jamesh
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:26 am

PeterO wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:09 pm
Puffergas wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:56 pm
"Documents" = Yes, however "Documents" is the Documents FOLDER only.
See below: Files and folders (except the Documents FOLDER) is duplicated.
You beat me to it. Is seems the "fix" was not tested or widely announced otherwise the "not fixedness" would have been reported :roll:
And the files that are still shown on HDMI-2 desktop have some generic icon.
PeterO
Software changes/fixes happen all the time, if they are vaguely interesting I sometimes add something about them to the updates thread, but no guarantees.

Been reported to spl.
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jamesh
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:28 am

OK, the files on the desktop are a reflection of the desktop folder, so if you want different things on the second display, you need to specify a different desktop folder. Go to the HDMI-2 tab in appearance settings, and set a different folder.

Read only file systems can be selected using Raspi configuration utility - see Performance tab. Overlay filesystem is a read only SD filesystem, but with a ramfs overlay over the top - so you can make changes in the ram disk, but they are never stored to SD card. This can turned on or off at any time, so you can make changes to your SD card when required, then 'write protect' it by turning on the overlayfs. Tab also allows you to write protect the boot partition, which is not part of the overlayfs.
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spock
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:32 am

jamesh wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:28 am
Read only file systems can be selected using Raspi configuration utility - see Performance tab. Overlay filesystem is a read only SD filesystem, but with a ramfs overlay over the top - so you can make changes in the ram disk, but they are never stored to SD card. This can turned on or off at any time, so you can make changes to your SD card when required, then 'write protect' it by turning on the overlayfs. Tab also allows you to write protect the boot partition, which is not part of the overlayfs.
very cool! thanks!

where do you publish such new features? where do i have to look to not miss such things in the future?

jamesh
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:46 am

spock wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:32 am
jamesh wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:28 am
Read only file systems can be selected using Raspi configuration utility - see Performance tab. Overlay filesystem is a read only SD filesystem, but with a ramfs overlay over the top - so you can make changes in the ram disk, but they are never stored to SD card. This can turned on or off at any time, so you can make changes to your SD card when required, then 'write protect' it by turning on the overlayfs. Tab also allows you to write protect the boot partition, which is not part of the overlayfs.
very cool! thanks!

where do you publish such new features? where do i have to look to not miss such things in the future?
There will be a blog post on this weeks release soon. The blog is the best place to find out about stuff, or just try stuff and see what happens!
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PeterO
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:00 pm

jamesh wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:28 am
OK, the files on the desktop are a reflection of the desktop folder, so if you want different things on the second display, you need to specify a different desktop folder. Go to the HDMI-2 tab in appearance settings, and set a different folder.
Every other system I've used has ONE desktop folder and ONE desktop. I that too hard to understand ?
PeterO
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Interests: C,Python,PIC,Electronics,Ham Radio (G0DZB),1960s British Computers.
"The primary requirement (as we've always seen in your examples) is that the code is readable. " Dougie Lawson

spock
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:06 pm

jamesh wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:46 am
spock wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:32 am
jamesh wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:28 am
Read only file systems can be selected using Raspi configuration utility - see Performance tab. Overlay filesystem is a read only SD filesystem, but with a ramfs overlay over the top - so you can make changes in the ram disk, but they are never stored to SD card. This can turned on or off at any time, so you can make changes to your SD card when required, then 'write protect' it by turning on the overlayfs. Tab also allows you to write protect the boot partition, which is not part of the overlayfs.
very cool! thanks!

where do you publish such new features? where do i have to look to not miss such things in the future?
There will be a blog post on this weeks release soon. The blog is the best place to find out about stuff, or just try stuff and see what happens!
oh! so this feature hasn't really been offically be announced yet?

it's easy to miss such things in the blog though. maybe you could do a raspbian release notes page.
for example one like blender has: https://www.blender.org/download/releases/2-81/
or maybe a way to only show the raspbian release related blog posts?

jamesh
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:47 pm

PeterO wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:00 pm
jamesh wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:28 am
OK, the files on the desktop are a reflection of the desktop folder, so if you want different things on the second display, you need to specify a different desktop folder. Go to the HDMI-2 tab in appearance settings, and set a different folder.
Every other system I've used has ONE desktop folder and ONE desktop. I that too hard to understand ?
PeterO
Not difficult to understand, but exceptionally difficult to implement given the underlying LXDE desktop architecture that we use (desktops are like a file manager). If you know of a way of getting round the problem, please let us know or send a pull request upstream.

You can point the second desktop at /dev/null I expect if you don;t want to use an actual desktop.
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:43 pm

spock wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:06 pm
it's easy to miss such things in the blog though. maybe you could do a raspbian release notes page.
Boggle... I at least read the title of new blog posts every day. If it's about a release (or anything else I might be interested in), I read the whole post. The blog is probably the best place to announce newly release features.

spock
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:19 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:43 pm
spock wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:06 pm
it's easy to miss such things in the blog though. maybe you could do a raspbian release notes page.
Boggle... I at least read the title of new blog posts every day. If it's about a release (or anything else I might be interested in), I read the whole post. The blog is probably the best place to announce newly release features.
but not everyone reads it every day and once they are gone from the front page it's a bit cumbersome to find them.

it would be nice if the raspbian release posts could be marked with a special category that can be filtered.

Puffergas
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:44 pm

jamesh wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:28 am
so if you want different things on the second display, you need to specify a different desktop folder. Go to the HDMI-2 tab in appearance settings, and set a different folder.
I can see having a different desktop folder being useful. I like to compartmentalize. Thanks! :D

jbudd
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:09 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:58 pm
rin67630 wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:21 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:06 pm
This appears to be a commercial installation type of use case.
No, it is not: In my case, I am retired and am working benevolently for an association promoting environmental measurement stations.
The stations are deployed at homes of people, who are willing to provide a station on their own expenses just for the benefit of the community.
Nobody is making any profit from the hardware or the time spent to assist the less computer literate members.
My main aim is to make the stations as cheap and as easy to setup and maintain as possible, I am proud to have achieved quite much.

Many, many other environmental projects are doing the same, the Raspberry Pi is here first choice to do the job.
Fair enough, but even so, should we be writing software for other people for free when we are massively overloaded with work anyway. As above, this is possibly all stuff that could be done by the 'community' and if it were, we would always look favourably on merging it to our own repos if asked.
The cheapest Raspberry Pi kit is perhaps a Pi, an SD card and some sort of Android tablet.
Defaulting to an access point - not confined to headless setup - would be valuable in circumstances where price is a major bar to getting into computing and WiFi is not available?
Possibly not a mainstream use case but surely well within the core aims of the RPF?

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rin67630
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:23 pm

jbudd wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:09 pm
... would be valuable in circumstances where price is a major bar to getting into computing and WiFi is not available?
No only price!
Also convenience, when the Pi operates outdoors or at a location, where you will get a lot of pain trying to provide the classical desktop periphery trio: monitor, keyboard and mouse.

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PeterO
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:35 pm

Puffergas wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:44 pm
jamesh wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:28 am
so if you want different things on the second display, you need to specify a different desktop folder. Go to the HDMI-2 tab in appearance settings, and set a different folder.
I can see having a different desktop folder being useful. I like to compartmentalize. Thanks! :D
Until you try and drag and drop something between them in which case what actually happens seems unpredictable !
PeterO
Discoverer of the PI2 XENON DEATH FLASH!
Interests: C,Python,PIC,Electronics,Ham Radio (G0DZB),1960s British Computers.
"The primary requirement (as we've always seen in your examples) is that the code is readable. " Dougie Lawson

jamesh
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:37 pm

jbudd wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:09 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:58 pm
rin67630 wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:21 pm

No, it is not: In my case, I am retired and am working benevolently for an association promoting environmental measurement stations.
The stations are deployed at homes of people, who are willing to provide a station on their own expenses just for the benefit of the community.
Nobody is making any profit from the hardware or the time spent to assist the less computer literate members.
My main aim is to make the stations as cheap and as easy to setup and maintain as possible, I am proud to have achieved quite much.

Many, many other environmental projects are doing the same, the Raspberry Pi is here first choice to do the job.
Fair enough, but even so, should we be writing software for other people for free when we are massively overloaded with work anyway. As above, this is possibly all stuff that could be done by the 'community' and if it were, we would always look favourably on merging it to our own repos if asked.
The cheapest Raspberry Pi kit is perhaps a Pi, an SD card and some sort of Android tablet.
Defaulting to an access point - not confined to headless setup - would be valuable in circumstances where price is a major bar to getting into computing and WiFi is not available?
Possibly not a mainstream use case but surely well within the core aims of the RPF?
I think the main problem with stuff like this is, whilst it would be useful to have, as you say its not mainstream. This means that with the limited resource we have available, it comes behind the more mainstream stuff. And unfortunately, there is ALWAYS more mainstream stuff. WHich is why if anyone fancies having a go at this (or any stuff they think is useful), they are more than welcome. We like good ideas, especially when others do the work that we don't have time to do.
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Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed.
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ejolson
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:45 pm

jbudd wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:09 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:58 pm
rin67630 wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:21 pm

No, it is not: In my case, I am retired and am working benevolently for an association promoting environmental measurement stations.
The stations are deployed at homes of people, who are willing to provide a station on their own expenses just for the benefit of the community.
Nobody is making any profit from the hardware or the time spent to assist the less computer literate members.
My main aim is to make the stations as cheap and as easy to setup and maintain as possible, I am proud to have achieved quite much.

Many, many other environmental projects are doing the same, the Raspberry Pi is here first choice to do the job.
Fair enough, but even so, should we be writing software for other people for free when we are massively overloaded with work anyway. As above, this is possibly all stuff that could be done by the 'community' and if it were, we would always look favourably on merging it to our own repos if asked.
The cheapest Raspberry Pi kit is perhaps a Pi, an SD card and some sort of Android tablet.
Defaulting to an access point - not confined to headless setup - would be valuable in circumstances where price is a major bar to getting into computing and WiFi is not available?
Possibly not a mainstream use case but surely well within the core aims of the RPF?
You might be right about the tablet. Since they are landfill within a couple years after purchase, there must be millions of them waiting to be fished out of the bin and repurposed as a display device for a Pi. Digital televisions, on the other hand, retain value for much longer and are therefore less likely to be found in the tip.

On the other hand, it likely works better for a child to plug their Pi into the family television and get along without further expense. Then again, there may be people living the nomadic lives of the homeless who would find a tablet-Pi combination a way to retrain for work. In this context it is possible a more-focussed skill-centered outreach would give better results. Though similar to the existing educational focus, what software would make the Pi easier to deploy as an environment to learn programming at a community center, shelter, library or hostile?

How about a way to run the server for Piserver from the Pi 4B for small-scale deployments of 10 or less?
Last edited by ejolson on Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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rin67630
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:17 pm

jamesh wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:37 pm
If anyone fancies having a go at this (or any stuff they think is useful), they are more than welcome. We like good ideas, especially when others do the work that we don't have time to do.
I have promised to try and I'll do my best.

timrowledge
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:11 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:00 pm
timrowledge wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:03 pm
Ok, but what are you going to do next week?
I don't expect you'll get an answer to that.
Sorry, failed joke. As “ok, so you’re going to do that list today, what’s the list for tomorrow?”
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

timrowledge
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:15 pm

ejolson wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:45 pm
You might be right about the tablet. Since they are landfill within a couple years after purchase, there must be millions of them waiting to be fished out of the bin and repurposed as a display devices for a Pi.
Really? I hope that’s not actually the case. I have an original iPad and a 6 y.o. iPad Air, both still fully functional and in constant use. Both on original battery too. Are OtherBrand(™) tablets that much less resilient?
Making Smalltalk on ARM since 1986; making your Scratch better since 2012

ejolson
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:35 am

timrowledge wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:15 pm
ejolson wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:45 pm
You might be right about the tablet. Since they are landfill within a couple years after purchase, there must be millions of them waiting to be fished out of the bin and repurposed as a display devices for a Pi.
Really? I hope that’s not actually the case. I have an original iPad and a 6 y.o. iPad Air, both still fully functional and in constant use. Both on original battery too. Are OtherBrand(™) tablets that much less resilient?
I suspect other owners are less savvy with technology. I observed recently at work that faculty who are experts in numerical computation request new office computers much less often than the rest. It's almost a paradox, but I understand it this way: Those lacking in physical fitness need the best bicycle available just to keep up with an athlete on a Raspberry Pi.
Last edited by ejolson on Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:18 am

ejolson wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:35 am
... an athlete riding on a Raspberry Pi.
Sorry, my Pi has just been repurposed to replace my mind, which was totally boggled by the concept of Pi-based athletics :o :shock: :o :shock: :o
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ejolson
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:03 pm

davidcoton wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:18 am
ejolson wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:35 am
... an athlete riding on a Raspberry Pi.
Sorry, my Pi has just been repurposed to replace my mind, which was totally boggled by the concept of Pi-based athletics :o :shock: :o :shock: :o
In my opinion, one of the reasons to teach computer literacy in the schools is because productive use of technology in the workplace depends more on the skill of the human than on the expense of the office computer.

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rin67630
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:30 pm

ejolson wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:03 pm
In my opinion, one of the reasons to teach computer literacy in the schools is because productive use of technology in the workplace depends more on the skill of the human than on the expense of the office computer.
+++
And those, who have got the skills to think industrial and combine IT with electronics are invaluable!

jamesh
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:57 pm

Last few posts off topic, please keep to the topic in hand - makes it much easier for me to collate stuff. May delete some of the above at some stage, so don't be surprised.
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pagenotfound
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:21 am

My wishlist:

1. Anything that reduces card wear. The Overlay File System is great. Please keep and maintain it.

However, sometimes that's a little too radical. Currently on one of my Pi4s I have various tmp, var, log and cache directories on tmpfs. It kind of works but it's still not an optimal solution. So I'd be grateful for any ideas you come up with.

2. An option for the SD card copier to enlarge the boot partition. I directly updated to Buster and I tend to shy away from messing with partitions except enlarging the last one on a disk which doesn't seem very dangerous. BTW, the SD card copier's progress bar is so thin I can barely tell whether something is happening or not.

3. Anything that can use the VC4/VC6 graphics for something other than games and watching videos (FFMPEG using the GPU without too many magic incantations would be nice, though).

Maybe Broadcom has something cool lying around, for example a machine learning/neural network library. ARM has a NN library which would be nice to have in the official repos, too.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Future of raspberry pi - software related

Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:32 am

pagenotfound wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:21 am
My wishlist:

1. Anything that reduces card wear. The Overlay File System is great. Please keep and maintain it.

However, sometimes that's a little too radical. Currently on one of my Pi4s I have various tmp, var, log and cache directories on tmpfs. It kind of works but it's still not an optimal solution. So I'd be grateful for any ideas you come up with.
Hardware fix for that...don't use an SD card. Here's an example of how not to add a lot of bulk...https://www.newegg.com/p/0RM-003B-005J2 ... lsrc=aw.ds

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