Mark_F
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File Manager just dying

Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:51 pm

Interesting little issue tonight. When opening the file manager it opens OK but then just dies.

This behaviour started after I did apt-get update and apt-get upgrade. Here's the log in case anyone can throw any light on the issue.

Code: Select all

Start-Date: 2019-11-16  17:38:38
Commandline: apt-get upgrade
Requested-By: pi (1000)
Upgrade: rpi-eeprom-images:armhf (2.2-1, 2.3-1), raspberrypi-ui-mods:armhf (1.20190924, 1.20191023), lxpanel-data:armhf (0.10.0-2+rpt6, 0.10.0-2+rpt7), libfm4:armhf (1.3.1-1+rpt8, 1.3.1-1+rpt9), libfm-modules:armhf (1.3.1-1+rpt8, 1.3.1-1+rpt9), libfm-extra4:armhf (1.3.1-1+rpt8, 1.3.1-1+rpt9), libgs9:armhf (9.27~dfsg-2+deb10u2, 9.27~dfsg-2+deb10u3), rpi-eeprom:armhf (2.2-1, 2.3-1), libfm-gtk4:armhf (1.3.1-1+rpt8, 1.3.1-1+rpt9), lxplug-ejecter:armhf (0.6, 0.7), gtk2-engines-pixflat:armhf (0.2, 0.3), ghostscript:armhf (9.27~dfsg-2+deb10u2, 9.27~dfsg-2+deb10u3), libgs9-common:armhf (9.27~dfsg-2+deb10u2, 9.27~dfsg-2+deb10u3), arandr:armhf (0.1.9-2+rpt8, 0.1.9-2+rpt10), libfm-data:armhf (1.3.1-1+rpt8, 1.3.1-1+rpt9), pipanel:armhf (1:1.2, 1:1.3), lxpanel:armhf (0.10.0-2+rpt6, 0.10.0-2+rpt7), libfm-gtk-data:armhf (1.3.1-1+rpt8, 1.3.1-1+rpt9)
End-Date: 2019-11-16  17:38:54
I'm at a loss and can only assume that the apt-get upgrade is the root of the problem. It matters no whether or not "arm_64=1" is in config.txt or not.
I'm rather hoping that someone can point me in the right direction here.
Thanks folks.
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B.Goode
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Re: File Manager just dying

Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:54 pm

This recent thread seems similar and has a positive outcome -
https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 0#p1567000

Mark_F
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Re: File Manager just dying

Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:50 pm

Thank you for that. A quick apt-get dist-upgrade seems to have cured the problem. Dunno why my searching didn’t throw that up though.
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RossDv8
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Re: File Manager just dying

Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:13 pm

I don;t know if this is a good idea, or a bad idea, but I usually run this script once a day, and most days there is something updated.
So far - I've been lucky with it, and nothing has failed or broken (except a reboot issue when one particular USB drive is connected).

Code: Select all

#!/bin/bash
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get full-upgrade -y
sudo apt-get autoremove -y
sudo reboot
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Mark_F
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Re: File Manager just dying

Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:43 pm

RossDv8 wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:13 pm
I don;t know if this is a good idea, or a bad idea, but I usually run this script once a day, and most days there is something updated.
So far - I've been lucky with it, and nothing has failed or broken (except a reboot issue when one particular USB drive is connected).

Code: Select all

#!/bin/bash
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get full-upgrade -y
sudo apt-get autoremove -y
sudo reboot
Like you, I dunno whether or not that'd be a good idea or not. If it was me I'd be doing some sort of backup before running the script though.

Seeing as I worked in large system administration for many years I'm more of a "do it manually" type of person... I have a HEAP of Windows centric stuff and have been bullied into Win 10 and this auto stuff annoys me almost to the point of violence against the machine.
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RossDv8
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Re: File Manager just dying

Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:31 am

I started in Unix, moved to some proprietary operating systems, spent some of the 80's working for IBM, then shifted to cp/m and eventually MSDos and Windows before discovering Linux and moving all our systems and our clients' servers to red hat in 1998.
So I've had a share of the sysadmin stuff too. But I've had two separate lots of three brain injuries at a time. The head space is a little banged up.

Retiring from the industry has allowed me to worry less about stuff I've forgotten, remember a few things I 'thought I knew' and generally have fun that I never really got a chance to have before.

And shell scripting that used to be work, is a whole new experience.
I decided that since I was typing most of those commands every time I wanted to update and / or upgrade my system regularly, I may as well just have one icon on the panel I could click, and have it all automatic from there.

Of course, I had a brain fahrt once and ran it as a cron job at boot....
That was exciting !!!! :oops:

But so far, it doesn;t seem to have broken anything that I would not break manually..
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Mark_F
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Re: File Manager just dying

Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:56 am

Today I had a bit of a play. Made a new Rasbian Full SD card and didn't do the updates when it first booted. File manager worked fine.
Did a not so quick sudo apt-get update and sudo apt-get upgrade and the file manager dying caper started again. Did a sudo apt-get dist-upgrade and the proper behaviour returned. I don't know which package the problem lies with though.
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Re: File Manager just dying

Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:40 am

I've posted before that Raspbian's pcManFm suffers from "digital dementia"........could it be a "developing complication" from that? :mrgreen:

thanks to your warnings am foregoing this week's update/upgrade cycle.... ;)
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RossDv8
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Re: File Manager just dying

Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:43 am

One of the reasons I always do 'apt-get full-upgrade' rather than apt-get upgrade.

I might be wrong, but as far as i know, full-upgrade and dist-upgrade do essentially the same thing, it's supposedly to do with a newer apt or whatever. But as I understood it,

apt-get upgrade replaces the installed version with a newer version if one is available, but doesn't mess with old stuff related to the old version.

apt-get full-upgrade (or apt-get dist-upgrade) replaces the installed version with a newer version if it is available, but then removes any old stuff from the previously installed version that might be incompatible.

That might be over simplified, or it might even be wrong. But if it is right it might explain the dying file manager caper.

As an aside, I installed Thunar in Raspbian because it does a few things differently from pcmanfm but is still lightweight. I did NOT replace pdmanfm,because that is where the raspbian Desktop lives. I just added Thunar as well.
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rpdom
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Re: File Manager just dying

Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:42 am

RossDv8 wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:43 am
apt-get upgrade replaces the installed version with a newer version if one is available, but doesn't mess with old stuff related to the old version.

apt-get full-upgrade (or apt-get dist-upgrade) replaces the installed version with a newer version if it is available, but then removes any old stuff from the previously installed version that might be incompatible.

That might be over simplified, or it might even be wrong.
Yeah, it's wrong.

upgrade will install a new version of software as long as that does not require the removal of any other installed software or installing new software that isn't currently installed.

dist-upgrade/full-upgrade will remove other installed software if required, or will install any extra new software that is required by the upgrade of the existing package.

For example if the following software was installed:
aaa1 version 1.0.0
bbb2 version 1.0.1

and a new version of aaa1 (1.0.2) is available and requires bbb2 version 1.0.2 which is also available, upgrade will install both the new versions.

if a new version of bbb2 (1.0.3) is available and requires the removal of aaa1 because it replaces that function, or it requires the installation of ccc9 (1.0.3) and ccc9 is not installed, update will not upgrade bbb2.
But full-upgrade/dist-upgrade will uninstall aaa1 or install ccc9 (depending on the situation) and upgrade bbb2 as requested.

Basically just "upgrade" is usually pretty safe, but full/dist may cause issues if you depend on certain software (very unlikely though).
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Re: File Manager just dying

Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:15 am

Our docs recommend using

Code: Select all

apt update
apt full-upgrade
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RossDv8
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Re: File Manager just dying

Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:37 am

Our docs recommend using
Code: Select all

apt update
apt full-upgrade
Thank you James. I wondered if using full-upgrade could cause any problems.
I read somewhere in my debian stuff when apt was being discussed, that 'apt-get full-upgrade' is preferential to 'apt full-upgrade' because apt-get does more to check/resolve dependencies.
Does the RPF consider this to be a fact or a myth?
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rpdom
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Re: File Manager just dying

Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:08 am

RossDv8 wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:37 am
I read somewhere in my debian stuff when apt was being discussed, that 'apt-get full-upgrade' is preferential to 'apt full-upgrade' because apt-get does more to check/resolve dependencies.
Does the RPF consider this to be a fact or a myth?
It's apt-get dist-upgrade, not full-upgrade. The apt command has full-upgrade (because it is newer and the name is more descriptive of what it does).

Both apt and apt-get now handle dependencies just as well as each other. I believe apt offers you choices if it finds a dependency that doesn't work easily, while apt-get will just choose what it thinks is best and go with that.
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Re: File Manager just dying

Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:28 am

rpdom wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:08 am
Both apt and apt-get now handle dependencies just as well as each other. I believe apt offers you choices if it finds a dependency that doesn't work easily, while apt-get will just choose what it thinks is best and go with that.
I believe that is the outcome. The design difference is that apt-get is optimised for script use, while apt is optimised for interactive use. That means that, in unexpected situations (like the recent change in release status of Buster), apt will ask what to do, while apt-get may just fail. So apt is usually the better choice for running from a console (command line) without a script.

AFAIK (but untested by me) both commands (apt and apt-get) can use both the old (eg dist-upgrade) and new (eg full-upgrade) sub-commands. In the case quoted there is no functional change. If anyone knows any different, please correct me!
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Re: File Manager just dying

Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:45 am

I just want to say thanks for this thread so I know I wasn’t the only one experiencing this bug (and so I know it’s not some malware I got lol). Was really worried for a second

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Re: File Manager just dying

Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:57 am

davidcoton wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:28 am
AFAIK (but untested by me) both commands (apt and apt-get) can use both the old (eg dist-upgrade) and new (eg full-upgrade) sub-commands. In the case quoted there is no functional change. If anyone knows any different, please correct me!
I just tested that. It looks like both apt-and apt-get accept both options now.
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Re: File Manager just dying

Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:21 am

Just to clarify, or maybe to muddy things up further:

apt-get upgrade - Install newer versions of all installed packages, but don't install new dependencies.
apt-get dist-upgrade - as above, but also check for new dependencies.

apt upgrade - install new versions, check for new dependencies, but don't do anything that will result in a package getting removed.
apt full-upgrade - Do everything, even if it means a package will get removed.

apt-get is safer to use in scripts, apt is intended for interactive use.

Both apt and apt-get have full-upgrade and dist-upgrade, but the documentation for apt only mentions full-upgrade and the other way around for apt-get. I believe they are equivalent anyway. Some people assume that 'dist-upgrade' is for moving to a new release, so 'full-upgrade' is a little more descriptive of what actually happens.

So here's what went wrong here - pcmanfm and libfm were updated. pcmanfm also go a new dependency. People who ran apt-get upgrade and read the text would've seen that the pcmanfm update was held back. Then pcmanfm and libfm are no longer compatible with each other and segfaults ensue.

pcmanfm should have a stricter (versioned) dependency on libfm to help prevent this from happening. But also, people shouldn't run apt-get upgrade in general because it will cause other issues even if we do everything right on our end. For example, it breaks package transitions (https://wiki.debian.org/PackageTransition).

Long story short, use anything but 'apt-get upgrade'.
RossDv8 wrote: I read somewhere in my debian stuff when apt was being discussed, that 'apt-get full-upgrade' is preferential to 'apt full-upgrade' because apt-get does more to check/resolve dependencies.
Does the RPF consider this to be a fact or a myth?
Citation needed

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Re: File Manager just dying

Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:39 pm

RossDv8 wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:13 pm
I don;t know if this is a good idea, or a bad idea, but I usually run this script once a day, and most days there is something updated.
So far - I've been lucky with it, and nothing has failed or broken (except a reboot issue when one particular USB drive is connected).

Code: Select all

#!/bin/bash
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get full-upgrade -y
sudo apt-get autoremove -y
sudo reboot
Personally I am in the camp of do it at the command line, and actually read what it plans on updating. Reasoning is:

* it behind a decent firewall so security is not so critical that I instantly need every update
* it is not broken, so I don't absolutely need the latest update (change is not always good)
* sometimes things go wrong, like the recent dependency issue

Not saying I would have caught it for sure, but at least I would have had a chance. Typically update once a week, unless I am trying to fix something.

Auto-anything is bad in my books. I never use the "-y" switch.

If you upgrade interactively, read what it is planning to update before you let it start, and then actually check if there are any issues doing the upgrade, things generally go better. I'm lazy and want to spend my time doing stuff with the computer, rather than fixing it.

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Re: File Manager just dying

Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:16 am

If you upgrade interactively, read what it is planning to update before you let it start, and then actually check if there are any issues doing the upgrade, things generally go better. I'm lazy and want to spend my time doing stuff with the computer, rather than fixing it.
I've got a Raspbery Pi and I keep my data on the SSD. So at worst, if my upgrades screw something up I can usually have a fresh microSD set up in a few minutes. Not that this is the ideal situation, but for example, I have been experimenting with Manjaro for a few days, and while there are some things manjaro does better than raspbian, there are good reasons for using raspbian.

This morning though, for no apparent reason and NOT after any updates/upgrades, manjaro flatly refused to find my 5GHz wifi connection. A quick card swap and I was back to raspbian, which still connects to 2.4 OR 5GHz.

One of the joys of the raspberry Pi. Screwing something up doesn;t necessarily screw anything up :D
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Mark_F
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Re: File Manager just dying

Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:47 pm

Thank you one and all for your insight.
I have now erased apt-get update and apt-get upgrade from my vocabulary and from now on I will use apt update and apt full-upgrade... :D
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RossDv8
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Re: File Manager just dying

Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:04 pm

It has been an interesting little discussion and I learned a few things that corrected stuff I 'thought' I knew :D
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until you fart ...

bluenote
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Re: File Manager just dying

Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:55 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:15 am
Our docs recommend using

Code: Select all

apt update
apt full-upgrade
I think you're talking about this: https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... pdating.md

Which to me wasn't clearly up to date (and because I've been away from raspbian for a couple of versions) ... which is to say I'm trying to suggest a little verbiage in there to say "this is the old way, and this is the new way, which you need to use or things will break".

Or, if I'm looking in the wrong place could you point out where this is documented?
Thanks

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