Almost everyone running Linux on an Intel-compatible desktop computer had to replace the vendor-supported Windows operating system with one of the many well-supported Linux distributions. While you can buy servers with vendor-support for Linux, around here it is not uncommon to replace the preinstalled Linux image before deployment.sal55 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:06 pmYet that low-cost buys you a 1500MHz quad-64-bit processor with 1000-4000 MB of memory and with dozens of 64-bit registers. It is a very powerful machine (the first one I wrote compilers on and for was 2.5MHz, 8-bit with 0.016MB memory).
It what way would it break compatibility? Is ARM64 different from x64 in that a processor executing in 64-bit mode cannot also be running 32-bit binaries? Does it need to be all-32-bit or all-64-bit for every piece of software?
The fact that the 4GB version of Pi 4B is so popular attests to how many people care about better performance.rin67630 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:38 pmHas someone got a feeling on how many Pi users really need increased performance?
Most of the users, who use the Pi for education, programming and tinkering (as it should be) will probably use a Pi 3B+ at no more than 20%, am I wrong?
You may use it for multimedia purposes, which is possible, but that is IMHO not for what it should be optimized.
OK, the browser is awfully slow, but who, from the above mentioned users, really cares?
That is a rather fundamental point now a days.In terms of supporting computer-literacy based curriculum reform, because of the amount of information on Stack Overflow, this and other websites, it is difficult to teach programming using a computer that doesn't have a fast web browser.
...and all the while I've always thought the last one was "smart phone", instead of Pi Zeroejolson wrote: ....with regard to what people need, my understanding is that the essentials are food, shelter, water and a Pi Zero....
Follow these instructions to get a 64-bit environment--or use raspbian-nspawn-64 mentioned above--before installing tcc. (Manjaro or Gentoo won't give you APT if that's the package manager you prefer.)sal55 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:02 pmafter doing 'rpi-update', it rebooted so that 'uname -a' reports 'aarch64'.
However, 'getconf LONG_BIT' reported '32'. But then, 'lscpu' says 'aarch64'. gcc however still compiles to 32-bits, and there doesn't seem to be a way to update it. A newly downloaded tcc said its '-m64' option was not implemented.
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(pi64)[email protected]:~ $ getconf LONG_BIT 64 (pi64)[email protected]:~ $ tcc -m64 hello.c (pi64)[email protected]:~ $ file a.out a.out: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, ARM aarch64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib/ld-linux-aarch64.so.1, stripped
Yes & yes. You can generate aarch64 ELFs that run directly on 32-bit Raspbian userland + aarch64 kernel (cf. gcc -static -static-libgcc).Will this kernel run a 64-bit ELF executable as a 64-bit process? Will there be a 64-bit libc_so.6 library? If so, then eventually I can wrote ELFs directly and don't need to care about anything else, but for now I need to rely on existing tools like gcc, as and tcc.
OP is writing and maintaining his/her own compiler, so it's not that simple.
These days I work on hobbyist language stuff like compilers and interpreters. One of my languages is a neat alternative to C. It would have been nice to make them work on the RPi machines (but my work there is hampered by not liking to work on Linux or grapple with X11).LTolledo wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:33 pmso simply just boils down to:
1. stop whining and contribute to the development of 64-bit OS for Raspberry Pi
2. stop whining and wait for 64-bit OS (or your choice) to be available when its available
3. stop whining
or, if impatience sets it... you can always build your own and not rely on (the charity of) others.
Did you miss my post? It's right above yours and the point is you should use the arm_64bit Raspbian you already configured.
My recollection is that 64-bit capable Intel-compatible computers shipped with 32-bit versions of Windows for many years. I don't think very many people worried about that or felt any more cheated than usual. As far as experimental goes, Linux supported 64-bit processors long before Windows and has officially supported 64-bit ARM since late 2012. It is, therefore, not surprising that 64-bit Linux is quite stable on all 64-bit capable versions of Raspberry Pi including the latest 4B.sal55 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:59 amIs it whining when someone buys a machine advertised as having a "64-bit processor" but in reality everything is 32-bit unless you download experimental 64-bit versions that may or may not work. (I paid extra for my machine because it came with everything needed to be up and running immediately, except the included SD card with the promised OS was blank!)
I am probably rather old and jaded, but I think the popularity of the Pi4B4 has more to with people not knowing how to judge how much machine is enough for what they want to do than any actual need or desire for better performance.
FIrst off, Gentoo is not Debian based, so there will not be "apt" or "apt-get". Raspbian will probably be 32 bit for quite a while. That does not mean you are out of options with your Raspberry Pi 4. Ubuntu Mate is in the works and will most likely be 64 bit since the previous versions are; it is also Debian based meaning "apt-get" will be available. I doubt it will be a whole year before Ubuntu Mate is ready, I believe it will be more like several months. I do not advise that you attempt to install Ubuntu on your Pi 4 as you lack the experience to deal with the problems that will need to be overcame to make it workable. It is best to stick with Raspbian in your case for the time being and wait for the official release of Ubuntu Mate. The Pi 4 is still very early in it's life cycle and there will soon be far more available for it. Patience is of virtue as everything will be sorted in due time.sal55 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:30 pmI just bought a 64-bit RPI4 to supercede my RPI1 from 2012 or so. I wanted to port my 64-bit language tools to it.
After quite a lot of preliminary work on a PC, I then discovered that the Raspbian I was using was a 32-bit system!
I'd like to ask what the point is of selling a 64-bit machine (quad 64-bit even) when most software that goes with it is still 32-bit? I understand the RPi has been 64-bit from at least RPI3 too.
From looking around, there appear to be some half-finished 64-bit OSes. I just tried Gentoo, but compared with Raspbian (which makes the RPi4 look like a PC almost) it's rather poor. (Strange behaviour with USB drives; 'apt-get' command apparently missing).
I also had a go at Ubuntu, but the article that described the early version omitted to provide a login name and password (but that is not a GUI version, which is needed to mitigate the problem of HDMI overscanning that affects all OSes I've tried, and is completely immune to config changes or fixes).
So, any news of when a full 64-bit OS might be stable? If it's a year, fine, I'll send this RPI4 back or put it on the shelf, but I just wished this was properly advertised.
Another thing you do not seem to understand is the difference between Marketing and Engineering.
The 3B, 3B+ and 4B really do have 64-bit processors and there are many choices of 64-bit Linux distributions which run on them. I've been switching a 64-bit Gentoo SD card back and forth between a Pi 3B+ and a 4B and it works great in either one.Milliways wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:14 amAnother thing you do not seem to understand is the difference between Marketing and Engineering.
Marketing is the bane of the Engineering department (and I am sure vice versa, if the number of times Marketing complained to the Board about me is indicative).
I haven't looked at 64-bit ARM code so far. Are the instructions 64 bits as well? If so, it will take two cycles to load each instruction instead of one for each 32-bit instruction (or two 16-bit instructions when running in Thumb mode).
Really, where?Recent PIs have been advertised as using 64-bit processors.
Here: https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspbe ... w-from-35/ ?Heater wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:20 amsal55,Really, where?Recent PIs have been advertised as using 64-bit processors.
I don't even see the number 64 appearing here:
https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/ra ... 4-model-b/
It is buried away in the tech spec:
https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/ra ... fications/
But that is not advertising.
Personally I'm quite happy with a 32-bit OS for now. The 100% compatibility with my older systems is very important to me.Here are the highlights:
A 1.5GHz quad-core 64-bit ARM Cortex-A72 CPU (~3× performance)
The link the the RAM itself is indeed 32bits wide, but this is a massive oversimplification of how accesses are made - which are usually 128bit bursts IIRC. It's really not as simple as saying "it takes two memory cycles".
I haven't looked either, but the common practice is to keep instructions the same size, just increase the register and data size.
You can easily roll your own 42-bitter with a RISC-V implementation though you won't be able to label it "RISC-V".
I spent many years working on 36-bit systems.
It would be remiss of me not to mention that I still maintain and use a 39 bit machine. It may be in a museum, but it still counts (Pun intended )
That is obviously the answer to everything. 1024 times better than 32-bit, though not quite as "good" as 64-bit.