for a safe shutdown, Exit exits the recovery program in order to boot an installed OS, so there is no need to go there unless you have installed an OS. However, in PINN I added the facility to reboot from the boot menu, so I allowed exiting to that screen from the other menus in order to perform a reboot. It is prevented from the Main Menu for safety, since the only route from the boot menu is to boot an OS or reboot the Pi.
PINN - NOOBS with the extras... https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=142574

Gertlex
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Tue May 12, 2020 4:31 am

I'm going to call it a success! Retrying again as I type for better results though.
  • `cp -rf`'d the contents of the zip onto my existing PINN flash drive
  • Did a clone to the SD card; successfully booted PINN off the SD card.
  • Rebooted into USB PINN; Installed Raspbian lite or whatever to the USB flash drive
  • Then the subsequent clone (USB to SD) process got stuck at 8%. Still had mouse control and could move the windows etc. Probably a fluke.
  • Power cycled (with SD card removed), booted PINN, reinserted SD card
  • Second clone succeeded
  • Upon reboot from the USB, though, got stuck with four RPi logos in the top left. Could type like in a TTY, but it wasn't a functioning shell.
  • Did a thrid clone, and then it booted to login fine.
In retrospect, probably should have tried a plain reboot after I got stuck with the 4x RPi logos.
No need, unless you are in the middle of writing an OS or something similar, you can just pull the plug. It runs from RAM with the SD card in read only mode.
I did have a hunch my caution - without a solid reason - regarding powering down, would show me to be ignorant of an obvious fact :D

Thanks again! Let me know if you need further testing in the near term. Going to flesh out this installer approach on my end; likely using the cloning of second USB drive approach for simplicity.

BRX7
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Wed May 20, 2020 10:50 am

HI procount, will you be adding support for USB BOOT? or even a beta version
Thanks

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procount
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Wed May 20, 2020 2:23 pm

USB boot already works on those models that support it e.g. pi3.
When available on the Pi4, there will be a new release of PINN that supports it on that too.
PINN - NOOBS with the extras... https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=142574

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B.Goode
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Wed May 20, 2020 2:50 pm

procount wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 2:23 pm
USB boot already works on those models that support it e.g. pi3.
When available on the Pi4, there will be a new release of PINN that supports it on that too.

Presumably you (reasonably) want to wait for a full/final release, not a Beta...
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=274595

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procount
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Wed May 20, 2020 3:32 pm

You take a day off painting and look what happens! ;)
PINN has already been tested with the beta firmware and it works fine.
But I suppose users will also want all the OSes that PINN installs on the Pi4 to be USB bootable as well....?
That might take a little longer to test. I was thinking of an intermediate slip-stream to upgrade them on the fly until the maintainers update them accordingly. In the meantime - try and find any remaining bugs in the beta :)
PINN - NOOBS with the extras... https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=142574

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mattrix
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Tue May 26, 2020 11:40 pm

I wonder if the new firmware also allows the reboot {partition} to work?
www.matthuisman.nz

vnytech4
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Wed May 27, 2020 2:42 pm

How does PINN gets the last booted OS and from where..?

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procount
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Thu May 28, 2020 6:37 am

It is stored in
/Settings/noobs.conf
PINN - NOOBS with the extras... https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=142574

Done9
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:12 am

Hello All,

i am pretty new to all raspberry pi and linux stuff, but i like the challenge.

So I first booted Raspbian on my pi 4b and that seems to work well.
I also created an image of the Raspbian with the updates and the way it looks.
I did this with win32diskimager.
This image is about 14,5 GB.

Now i would like to use PINN to boot multiple OS'es.
I booted with PINN and I can choose all the available OS'es, but I also would like to add my custom Raspbian OS from my img.

So I tried 2 things.
1) I took my .img and used 7zip (on windows 10) to make it a tar and after that with 7zip a tar.xz.
I put this tar.xz file on an 16gb usb-stick (formated to fat32 with minitool partition wizard in windows 10) in a separate folder calles OS.
In PINN i tried the archive tab but it was not possible to download the tar.xz file.
So this was not an option.

2) I used etcher (on win 10) to install my custom image to the same usb-stick and tried to clone this using PINN to another usb-stick.
I also tried the same when i installed the custom image to a SD-card (64gb fat32) and tried to clone it with PINN to my 16gb usb-stick.
Both times it started well, but ended when the partitions were created with an error: "cannot mount /tmp/dst"

Can somebody tell my what i'm doing wrong or how i could fix this?

Thank you in advance for your help and your patience :-)

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procount
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:43 am

Done9 wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:12 am
Hello All,

i am pretty new to all raspberry pi and linux stuff, but i like the challenge.

So I first booted Raspbian on my pi 4b and that seems to work well.
I also created an image of the Raspbian with the updates and the way it looks.
I did this with win32diskimager.
This image is about 14,5 GB.

Now i would like to use PINN to boot multiple OS'es.
I booted with PINN and I can choose all the available OS'es, but I also would like to add my custom Raspbian OS from my img.

So I tried 2 things.
1) I took my .img and used 7zip (on windows 10) to make it a tar and after that with 7zip a tar.xz.
I put this tar.xz file on an 16gb usb-stick (formated to fat32 with minitool partition wizard in windows 10) in a separate folder calles OS.
In PINN i tried the archive tab but it was not possible to download the tar.xz file.
So this was not an option.

2) I used etcher (on win 10) to install my custom image to the same usb-stick and tried to clone this using PINN to another usb-stick.
I also tried the same when i installed the custom image to a SD-card (64gb fat32) and tried to clone it with PINN to my 16gb usb-stick.
Both times it started well, but ended when the partitions were created with an error: "cannot mount /tmp/dst"

Can somebody tell my what i'm doing wrong or how i could fix this?

Thank you in advance for your help and your patience :-)
It's not quite that simple, because PINN does not install image files.
Did you do much customisation to your Raspbian/raspios image?
The simplest way would be to start again by installing a fresh copy of Raspbian/Raspios using PINN (along with any other OSes) and then redo all your customisations. But if you have done a lot and can't face repeating that, then have a look at my wiki entry which explains how you can convert an image to a set of PINN installation files that you can then install with PINN.
PINN - NOOBS with the extras... https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=142574

GummiWyrm
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:10 am

Hi all. I'm having issues getting PINN to boot. I'm using a new RPi 4 and it tries to boot (i get to the rainbow gradient screen), but it sits idle on that forever. I tried booting with the same image on my RPi 3 and it booted fine, so I suspect there is still some compatibility issue with the 4. Any ideas for trouble shooting?

GummiWyrm
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Re: STICKY: PINN - An enhanced version of NOOBS.

Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:41 pm

I found the issue. I was plugged into the right hdmi port when I should have been plugged into the left. The boot troubleshooting thread suggested that the right port will only display that rainbow screen on certain 4K60 monitors, though mine is a standard 1080p60. So my issue is resolved and I'm booting now. Thanks!

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