DanielSilva
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Re: Ubuntu

Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:08 pm

I've been using Ubuntu for some time but i'm switching back to the good ol' Debian. Ubuntu has become waaaay too bloated these days and i end up spending more time removing cr*p from it than installing and working on it.
Besides Debian is starting to support other arches other than x86 pretty well.

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Re: Ubuntu

Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:36 am

Quote from DanielSilva on September 6, 2011, 21:08
Besides Debian is starting to support other arches other than x86 pretty well.

Debian has long been one of the distributions with the most arches supported. It's hard to compare with *bsd, since what they consider a different arch is differnt, but Debian is working on a BSD port as well. (x86 only last time I checked)

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Re: Ubuntu

Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:02 am

Quote from Lob0426 on September 6, 2011, 18:50
Well for me it means removing Ubuntu and installing debian on my laptop and nettop. I do not want to waste the time, on an operating system that does not want to waste the time. Considering that ARM is the fastest growing architecture in the market, especially in the Linux market, I would think it would be in their interest to at least look into it.
ARM is in almost all of the tablets and just about all of the phones, I don't know I must be missing something here?

Why unintall Ubuntu on desktop? Because the Raspi is running Debian? Not seeing the connection.

It's only the Armv6 architecture that has been dropped by Ubuntu, not Arm support for more modern architectures. I can see their point - to maintain a whole different (and old) architecture requires build servers, target hardware which all needs maintaining, engineers to check faults etc, all for a for a relatively low (at the moment :) ) userbase.
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Re: Ubuntu

Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:13 am

I installed Ubuntu so i could become familiar with it before I had the Raspi. Now it appears I wasted my time. I do not have it on my desktop, laptop and nettop. So now I am two months behind where I thought I was. I will probably leave it under a virtual machine on my desktop, or maybe not.

I do believe Ubuntu is making a mistake here. So they had a distro in 9.x but now it just isn't there?
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DanielSilva
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Re: Ubuntu

Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:22 pm

Well tbh there isn't much difference between distro's regarding how theey act and behave, specially between distro's that are so close ( Ubuntu IS based on Debian after all ).
If you know how to use Gnome/KDE with Ubuntu you'll now how to use Gnome/KDE on Debian, even the software management is exactly the same and most differences between them don't matter to 80% of users and unless you want to fiddle with the innards of each system it won't matter what they use.

Marcus
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Re: Ubuntu

Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:36 pm

Quote from Lob0426 on September 8, 2011, 02:13
I installed Ubuntu so i could become familiar with it before I had the Raspi. Now it appears I wasted my time. I do not have it on my desktop, laptop and nettop. So now I am two months behind where I thought I was. I will probably leave it under a virtual machine on my desktop, or maybe not.

I do believe Ubuntu is making a mistake here. So they had a distro in 9.x but now it just isn't there?
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obarthelemy
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Re: Ubuntu

Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:40 pm

"So they had a distro in 9.x but now it just isn't there?"
Yep, a bit like almost nobody in the x86 world is supporting the 8086 nor 80286 CPUs anymore, everybody assumes at least 80386, or even, Pentium.
ARMv6 is fairly old, though stuff in the embedded gets old more slowly than in the desktop space. I think the first v7 chips were leased end of 2008

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Re: Ubuntu

Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:01 pm

If you already have a Ubuntu install, you can install LXDE on it as well, and choose which desktop you get at startup (I assume you can still do this - I can on my Ubuntu with Unity I think)

I think LXDE may the desktop of choice for Raspi.

Most of the differences in distros is down to the desktop they use. Under the skin they are pretty similar.
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Re: Ubuntu

Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:33 pm

LightDM will support any WM, although my choice would be not mixing the two since LXDE still uses the "old" 2.x GTK branch while Ubuntu is already using the GTK 3.x branch on the latest version. It _shouldn't_ be a problem but the less the mixing, the least chances there are of lib incompatibilities down the road, i've been bitten in the arse too many times before ( specially with upgrade problems ) because of them.

My choice for the Raspi will be building a custom debian based system with no dm ( or SLiM at most ), running Openbox with a simple panel ( LXpanel for now ).

rec9140
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Re: Ubuntu

Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:35 pm

File a comment against the bug at:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/848154

To get support of V6 ARM on their builds, the demand alone here should surpass the beagleboards at 3x the price.

SpaceHobo
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Re: Ubuntu

Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:27 am

Perhaps if the Raspberry Pi worked completely and properly with all free software, this effort would have more traction.

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abishur
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Re: Ubuntu

Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:48 pm

You forgot the <flame> </flame> flags there SpaceHobo.

I'm not sure if I really understand what your point is, but there's no such thing as any piece of hardware that works "completely and properly with all free software".
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Re: Ubuntu

Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:05 pm

Quote from SpaceHobo on September 16, 2011, 10:27
Perhaps if the Raspberry Pi worked completely and properly with all free software, this effort would have more traction.

What effort are you talking about? Are you still whinging about the possible non-open source drivers and the closed GPU code? Haven't you got bored with that yet? Have you not read any of the reasoning that has been patiently explained in other threads?

Whatever you say won't influence the decision by Broadcom on whether they open source or not. That's a commercial decision - if you can present a commercial argument for it, go for it (it's unlikely, many people have tried but the numbers and risk don't add up). But since the Raspi team have no say in the matter don't post your argument or your whinges here.
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Re: Ubuntu

Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:15 pm

Quote from abishur on September 16, 2011, 15:48
You forgot the <flame> </flame> flags there SpaceHobo.

I am disappointed that people see this point as incendiary, as it seems perfectly obvious to me. The need for proprietary software to use a Raspberry Pi is not a flame: it is an acknowledged fact. I acknowledge that it may be a necessary compromise if your goals are to get this tiny board out at a particular price point in a particular time frame with a particular set of corporate contacts and given a pre-existing amount of amazing work done.

I'm not dismissing any of those points. I just wish people didn't react to disappointment about the drivers with responses like "You're a pragmatism-hating zealot" or "it is morally justified to promote secrecy in an educational project." I just wish that people would acknowledge that this is less than optimal, and at least try to investigate a way out of the situation.

I'm not sure if I really understand what your point is, but there's no such thing as any piece of hardware that works "completely and properly with all free software".

Sorry, I meant that all features were available without using proprietary software. Ubuntu is a free software OS, and they'd probably be better motivated to support an outdated ARM core if it had the benefit of it being on a platform that did not require proprietary drivers.

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Re: Ubuntu

Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:17 pm

Quote from jamesh on September 16, 2011, 16:05
Quote from SpaceHobo on September 16, 2011, 10:27
Perhaps if the Raspberry Pi worked completely and properly with all free software, this effort would have more traction.

What effort are you talking about? Are you still whinging about the possible non-open source drivers and the closed GPU code? Haven't you got bored with that yet? Have you not read any of the reasoning that has been patiently explained in other threads?

I'm not whinging, no. I'm simply looking at the situation as a user of free software and suggesting that this may be one obstacle to convincing a free OS to support your platform. I think you're projecting your own aggression, and I find it discourteous.

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Re: Ubuntu

Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:42 pm

Quote from SpaceHobo on September 16, 2011, 16:17
Quote from jamesh on September 16, 2011, 16:05
Quote from SpaceHobo on September 16, 2011, 10:27
Perhaps if the Raspberry Pi worked completely and properly with all free software, this effort would have more traction.

What effort are you talking about? Are you still whinging about the possible non-open source drivers and the closed GPU code? Haven't you got bored with that yet? Have you not read any of the reasoning that has been patiently explained in other threads?

I'm not whinging, no. I'm simply looking at the situation as a user of free software and suggesting that this may be one obstacle to convincing a free OS to support your platform. I think you're projecting your own aggression, and I find it discourteous.

Interesting. Discourtesy. Hmm. How about someone refusing to accept what they have been told a multitude of times. Is that discourteous?

I'm not an aggressive person, expect, apparently, in the face of irrational intransigence. Especially after having to write stuff down time after time after time for people who seen incapable of understanding basic commercial pressures.

Cannonical (Ubuntu, a free OS) are not stupid, or as intransigent. That's why they have their restricted areas repos, and also why Debian have non-free. They accept there are commercial aspects to software that they cannot get round. Same applies here. We have a commercial aspect that cannot be got round. (I speak here as a Raspi person, not a Broadcom person).
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Re: Ubuntu

Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:51 pm

Quote from jamesh on September 16, 2011, 16:42
Interesting. Discourtesy. Hmm. How about someone refusing to accept what they have been told a multitude of times. Is that discourteous?

I'm not sure that that would necessarily fit the definition. I can see how willful obstinance can be interpreted as rude, though.

I'm not an aggressive person, expect, apparently, in the face of irrational intransigence. Especially after having to write stuff down time after time after time for people who seen incapable of understanding basic commercial pressures.

Cannonical (Ubuntu, a free OS) are not stupid, or as intransigent. That's why they have their restricted areas repos, and also why Debian have non-free. They accept there are commercial aspects to software that they cannot get round. Same applies here. We have a commercial aspect that cannot be got round. (I speak here as a Raspi person, not a Broadcom person).


I agree that both Debian and Ubuntu have made compromises. I have also agreed that the Raspberry Pi project has made compromises. I only ever said I was dismayed by these compromises, but people (such as yourself) have repeatedly attributed a position to me that I have never expressed -- to the point of irrational intransigence.

Debian and Ubuntu have explicit goals to support and spread software freedom. This is in the charter of each project (though Debian's non-free is explicitly unsupported, while Ubuntu's "restricted" area is supported officially). I pointed out that this one fact that runs contrary to Ubuntu's goals could be a hindrance. That is all.

The Raspberry Pi project is asking Ubuntu to take a particular course of action in re-tooling their ARM support. I have asked nothing of either project, but simply suggested a possible reason why it might be more difficult to convince them. You seem to have interpreted this as -- what, exactly?

Do you think I'm suggesting a course of action for Raspberry Pi? The people attacking me on this forum seem to think I'm telling them to not make any Raspberry Pis, or to take some unspecified action against Broadcom. I have never done any such thing. I am going on record right now that I am excited about this project and intend to purchase some, proprietary drivers or no. Does that clarify anything for you at all?

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Re: Ubuntu

Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:10 pm

I'm not whinging, no. I'm simply looking at the situation as a user of free software and suggesting that this may be one obstacle to convincing a free OS to support your platform.

There seems to be some misinformation flying around here. You're talking as if the R-pi team was talking to Ubuntu about supporting the ARM6 so that the r-pi could use it, then the Ubuntu team was disinclined to support ARM6 at all because of a single closed source item on a random board that isn't even in production yet. A closed source item which, I might add, doesn't affect their product on the whole or their targeted end users and this continued bickering over it is increasingly asinine.

The truth of the matter is that Ubuntu decided not to support the ARM6 entirely apart from the r-pi because it was older technology. I can't speak for other software developers, but I don't plan the current support of my programs based on the possibility of a future product that may or may not be popular. Now if the r-pi takes off the way we expect it to, then I have no doubt that a company that has it's own closed source items will not withhold supporting another product that has a closed sourced item.

Spacehobo, even if you didn't mean to a (pissed off) administrator and a (bemused) moderator have both independently felt you were being out of line. I certainly want to hear what you have to say, buy I strongly encourage you to consider how you are saying it.

Remember that the ultimate goal of the r-pi is to further the education of children. As such it doesn't matter one iota if a single piece of this board is open source! The goal is an affordable computer for children, *not* an open source no profit margin board for hobbyists. If that means the r-pi team uses a GPU with a closed source binary blob to keep the $25 price point, then we, the fortunate hobbyists getting a cheap yet powerful board, need to be happy with what they're providing. If what they're providing is a deal breaker than go get something that fits your needs, if it's not a deal breaker than stop giving them flak about it already!

Now, let's see if we can't get this thread back on track before it spirals into an all out pissing match and we close the thread entirely.
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Re: Ubuntu

Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:12 pm

Is there anyone here who is planning on grabbing one of the older versions of Ubuntu that supports ARM6 because they're that big of Ubuntu fans, or is everyone planning on swapping to another distro that still supports ARM6 with its most current release?
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stuporhero
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Re: Ubuntu

Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:04 pm

I'm headed personally for whatever has ARM6. Maybe a cross-post to the Ubuntu forums or Ubuntu brainstorm about this project (if it hasn't been done already) will help here if people are interested.

obarthelemy
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Re: Ubuntu

Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:10 pm

Same. Not sure which, but bonuses to Debian (for being to grandfather of them all), and to the default Pi one (for having the largest community ?)
I'm thinking the actual distro does not matter much, because everything is so customizable anyway, I'm pretty sure we can morph any distro into another one (with a lot of hard work though). The right config and the right apps/utils are more important. Maybe one distro will shine by getting that... more right ?

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Re: Ubuntu

Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:15 pm

I've taken it on myself to release the Ubuntu brainstorm idea here: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28526/, it's down to the RasPi and Ubuntu community now!

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Re: Ubuntu

Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:17 am

There seems to be some misinformation flying around here. You're talking as if the R-pi team was talking to Ubuntu about supporting the ARM6 so that the r-pi could use it, then the Ubuntu team was disinclined to support ARM6 at all because of a single closed source item on a random board that isn't even in production yet. A closed source item which, I might add, doesn't affect their product on the whole or their targeted end users and this continued bickering over it is increasingly asinine.

I'm not sure who's "bickering" here. I made a post suggesting that a free OS project might be more inclined to make an effort if the result meets their published goals of furthering free software. I did not state that the proprietary driver was a deal-breaker to anyone. This thread is full of people attacking a straw man they've stuck a "SpaceHobo" name tag on.

Spacehobo, even if you didn't mean to a (pissed off) administrator and a (bemused) moderator have both independently felt you were being out of line. I certainly want to hear what you have to say, buy I strongly encourage you to consider how you are saying it.

Remember that the ultimate goal of the r-pi is to further the education of children. As such it doesn't matter one iota if a single piece of this board is open source!

You're beating a dead horse. I don't understand why you folks are all the ones who keep dragging out these peculiar claims that secrecy will assist education completely out of the blue and yet you try to paint me as the unreasonable one. I think you should consider how you present your case, because it comes across as vicious and fanatical.

People wishing the R-Pi had a VGA port get nods of agreement and talk of unfortunate compromise. People wishing that the R-Pi didn't require proprietary drivers get mercilessly flamed. Is this the community you want to build here? Is this how you would teach the children who receive these devices to interact? I have to say I think I'm more disappointed in the behavior of the participants of this forum than I could ever be in the project's licensing problems.

The goal is an affordable computer for children, *not* an open source no profit margin board for hobbyists.

This is entirely off-topic, and completely tangential to anything I was saying in this thread. Please, can we make this conversation about the Raspberry Pi and not about Bad Things You Pretend SpaceHobo Is Saying?

SpaceHobo
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Re: Ubuntu

Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:27 am

Quote from abishur on September 16, 2011, 20:12
Is there anyone here who is planning on grabbing one of the older versions of Ubuntu that supports ARM6 because they're that big of Ubuntu fans, or is everyone planning on swapping to another distro that still supports ARM6 with its most current release?

Quite frankly, for a system of this size and characteristics, I think that Debian is perfectly suitable. I believe 9.04 was the last Ubuntu release to support armel (correct me if I'm wrong), and that is no longer supported (no security updates will be forthcoming, which is a deal-breaker for me). Debian is similar enough to Ubuntu (especially the less GUI pieces) for this kind of hardware, I think, and their track record with supporting older architectures is good.

I mean, take a look at this group that was still working on 680x0 support in 2006!

http://lists.debian.org/debian.....00005.html

If I remember correctly, Debian supported m68k until around 2002 or so (woody). That's a pretty good track record for supporting older architectures.

jamesh
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Re: Ubuntu

Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:40 am

Quote from SpaceHobo on September 17, 2011, 01:17
I'm not sure who's "bickering" here. I made a post suggesting that a free OS project might be more inclined to make an effort if the result meets their published goals of furthering free software. I did not state that the proprietary driver was a deal-breaker to anyone. This thread is full of people attacking a straw man they've stuck a "SpaceHobo" name tag on.

You're beating a dead horse. I don't understand why you folks are all the ones who keep dragging out these peculiar claims that secrecy will assist education completely out of the blue and yet you try to paint me as the unreasonable one. I think you should consider how you present your case, because it comes across as vicious and fanatical.

People wishing the R-Pi had a VGA port get nods of agreement and talk of unfortunate compromise. People wishing that the R-Pi didn't require proprietary drivers get mercilessly flamed. Is this the community you want to build here? Is this how you would teach the children who receive these devices to interact? I have to say I think I'm more disappointed in the behavior of the participants of this forum than I could ever be in the project's licensing problems.


No-one has claimed that secrecy will help education - we have claimed that this device would only be possible if some code remains closed source. This product helps education. We hope.

I'm not flaming people who wish the Raspi didn't have prop drivers. *I* wish is had non-prop drivers. I'm not flaming myself, I'm am flaming those who continue to bring up the subject, even though it has been explained many times why it has to be done like this. It's not perfect, but it is necessary. A pragmatic approach, that is generally accepted . There are many questions that need answering on this forum, and to continually be drawn back to this argument is a waste of time when it has been so fully explained already. That and continually having to state 'No not till November', 'no you can't have an alpha' 'yes, we ship worldwide'.

Stop reading problems in to peoples comment when there are none. You seem to be the only one who is 'disapointed' with the attitude, and you are the one who started it all by not listening to what people were saying, or by deliberately bringing up the subject again. And please, don't call us vicious or fanatical. That's not very pleasant, and so far from the truth. We haven't said that about you.
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