Technocolour
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:36 pm

A big thank you to the perons working with RPi!

I've been playing with my new 4GB toy (and official PSU), and I'm enamoured!

I have some notes though. When installing through NOOBS, my install just kind of hung around at around 100% for a couple of minutes for whatever reason. Is this concidered normal?

I've been thinking of using it to do some C/C++ programming, so of course the logical first step is to install Python libraries, like Tensorflow and Pandas (the latter through apt-get). :P But after doing so, I noticed two cc1 processes (GNU compiler I think?) sucking up 25% of the CPU time each just hanging around, even after shutting down everything but the activity monitor (or what ever it's called). Is that normal?

The other utterly important thing that I've done is to hook my Pi up to my bluetooth speaker, because reasons. But as I did that and selected it to provide audio, my browser playing Soundcloud or Youtube was all silent. A simple restart of the browser cleared that straight up, but should things be like that? (That I need to open my music sources after I pair the speaker, I mean).

Anyhow, I'm having a ton of fun so far!

Heater
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:52 pm

Technocolour,
That I need to open my music sources after I pair the speaker, I mean
Oddly enough I find this kind of thing normal.

For example, on my Windows 10 machine videos will often not play, circling their spinners as if loading then complaining that I should "restart my device"

Turns out that if I power down my bluetooth head set, then power up and reconnect the video starts to play.

My perception is that all this plug and play bluetooth, USB etc has become so complex that nobody has it working properly yet. Not in the Windows or the Linux worlds.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:06 pm

Heater wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:52 pm
My perception is that all this plug and play bluetooth, USB etc has become so complex that nobody has it working properly yet. Not in the Windows or the Linux worlds.
Yup. Nightmare.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:15 pm

No problems using USB on my Pi's. Not with the basic stuff anyway, keyboards, mice, wireless adapters, etc. And the one time I linked a controller to my Pi via Bluetooth that worked Ok. I try to buy what is advertised as working on a raspberry Pi if I can.

EDIT: GPIO connected device s are a whole other story though. I don't expect those to be plug and play though.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:37 pm

Connecting to my Bluetooth speakers from Windows, Android or Chrome OS usually works fine for me (other than the occasional odd application that needs to be manually configured). I just switch audio devices and the sound moves to the selected device (analog/speakers, Bluetooth or HDMI). Works from Chrome browser while playing a video with only a slight delay (seconds).

With my Pi 3B+ running Raspbian, switching on the fly in the browser doesn't work. I need to restart the browser.
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
lots of pop-ups...and where is that annoying music coming from?

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:52 am

jamesh wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:54 pm
djazz wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:07 pm
Reported the OpenGL texture bug to Mesa, hopefully they know what's wrong and how to fix it. https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111052
I think that should really be reported to us, on our linux github repo.
I recently compiled q2pro (https://github.com/skullernet/q2pro) which uses OpenGL 2.1 and all terrain textures are messed up. Maybe related.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:09 am

pfletch101 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:20 pm
IMHO, if you routinely run your Pis without any sort of case, you must like living dangerously! To me, that involves too much risk of random conductive material under it or dropped on it short-circuiting traces on the board, producing "Magic Smoke". :) I keep all my Pis in cases, but usually with the tops open on 'enclosed' cases or (particularly for my workhorse Pis) in sideless enclosures mounted vertically on a bookcase. I am still waiting for my ordered Pi 4, but my various 3s run under variable loads with CPU temps in the 50s. I will almost certainly mount the 4 vertically in a sideless enclosure, at least initially, but I won't be running it as a bare board.
Ya, know...if you take the top off the case, you're just as vulnerable to having random conductive objects dropped on the Pi as if it's not in a case at all. Your admonition reads as a "do as I say, not as I do."

For me...some Pis are in cases. Depends on what I'm going to with them. Others...well there is this nice section of plastic on the top of the PC right next to my desk. It's a convenient place to put a Pi and I have a set of cables (HDMI, power, USB) that run to the adjacent KVM switch. Over quite a number of years, I haven't lost a Pi there yet.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:52 am

It's not just the Pi you may need to protect. I have a couple of rovers with explorer hats attached. The Pi Zero is in a case but the explorer pHat and Powerboost are exposed on a mini black hat hack3r board. I put a plastic difusser on top to keep little fingers away and anything else that may fall on it.
https://1drv.ms/f/s!AjOYwiwlwDtpgrNitzE9mWKSbll5jg

bunklung
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:40 pm

Will the 4 support two displays at 1080/75hz?

Is it possible for both HDMI outputs to support independent sound?

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:50 pm

bunklung wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:40 pm
Will the 4 support two displays at 1080/75hz?

Is it possible for both HDMI outputs to support independent sound?
I think 75hz might be possible, but I have not tried - do not have any monitors that support it I don't think.

At present I don't think we can do independant sound although I am looking at stuff in that area at the moment, so will try and see what is possible.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:01 pm

bunklung wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:40 pm
Will the 4 support two displays at 1080/75hz?
If the monitor advertises it in the EDID, then yes it should be available. We have clipped the max framerate to 85Hz at the moment as the 1080p100/120 modes don't offer any great benefit, but burn a chunk more power for that near-zero gain. It may even feel more sluggish as the GPU is busier trying to render all the frames and ends up getting a little behind.
bunklung wrote:Is it possible for both HDMI outputs to support independent sound?
Not currently, but only limited by the software. We had a discussion the other day over it and it should all be fairly feasible.
CEC likewise is currently limited to a single port.
Use "hdmi_preferred=1" in config.txt to switch both to HDMI1 (default is HDMI0). As James says, he's fixing it at the moment so there is a chance that will change.
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bunklung
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:39 pm

This is great news to know there isn't a hardware limitation in regards to dual sound.

I do see a use case where you have two displays that require independent sound. This would be a dual seat setup for underserved areas. I could see commercial uses too.

Is ARC supported?

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:45 pm

bunklung wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:39 pm
Is ARC supported?
If you are talking about audio input from HDMI, then no.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:10 pm

dom wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:45 pm
bunklung wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:39 pm
Is ARC supported?
If you are talking about audio input from HDMI, then no.
Okay, it's not surprising considering the type of use case you would get from this.

Perhaps for recording audio (microphone) or passing it to the other HDMI port, like passthrough 5.1 etc.

kevinbr
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:03 pm

pi3g wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:43 pm
6) What doc has 8GB? Range is 1,2, or 4GB
I think is was a linked pi3g doc not RPF's doc, they seemed to have some more insider detail, how accurate?
Nice to know I have 2 years to learn the Pi 4 before you give us new versions :lol:
That might not be enough time :oops: .
Maybe you are confusing it with some other competitor boards I compared (specifically their eMMC flash)? There's nothing about an 8 GB Pi 4 version in "Inside Pi 4". Sorry to disappoint you :-)
It's on the safety / compliance sheet that comes with the pi4

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:17 pm

@RaspberryOrg
I was so shocked (in the most positive way) about the sudden launch of this nearly perfect little beast :)

As everything is more or less raw software wise and all those questions regarding hardware capabilities are coming up here, I have my questions as well:
  1. With RP1 you had this optional licence for MPEG2 and VC-1, which is now unnecessary anymore. Though, did you consider going a similar way for Dolby Vision licences? I am sure a lot of (Media Center) users would buy such a DV licence for being able to watch dynamic HDR.
  2. Yesterday I've read for the first time about a small hardware bug in USB-C power circuitry, which prevents certain chargers to be compatible with RPi 4B.
    Are you going to fix this in an upcoming revision and is there any roadmap for that already?
  3. Since video and gpu section is somewhat new and kodi is also moving to standardized video api's (or whatever MMAL is etc.), what happens to 3D MVC and framepacked output? Can it happen that this is going to be depricated as well in the near future with those transitions to V4L2 and so on? I don't understand the terms MMAL and V4L2 at all, but the 3D support is important for me. And the raspberries are almost unique in supporting this.
  4. Is powering the RPi4B still supported through GPIO 5V headers, the same way it was with all predecessors? I am always using MSLDigital RemotePi Boards for power input and safe shutdown on my old Pis and I would still like to keep it this way.
  5. In case one is still able to power the RPi4B through GPIO 5V pins, will it be necessary to add a fuse to protect the Pi itself?
  6. Since many use Hyperion or similar solutions to add Ambilight-like experience to their non-philips-TV. I'd like to know if it is or will be possible to make use of both HDMI outs for this purpose: e.g. HDMI0 for 4K HDR video output and simultaneously HDMI1 to output a sufficient 480p or 720p copy of the video, that can be used for Hyperions Ambilight? I think since ambilight is using relatively few LEDs it would be sufficient to process only 480p video or so for it. Anyway... by using RPi4Bs both HDMI outputs, an HDMI splitter would be needless, as RPi seems to have everything to do the job (at first glance).

I think that's most of the questions that I can come up with currently. But this is just such a fascinating upgrade. I am so thankful to everybody who was involved and also absolutely appreciate all your hard work!

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:30 pm

kranthi_pi wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:28 pm
So expensive to add external cellular hat, will be good if cellular components exists in Pi board.
You mean you want the same expense paid by everyone?

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:12 pm

infinity85 wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:17 pm
[*] Yesterday I've read for the first time about a small hardware bug in USB-C power circuitry, which prevents certain chargers to be compatible with RPi 4B. Are you going to fix this in an upcoming revision and is there any roadmap for that already?
From what I've read, it's not bug with the Pi power circuits, but some rather nasty "walled garden" habits of certain manufacturers who insist that only their "officially designated" chargers can be used with their own equipment. So much for "standards"...*all* USB-C power sources should be interoperative, but that's a certain--not to be named--manufacturer trying to throw their weight around.
[*] Is powering the RPi4B still supported through GPIO 5V headers, the same way it was with all predecessors?
Never required, but it's engineering "best practice" to do so.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:37 pm

infinity85 wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:17 pm
4. Is powering the RPi4B still supported through GPIO 5V headers, the same way it was with all predecessors? I am always using MSLDigital RemotePi Boards for power input and safe shutdown on my old Pis and I would still like to keep it this way.
5. In case one is still able to power the RPi4B through GPIO 5V pins, will it be necessary to add a fuse to protect the Pi itself?
I think @W. H. Heydt answered the question after the one he quoted. For clarity:
4. Yes, but check compatibility of your particular board -- especially the higher power requirement of a Pi4B (up to 3A @ 5V).
5.
W. H. Heydt wrote: Never required, but it's engineering "best practice" to do so.
In fact the Pi4B schematic diagram does not show any polyfuse protection on the Pi 4B. Since it has been known to save Pis from overvoltage in the past, it would be interesting to see why it has been removed. Perhaps the TVS diode is expected always to fail short circuit, and it is assumed that all PSUs have adequate current limiting.

Does the new official PSU contain a polyfuse?
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:59 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:09 am
pfletch101 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:20 pm
IMHO, if you routinely run your Pis without any sort of case, you must like living dangerously! To me, that involves too much risk of random conductive material under it or dropped on it short-circuiting traces on the board, producing "Magic Smoke". :) I keep all my Pis in cases, but usually with the tops open on 'enclosed' cases or (particularly for my workhorse Pis) in sideless enclosures mounted vertically on a bookcase. I am still waiting for my ordered Pi 4, but my various 3s run under variable loads with CPU temps in the 50s. I will almost certainly mount the 4 vertically in a sideless enclosure, at least initially, but I won't be running it as a bare board.
Ya, know...if you take the top off the case, you're just as vulnerable to having random conductive objects dropped on the Pi as if it's not in a case at all. Your admonition reads as a "do as I say, not as I do."
Not really. The otherwise completely unprotected bottom of the PC board is entirely protected by the bottom half of the case and, since the cases I use have an internal plastic insert over the board (with cutouts for heat sinks and top of board connectors), the top is reasonably well protected, too - albeit not quite as well as if I left the case top on. I make a conscious trade-off between better cooling and slightly increased risk of exposure to random conductive objects.
For me...some Pis are in cases. Depends on what I'm going to with them. Others...well there is this nice section of plastic on the top of the PC right next to my desk. It's a convenient place to put a Pi and I have a set of cables (HDMI, power, USB) that run to the adjacent KVM switch. Over quite a number of years, I haven't lost a Pi there yet.
There is a well known saying to the effect that it is better to be lucky than smart! :) All of us probably do things in the course of our dabbling with electronics which we would not (or, at least should not) hold out as best practice when advising others. I have known some well qualified and duly Registered electricians who occasionally work on live circuits to save a couple of minutes running to the breaker board. The fact that they occasionally do this doesn't make it best practice, and I certainly wouldn't and don't recommend it.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:44 am

kevinbr wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:03 pm
pi3g wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:43 pm
6) What doc has 8GB? Range is 1,2, or 4GB
I think is was a linked pi3g doc not RPF's doc, they seemed to have some more insider detail, how accurate?
Nice to know I have 2 years to learn the Pi 4 before you give us new versions :lol:
That might not be enough time :oops: .
Maybe you are confusing it with some other competitor boards I compared (specifically their eMMC flash)? There's nothing about an 8 GB Pi 4 version in "Inside Pi 4". Sorry to disappoint you :-)
It's on the safety / compliance sheet that comes with the pi4
Yup. That's where I find it. I think the operative expression about an 8GB Pi4B is "not....yet." Either that or the Safety and User Guides that mention may become collectors items.

thaddeussmith
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:49 am

What's the max resolution for audio over hdmi? It was pretty crippled on previous versions and I only see performance specs related to video. Would be nice to not need a separate HAT to keep hi res audio in the digital domain for connecting to my AVR (Roon, specifically)

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:22 am

Yup. That's where I find it. I think the operative expression about an 8GB Pi4B is "not....yet." Either that or the Safety and User Guides that mention may become collectors items.
Saving the 8GB/16GB/32GB for the Pi4B+?
Thanks for finding that, knew I had read it somewhere, but I'm getting old ;)

Typo or not yet?
Not up to date with DDR4 footprints or the number of BCM2711 address pins.
Hmm 4GB is 32Gb, do they make bigger parts?
This is a 32bit wide data path?

Don't expect bigger memory PI's any time soon if the BCM2711 does not have the address pins or no one makes bigger memory.
Single chip 4GB, squeezing a bunch of bits into that part.
I don't have a 4B4 yet, what DDR4 chip is it using?
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jamesh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:58 am

That is a typo. There is no 8GB ram chip that works with the 2711.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 Thread - general discussion

Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:19 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:22 am
Don't expect bigger memory PI's any time soon if the BCM2711 does not have the address pins or no one makes bigger memory.
Single chip 4GB, squeezing a bunch of bits into that part.
I don't have a 4B4 yet, what DDR4 chip is it using?
There was mention in this very thread that the VC6 MMU has 35 bit addressing.

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