laurent
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:38 am

spooker wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:21 am
jamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:41 am
spooker wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:45 pm
Is the usb specification violation finally fixed in 1.2? The foundation should have made an exception for the mess they created and announce the changes in the new revision right away.
What mess? Are you talking about the massively overblown click bait articles about the USB C power problem? Its a complete non issue except for those people with power supplies that cost three times the pi itself, or those people who get money from clicks.
or the raspberry foundation who will provide a new revision to fix the mess and does not make an announcement in order to get rid of the first batch of broken pis first.
Broken ? :lol: :lol: :lol:
My broken Pi is working very very well, I hope that each of devices I will own to be as broken as my Pi.
And thanks to regular updates, it works better and better with time, since I own it.

With customers like you, the position of the foundation of waiting the first batch of 1.1 to be sold before officially saying anything is unfortunately perfectly understandable.

Heater
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:46 am

spooker,

If you have one of those supposedly broken Pi could please send it to me? I'm sure I can manage with it just fine. Thank you.
Last edited by Heater on Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

jamesh
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:18 pm

spooker wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:21 am
jamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:41 am
spooker wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:45 pm
Is the usb specification violation finally fixed in 1.2? The foundation should have made an exception for the mess they created and announce the changes in the new revision right away.
What mess? Are you talking about the massively overblown click bait articles about the USB C power problem? Its a complete non issue except for those people with power supplies that cost three times the pi itself, or those people who get money from clicks.
or the raspberry foundation who will provide a new revision to fix the mess and does not make an announcement in order to get rid of the first batch of broken pis first.
1. It's not a mess. That's what you seem to think, but what you think is wrong. Sorry.
2. The first batch? How big does a production run need to be before batch becomes the wrong word? 1M, 2M, 3M? I think we're past 2M Pi4's sold so far. I'm pretty sure if they were 'broken', sales would be a tad lower than that.
3. They are not broken, they just don't work with a very specific sort of power supplies, which cost much more than the official supply, and the PI itself. Millions of people simply cannot all be wrong.

Note, I'm not saying this is not a fault on the board - it is - just that the effect of this fault is miniscule compared to the market.
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W. H. Heydt
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:46 pm

spooker wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:33 pm
Note, I'm not saying this is not a fault on the board - it is - just that the effect of this fault is miniscule compared to the market.
let's stay on the same frequency here. As you say this is a fault and I will not buy a faulty board for whatever reason when a fixed one is coming , even if the effect is minor.
In that case....you must not buy very many electronic devices at all.

hippy
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:47 pm

spooker wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:33 pm
let's stay on the same frequency here. As you say this is a fault and I will not buy a faulty board for whatever reason when a fixed one is coming , even if the effect is minor.
If a product has a fault which does not affect me I would happily buy it. Which seems to be the case for millions of people who have bought a Pi 4B.

jamesh
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:39 pm

spooker wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:33 pm
Note, I'm not saying this is not a fault on the board - it is - just that the effect of this fault is miniscule compared to the market.
[/quote]

let's stay on the same frequency here. As you say this is a fault and I will not buy a faulty board for whatever reason when a fixed one is coming , even if the effect is minor.
[/quote]

I would put money on almost every electronics board out there having some sort of defect that gets fixed over time. Do you have the same rules about software? Because I can guarantee that every single software package you are using has faults in it. However, you never see them. Or at least, usually never see them!

Put another way, does this problem affect you? If not then you will see no difference whatsoever between the current board and any future board with the USB-C power fix. This is simply the way of the world. We are not unique. Every had a car recall? Proof if it were needed that even safety critical systems (my Honda had a recall at 8 years old to do with the airbags) can have faults when they are first released. This USB power issue affects almost no-one in comparison.
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jahboater
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:52 pm

spooker wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:33 pm
I will not buy a faulty board for whatever reason when a fixed one is coming , even if the effect is minor.
That's daft. The effect is that you have to buy a cheaper PSU to make it work - cant be bad!

emma1997
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:31 pm

I think hysteria over that resistor issue may be why the recent street price drop. Anticipation of this new rev or maybe just oversupply. So a bonus of the hype let's me pick up a couple more1g and 4g for not much over MSRP or used ones a lot less.

I am keeping fingers crossed the video/usb3/wifi problems are software bugs and not hardware.

jamesh
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:44 pm

emma1997 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:31 pm
I think hysteria over that resistor issue may be why the recent street price drop. Anticipation of this new rev or maybe just oversupply. So a bonus of the hype let's me pick up a couple more1g and 4g for not much over MSRP or used ones a lot less.

I am keeping fingers crossed the video/usb3/wifi problems are software bugs and not hardware.
What change in street price? News to me! There is no oversupply, we cannot make the things fast enough. Every one we make is sold. So much so that the supply of 3B's has dwindled as all production capacity was on 4B. Production has shifted slightly to restock the 3B's. Quite a lot of juggling going on!

And what video/USB3/Wifi problems? Almost certainly software, whatever they might be. Links to github issues would be the best way on indicating where your problems are, I can then see how we are dealing with them.
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emma1997
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:05 pm

At first release they were about double list on Ebay etc. Within a month or so only about $15 more. BO and bid 1g and 4g. Stayed the same for months. Then few weeks back, not long after buzz started about the big apple PSU 'disaster', prices dropped to $5-$10 over which is hard to resist. Lots more pre-owned start to appear sometimes for crazy low price.

Maybe coincidence, maybe Deep Pi Conspiracy. You be the judge!

So apparently catching up to demand and not so much oversupply.

The problems mentioned are well known to any browsing this forum. Nothing unique to me, nothing fatal and improving with updates so I'm sure they are working on it. I'm limited in net access so won't be signing up with the gits anytime soon. Thankfully there are hundreds of customers and many Pi workers on this for which I am happy.

Patience is a virtue (although I don't feel that virtuous before caffeine fix... haha).

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PeterO
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:15 pm

emma1997 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:05 pm
At first release they were about double list on Ebay etc.
So nothing to do with the real pricing then, just greedy people trying to make a fast buck !
PeterO
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Heater
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:59 pm

emma1997,
At first release they were about double list on Ebay etc. Within a month or so only about $15 more.
So what you are saying is that idiots were happy spend a lot of money on a new product from whatever ebay sharks where supply was short. As it would be because they had only just started to make them. Rather than wait a bit and pay the normal price.

Then the shark's price dropped as Pi 4 became easily available.

Sounds like the long queue of dick brains I found waiting outside an Apple store at 6am the day some new iPhone was released.

This has nothing to do with reality.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

emma1997
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:11 pm

Unfortunately I'm stuck in the real one so, yes, you guys have described me to a t (except maybe the apple part, lol).

That first one did help give me a huge jump instead of waiting a month from overseas to save 2 dollars or driving 60mi to Cambridge Microcenter for even less savings. I more than made up for it since and have half dozen now for what some people I know paid for a couple.

Heater
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:46 pm

emma1997,

I'm not sure what you are saying there.

Of course if one lives on the South Pole and wants a new Pi as soon as it is released, I'm sure some shark will be happy to get you one and you are happy to pay the inflated price accordingly.

Which of course has nothing to do with the supposed problems with any Pi.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

emma1997
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:27 pm

Spoken by a fellow who does not have even one yet? Or maybe finally grabbed one recently? ( your honor... I move to question the expert testimony... lol ) Anyway they are a dime a dozen now and grow on trees and more fun than a barrel of monkeys so all's good.

Heater
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:45 pm

emma1997,
Spoken by a fellow who does not have even one yet?
As it happens you are right. I do not. They have been on sale in our local consumer mega-store for ages. When I feel the need I will get down there and buy one. https://www.verkkokauppa.com/fi/product ... wrT05W6P0Z

Not cheap. But hey, this is Finland, near the North Pole.

I fail to see what my personal choices have to do with the discussion here though.
Anyway they are a dime a dozen now and grow on trees and more fun than a barrel of monkeys so all's good.
That was exactly my point!

All is good.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

emma1997
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:59 pm

Just surprised you were so sure supply had nothing to do with Pi problems.

I was shocked top King of Links and guy I learned so much from last few years did not run out to get in line/setup tent at midnight to be first when doors opened. Maybe not that odd because I wasn't so hot on them myself originally. Just part of a job. Then Pi4 came along and I saw practical potential first time.

Definitely went overboard and will probably get more if a new rev is known to be available. I remember the disappointment with Pi3b until Pi3b+ popped up.

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Imperf3kt
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:26 pm

PeterO wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:15 pm
emma1997 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:05 pm
At first release they were about double list on Ebay etc.
So nothing to do with the real pricing then, just greedy people trying to make a fast buck !
PeterO
Scalpers are not necessarily "greedy people out to make a quick buck"

This is a stereotype and I find it somewhat offensive.
If it were not for scalpers in Japan, there are a lot of products I simply could not have bought without actually travelling there in person. (an impossibility as I can't go on planes for medical reasons)
55:55:44:44:4C
52:4C:52:42:41

Heater
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:36 pm

emma1997,
Just surprised you were so sure supply had nothing to do with Pi problems.
Well... I think we are talking about different things now.

This thread has been full of crap like supposed "usb specification violation". Which may or may not be true. But who cares anyway? It has no detrimental effect. And pretty much all products fail to meet every detail of every specification they try to adhere to. Business as usual.

I can well imagine supply is tight when a new version of a popular thing arrives. That is not a Pi "problem". It's a symptom of getting things right for many years. So much so that people want more!
King of Links and guy I learned so much from last few years
Why thank you.

I don't know about King of anything. If anything I have ever said has been helpful to anyone, in any small way, I am happy. I learn more here than I put in. It's a good deal I think.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Gavinmc42
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:49 pm

Since the Pi4 I have found I am doing more stuff on the Pi than doing stuff with the Pi.
Stuff I never did on a PC.
A few missing resistors and non final software has not stopped me from doing this.
In fact I have learned more about Linux and software that runs on Linux and compiling said software than with any other PC or Pi.

The hardware works well enough to replace a PC for me at home.
The software has some limitations but there is still plenty to learn getting around those limits and they will improve with time.

A narrow focus on a single power supply issue ignores the wider picture.
Tunnel vision?
Version 1.2? A big deal? Not really, I still use A's and B's and most of the other Pi's since.
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cjan
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:40 am

so, after a lot of discuss, does v1.2 exist?
and, whats improve?

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ehem
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:51 am

cjan wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:40 am
so, after a lot of discuss, does v1.2 exist?
and, whats improve?
To the first, "yes". To the second, presently unknown.

hippy
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:54 am

cjan wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:40 am
so, after a lot of discuss, does v1.2 exist?
and, whats improve?
It does appear it was Fake News that version 1.2 was Fake News. As to what's changed or new in 1.2; those who would know still don't seem to be saying.

jamesh
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:18 am

emma1997 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:05 pm
At first release they were about double list on Ebay etc. Within a month or so only about $15 more. BO and bid 1g and 4g. Stayed the same for months. Then few weeks back, not long after buzz started about the big apple PSU 'disaster', prices dropped to $5-$10 over which is hard to resist. Lots more pre-owned start to appear sometimes for crazy low price.

Maybe coincidence, maybe Deep Pi Conspiracy. You be the judge!
By calling it street price you gave the impression that there was a lower price on the street than the official price. But you actually mean a higher price, due to typical demand/supply economics.

The number you SHOULD use is the price from us. At that is $35, $45, or $55 + tax depending on RAM. That is the only reliable price information. And that has not changed since launch.

As for conspiracies, no, we don't do that. Because we have fixed pricing (and remember the Pi4 is made under licence so we get a licence fee for each sold, and that's it), the only sensible approach is just to sell as much as possible. So any talk of restraining production for some nefarious reason is nonsense.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
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chwe
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Re: New Pi 4B v1.2?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:57 am

jamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:18 pm
...
2. The first batch? How big does a production run need to be before batch becomes the wrong word? 1M, 2M, 3M? I think we're past 2M Pi4's sold so far. I'm pretty sure if they were 'broken', sales would be a tad lower than that.
3. They are not broken, they just don't work with a very specific sort of power supplies, which cost much more than the official supply, and the PI itself. Millions of people simply cannot all be wrong.

Note, I'm not saying this is not a fault on the board - it is - just that the effect of this fault is miniscule compared to the market.
2. call it simply first sold revision?

3. You tried to fulfill specification and you failed, so in terms of "fulfills USB-C specification" they are broken. And millions of people can be wrong just ask a history teacher..

So from all I read, there's a new board revision out, so why it's so hard to tell the users what changed and what not? Even when the broken USB-C implementation was not fixed yet? Other SBC boardmakers do this as well:
https://github.com/OLIMEX/OLINUXINO/tre ... 0revisions
https://wiki.radxa.com/News/2019/6/rock ... dates-2019
http://wiki.friendlyarm.com/wiki/index. ... t_Versions
https://wiki.odroid.com/odroid-xu4/hardware/hardware (even when there was a change by mistake, like a green PCB instead of a blue one)
jamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:44 pm
And what video/USB3/Wifi problems? Almost certainly software, whatever they might be. Links to github issues would be the best way on indicating where your problems are, I can then see how we are dealing with them.
Maybe this one?
https://www.cnx-software.com/2019/11/29 ... esolution/
https://www.enricozini.org/blog/2019/hi ... esolution/
https://twitter.com/assortedhackery/sta ... 3898029061

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