Fraoch
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Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:25 pm

jerrm wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:44 am
Fraoch wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:59 pm
Unfortunately this won't work in my Pi4, it causes severe instability (stalled booting, locking up the desktop, locking up the USB bus), but it works perfectly in my Pi3B+. I suspect it's the JMicron controller in the enclosure. USB 3.0 support in the Pi4 is new and I'm hoping various bugfixes will address this.
Have you set the quirks option as described in the sticky? https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... 8&t=245931
First thing I did when I encountered problems. It didn't make any difference and it's not needed on the 3B+ which boots from it now.
Pencoed-made Model 1B, Samsung memory
2B 1.1
3B+
4B 2GB

Fraoch
Posts: 145
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Location: Cambridge, Ontario, Canada

Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:26 pm

scaramonga wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:11 am
I have a spare NVME M2 Drive (128Gb) (5 pin from notch) from an old laptop here. Best way to connect?

Thought about this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07MV6Z9ZJ/ ... _lig_dp_it

?
It's the one reported to be working well here:

https://jamesachambers.com/raspberry-pi ... sh-drives/
Pencoed-made Model 1B, Samsung memory
2B 1.1
3B+
4B 2GB

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rin67630
Posts: 568
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Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:36 pm

pica200 wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:47 am
The health of SSDs depends on how much data you have written.
Wearing is not my worry.
Hmm, if they put 4 bit per cell, that means that each cell stores 16 analog voltage levels per cell, how long will it last, until a drift occurs?
I will not bet for many years...

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rin67630
Posts: 568
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Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:43 pm

jmmec wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:16 am
Would you happen to know if the Industrial versions would deal better with sudden power loss scenarios where it's not possible to have UPS
Very probably not. Industrial SD is (supposed to be) less sensitive to own failures, basically because they have less bits per cell.
Data corruption resulting from power-loss is a different scenario.

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rin67630
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Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:48 pm

Fraoch wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:28 pm
There are also "high endurance" SD cards, these are usually MLC and will survive more writes.
If you concern is to survive more writes, you just should overdimension your SD. The wear levelling algorithms on every current SD will distribute the writes over the whole card.

jerrm
Posts: 198
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 7:35 pm

Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:56 pm

Fraoch wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:25 pm
First thing I did when I encountered problems. It didn't make any difference and it's not needed on the 3B+ which boots from it now.
All but one really old JMicron bridge has been OK for me with quirks, was hoping the same for you.

Pi4 USB3 has issues though. I originally assumed it was generic Linux issues, but as you have discovered adapters that are OK under PC Linux, fail on the Pi. I haven't found a working UAS adapter with Trim support yet.

Pretty much anything works with the 3B+. The problems only seem occur with the Pi4's USB3.
Last edited by jerrm on Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fraoch
Posts: 145
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Location: Cambridge, Ontario, Canada

Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:57 pm

rin67630 wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:48 pm
Fraoch wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:28 pm
There are also "high endurance" SD cards, these are usually MLC and will survive more writes.
If you concern is to survive more writes, you just should overdimension your SD. The wear levelling algorithms on every current SD will distribute the writes over the whole card.
Hmm, I did that for the SSDs on my "big" computer, haven't done that for my SD cards or SSDs in my Pis. Thanks for the reminder.

I'm using a Transcend High Endurance card in a security camera. It was expensive but it's still working. Just thought it might be helpful to those who keep burning out SD cards.

I'm sure an SSD would outlast even those high-endurance SD cards though.
Pencoed-made Model 1B, Samsung memory
2B 1.1
3B+
4B 2GB

Fraoch
Posts: 145
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Location: Cambridge, Ontario, Canada

Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:06 pm

jerrm wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:56 pm
Fraoch wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:25 pm
First thing I did when I encountered problems. It didn't make any difference and it's not needed on the 3B+ which boots from it now.
All but one really old JMicron bridge has been OK for me with quirks, was hoping the same for you.

Pi4 USB3 has issues though. I originally assumed it was generic Linux issues, but as you have discovered adapters that are OK under PC Linux, fail on the Pi. I haven't found a working UAS adapter with Trim support yet.

Pretty much anything works with the 3B+. The problems only seem occur with the Pi4's USB3.
Thanks for the advice. It just behaves really really oddly.

  • if I insert it after the Pi has booted, it crashes LXDE every time. I'm left with Openbox and everything I try to select results in an I/O error.
  • I did manage to boot with it inserted with USB quirks enabled, but not as a boot device
  • When I tried with it as a boot device, it often freezes at random points in the boot process or I end up with a frozen desktop or frozen USB system (i.e. it will not recognize or use any device I plug into USB)
Maybe I should report this as a bug but I see there's a closed bug for this controller which says everything works well with USB quirks enabled.

It's too bad, it's a nice little package and the SSD is surprisingly fast.
Pencoed-made Model 1B, Samsung memory
2B 1.1
3B+
4B 2GB

pica200
Posts: 140
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Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:21 pm

rin67630 wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:36 pm
Wearing is not my worry.
Hmm, if they put 4 bit per cell, that means that each cell stores 16 analog voltage levels per cell, how long will it last, until a drift occurs?
I will not bet for many years...
I don't think SSDs are good backup drives in the first place ;) But if you use them regularly the SSD firmware will handle flash cells becoming less readable by overwriting them again. It's not an issue with never 3D-NAND since that's made in a fairly big process. Before 3D-NAND existed they tried going below 20 nm if i remember correctly and that already caused issues with cells becoming less readable over time reducing performance. But as said this was solved by using a bigger process again and stacking layers. You can always go for a SSD with less bits per cell but they cost more. For example the Pro line of SSDs from Samsung.

jerrm
Posts: 198
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Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:55 pm

Fraoch wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:06 pm
Maybe I should report this as a bug but I see there's a closed bug for this controller which says everything works well with USB quirks enabled.

It's too bad, it's a nice little package and the SSD is surprisingly fast.
The drive is likely OK, if you can find a working adapter.

Quirks is a work around, not a real fix. But honestly, for the adapters I've tested under both uas and usb-storage I'm not seeing the uas performance gains I would expect. Pi4 USB3 under performs compared to PC Linux more than the specs would suggest.

I'm hoping there will be a magic USB firmware update, but not really expecting it.

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rin67630
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Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:20 am

Fraoch wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:57 pm
I'm using a Transcend High Endurance card in a security camera.
The security camera is writing large blocks a few times a second.
That is far less than a linux system writing by sectors permanently.

jmmec
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:13 pm

Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:39 pm

rin67630 wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:43 pm
jmmec wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:16 am
Would you happen to know if the Industrial versions would deal better with sudden power loss scenarios where it's not possible to have UPS
Very probably not. Industrial SD is (supposed to be) less sensitive to own failures, basically because they have less bits per cell.
Data corruption resulting from power-loss is a different scenario.
Hmm, I just came across this marketing blurb about the Industrial variant:
In addition, the new SanDisk Automotive and Industrial SD cards support Power Protection capability, which prevents data from being corrupted during a write when the power supply is unstable or unexpectedly lost, which is a feature found on several industrial and enterprise SSDs as well, and is required due to the way in which flash memory is written (see here for a quick refresher)

https://www.anandtech.com/show/11889/sa ... eliability
Maybe the Industrial variants would fare better in my application. I'll try them out - hoping I don't get a fake SD....

superpowter77
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:38 pm

Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:27 am

LTolledo wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:00 pm
These are the ones that I am using, none failed so far

1. Samsung EVO 860 250GB
2. Sandisk SSD Plus 240GB
3. Crucial BX500 120GB
4. Sunbow X3 60GB (this is a cheapo brand, have it for about 6 months now, still ok)

While I think that most SSDs will work out of the box the real problem lies on how the SSD is connected to the RPi

with the SSD as the boot drive the following SATA to USB3.0 adapters worked for me

1. Eluteng Black (the original Eluteng Black)[ ASM1051E/ASM1153 chipset]
2. Eluteng Blue ELT-STAU1-U3--V2-BK-SNL [ASM1053E/ASM1153 chipset]
3. Inateck UA1003 [ASM1051E/ASM1153 chipset]
4. Sabrent EC-SSHD [JMicron chipset]
5. Moyagoa JP-MY-U3-SATA-BK [ASM1051E/ASM1153 chipset]
6. Orico Clear 2.5" HDD SATA to USB3.0 Case/adapter [JMicron chipset]

with the SSD as DATA drive, most adapters and 2.5" HDD to USB3.0 case worked for me.
Did those SATA to USB 3.0 adapters above showed you 6Gb /s under lsusb ?
I have a Samsung EVO 860 and Crucial MX500 500gb & 250Gb , which are current top performers for 2.5 SSD drives. However, haven't been able to get 6Gb /s on any of them, only 3 Gb /s under raspbian buster on my Pi 4.
My current one, ELEGIANT USB 3.0 to SATA, Super Speed USB 3.0 to SATA(ASM1153) works great without any issues, but only runs at 3 Gb /s.
I am getting a new one, StarTech.com SATA to USB Cable - USB 3.0 to 2.5” SATA III , will post results here if I achieve 6 Gb /s.

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rpdom
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Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:09 am

superpowter77 wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:27 am
Did those SATA to USB 3.0 adapters above showed you 6Gb /s under lsusb ?
Where would lsusb show that? Is that in the Product Id like this:

Code: Select all

  idProduct          0x0578 JMS567 SATA 6Gb/s bridge
USB3.0 has a maximum bus speed of 5Gb/s on the Pi 4B, which gives a maximum data transfer rate of 4Gb/s.

I see that my cheap JMicron adaptor shows "Device can operate at SuperSpeed (5Gbps)".

superpowter77
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:38 pm

Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:20 am

rpdom wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:09 am
superpowter77 wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:27 am
Did those SATA to USB 3.0 adapters above showed you 6Gb /s under lsusb ?
Where would lsusb show that? Is that in the Product Id like this:

Code: Select all

  idProduct          0x0578 JMS567 SATA 6Gb/s bridge
USB3.0 has a maximum bus speed of 5Gb/s on the Pi 4B, which gives a maximum data transfer rate of 4Gb/s.

I see that my cheap JMicron adaptor shows "Device can operate at SuperSpeed (5Gbps)".
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 002 Device 002: ID 174c:1153 ASMedia Technology Inc. ASM1153 SATA 3Gb/s bridge
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
Bus 001 Device 003: ID 045e:0800 Microsoft Corp.
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 2109:3431 VIA Labs, Inc. Hub
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub

Correct but I was referring to SATA III speeds which theoretically should reach 6Gb /s over the USB 3.0 ports on the RPI 4b. Cheers!

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rpdom
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Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:22 am

superpowter77 wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:20 am
rpdom wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:09 am
superpowter77 wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:27 am
Did those SATA to USB 3.0 adapters above showed you 6Gb /s under lsusb ?
Where would lsusb show that? Is that in the Product Id like this:

Code: Select all

  idProduct          0x0578 JMS567 SATA 6Gb/s bridge
USB3.0 has a maximum bus speed of 5Gb/s on the Pi 4B, which gives a maximum data transfer rate of 4Gb/s.

I see that my cheap JMicron adaptor shows "Device can operate at SuperSpeed (5Gbps)".
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 002 Device 002: ID 174c:1153 ASMedia Technology Inc. ASM1153 SATA 3Gb/s bridge
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
Bus 001 Device 003: ID 045e:0800 Microsoft Corp.
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 2109:3431 VIA Labs, Inc. Hub
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub

Correct but I was referring to SATA III speeds which theoretically should reach 6Gb /s over the USB 3.0 ports on the RPI 4b. Cheers!
How can you reach 6GB/s on what is essentially a 4Gb/s port?

superpowter77
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:38 pm

Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:46 am

rpdom wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:22 am
superpowter77 wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:20 am
rpdom wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:09 am

Where would lsusb show that? Is that in the Product Id like this:

Code: Select all

  idProduct          0x0578 JMS567 SATA 6Gb/s bridge
USB3.0 has a maximum bus speed of 5Gb/s on the Pi 4B, which gives a maximum data transfer rate of 4Gb/s.

I see that my cheap JMicron adaptor shows "Device can operate at SuperSpeed (5Gbps)".
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 002 Device 002: ID 174c:1153 ASMedia Technology Inc. ASM1153 SATA 3Gb/s bridge
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
Bus 001 Device 003: ID 045e:0800 Microsoft Corp.
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 2109:3431 VIA Labs, Inc. Hub
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub

Correct but I was referring to SATA III speeds which theoretically should reach 6Gb /s over the USB 3.0 ports on the RPI 4b. Cheers!
How can you reach 6GB/s on what is essentially a 4Gb/s port?
I ll run some tests tomorrow with my new adapters are coming tomorrow and will post an update about my results. Seeing is believing. See ya.

superpowter77
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:38 pm

Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:32 pm

superpowter77 wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:46 am
rpdom wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:22 am
superpowter77 wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:20 am

Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 002 Device 002: ID 174c:1153 ASMedia Technology Inc. ASM1153 SATA 3Gb/s bridge
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
Bus 001 Device 003: ID 045e:0800 Microsoft Corp.
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 2109:3431 VIA Labs, Inc. Hub
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub

Correct but I was referring to SATA III speeds which theoretically should reach 6Gb /s over the USB 3.0 ports on the RPI 4b. Cheers!
How can you reach 6GB/s on what is essentially a 4Gb/s port?
I ll run some tests tomorrow with my new adapters are coming tomorrow and will post an update about my results. Seeing is believing. See ya.
WOW, Just Tested it with StarTech.com SATA to USB Cable - USB 3.0 to 2.5” SATA III Hard Drive Adapter - External Converter for SSD/HDD Data Transfer (USB3S2SAT3CB) and my HDparm Disk read speeds went from 112Mb /s to 291.02 Mbps, Disk Write speeds went from 170Mb /s to 232Mb /s and FIO 4k Random read test went from 3865 IOPS (15463 Kb /) to insane 22634 IOPS (90539 Kb /s) almost 6X times faster on last one.
Notice: Highly noticeable improvement overall in loading times, almost instant, opening browser windows, loading Gimp and some other heavy apps were considerably faster including running all other process in general, even the benchmark tests run 66% faster.

Fraoch
Posts: 145
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Location: Cambridge, Ontario, Canada

Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:57 pm

What does lsusb report for the chip?
Pencoed-made Model 1B, Samsung memory
2B 1.1
3B+
4B 2GB

jcyr
Posts: 459
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Location: Atlanta

Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:32 pm

Not sure why you'd want to mess with adapter and SSD when you can pick up a 128 GB USB 3.1 stick for about $20.

https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-MUF-64AB ... B07D7PDLXC
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

takyon
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:05 am

Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:31 pm

jcyr wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:32 pm
Not sure why you'd want to mess with adapter and SSD when you can pick up a 128 GB USB 3.1 stick for about $20.

https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-MUF-64AB ... B07D7PDLXC
Review for 256 GB model says:
Very small drive. Read speeds close to advertised. I got sequential reads on the 256GB drive in the low to mid 290s MB/s. I got write speeds just under 60 MB/s (sequential). I'm getting random read and writes between 13 and 15 MB/s. See screen shot from Crystal Disk Mark 6.
Grab the right SATA SSD + adapter, and you will probably get 300 MB/s read and write, better IOPS, possibly better endurance, and pay less than the $40 256 GB flash drive. You can probably get under the $22 mark as well with an on sale 128 GB SSD.

superpowter77
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:38 pm

Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:36 pm

Fraoch wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:57 pm
What does lsusb report for the chip?
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 002 Device 002: ID 174c:55aa ASMedia Technology Inc. Name: ASM1051E SATA 6Gb/s bridge, ASM1053E SATA 6Gb/s bridge, ASM1153 SATA 3Gb/s bridge, ASM1153E SATA 6Gb/s bridge
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
Bus 001 Device 003: ID 045e:0800 Microsoft Corp.
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 2109:3431 VIA Labs, Inc. Hub
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub

Fraoch
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:53 pm
Location: Cambridge, Ontario, Canada

Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:39 pm

Thank you.

ASMedia chips seem to run well with the Pi4. JMicron chips do not.

I was also noticing that cheaper adapters use JMicron chips, more expensive ones use ASMedia. I have an old adapter with a VIA VL700 ("ID 2109:0700 VIA Labs, Inc. VL700 SATA 3Gb/s bridge") but it's obviously SATA 2.0. A bit slower but works well in the Pi4.

The new adapter I have which does not work in the Pi4 at all reads "ID 152d:0578 JMicron Technology Corp. / JMicron USA Technology Corp." and should be SATA 3.0.
Pencoed-made Model 1B, Samsung memory
2B 1.1
3B+
4B 2GB

superpowter77
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:38 pm

Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:56 pm

takyon wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:31 pm
jcyr wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:32 pm
Not sure why you'd want to mess with adapter and SSD when you can pick up a 128 GB USB 3.1 stick for about $20.

https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-MUF-64AB ... B07D7PDLXC
Review for 256 GB model says:
Very small drive. Read speeds close to advertised. I got sequential reads on the 256GB drive in the low to mid 290s MB/s. I got write speeds just under 60 MB/s (sequential). I'm getting random read and writes between 13 and 15 MB/s. See screen shot from Crystal Disk Mark 6.
Grab the right SATA SSD + adapter, and you will probably get 300 MB/s read and write, better IOPS, possibly better endurance, and pay less than the $40 256 GB flash drive. You can probably get under the $22 mark as well with an on sale 128 GB SSD.
I highly doubt any DRAM-less SSD drives can get close to 300 Mb/s, not even 200 Mb /s. Don't fool yourselves here, if you are looking for performance, a SSD drive with a DRAM controller is a Must. For example, Samsung Evo 860 and Crucial MX500 SSD's are known to be top performers for 2.5 SSD drives on Linux, windows and MacOS.

jcyr
Posts: 459
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:31 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Which SSD to buy for raspberry pi?

Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:05 pm

Running the benchmark on the Pi4 is extremely easy. Run the following command on your Pi:

Code: Select all

curl https://raw.githubusercontent.com/TheRemote/PiBenchmarks/master/Storage.sh | sudo bash
The 128GB Samsung USB 3.1 stick above on the Pi4 gets:

Code: Select all

     Category                  Test                      Result     
HDParm                    Disk Read                 118.24 MB/s              
HDParm                    Cached Disk Read          122.12 MB/s              
DD                        Disk Write                50.1 MB/s                
FIO                       4k random read            2835 IOPS (11340 KB/s)   
FIO                       4k random write           3160 IOPS (12643 KB/s)   
IOZone                    4k read                   17000 KB/s               
IOZone                    4k write                  9675 KB/s                
IOZone                    4k random read            10499 KB/s               
IOZone                    4k random write           11956 KB/s               

                          Score: 2824                                        
Not super fast, but I don't like wire clutter.
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

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