gtechn
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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:33 am

Interesting! I wonder if @jamesh could weigh in on why this would not have worked (probably cost, licensing fees, IP, board space, that sort of thing).

Edit: I also wonder if this wasn't compatible with combining Power (3A!) and Display data. This might have been an unwieldy adapter that might not exist yet. I mean, have you ever seen a USB-C to USB-C+HDMI adapter before?
jcyr wrote: It is indeed how business works! We can now lay to rest the notion that "RPi is education first". If the only justification for dual HDMI with unnecessary and clumsy connector setups is "so that we can sell millions of these to purveyors of visual pollution." Then the Pi loses a few reputation points in my book!
It's not just "purveyors of visual pollution." There are plenty of other uses for two displays. Some of the engineers at the RPT group actually use the Pi as their daily driver. Why? Two displays, both 4K, 4GB of RAM to aid with direct ARM compilation, easy testing, it's basically the dream board for a Pi Engineer. And myself included actually - I am shocked and delighted by the fact I can have two displays.

"unnecessary and clumsy connector setups" - OR, you can just buy two microHDMI to HDMI cables. They cost about as much as an adapter ($5 apiece), and that isn't clumsy or unnecessary. That looks just fine.

Finally, the RPT needs to make money. That's how all business works. Without enough money, the Raspberry Pi Foundation can't create great educational material to hand out for schools. Without enough money, the Raspberry Pi Trading branch can't afford hardware upgrades, setting themselves up for eventual irrelevance. Without enough money, the Raspberry Pi Trading branch can't afford to pay their kernel and HW engineers. Money is a requirement - and industry (such as digital signage) buys approximately 1/3 of Pis worldwide. If it makes them happy, that's what keeps the R&D cycle going. And it's not just industry - I love the dual monitors option, and many potential users do too. $35 and your complaining that you can hook up two monitors instead of one?

Edit: Also, seriously, you can get a new HDMI cable for $5 -$10 in the US with microHDMI to HDMI, or an adapter for similar price. I think your hatred of dongles is clouding your mind. Once in a while (not the MacBook, that's not once in a while), a dongle is the best solution.

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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:41 am

johnjones wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:49 am
I can understand all the decisions apart from the USB C port not being used for video / power / USB rather than just power
there are plenty of dongles for USB C to full size HDMI (this is how ChromeOS laptops with USB C achieve it)

its just a missed opportunity

Image
Not quite, what it actually is, is you haven't read the opening post.
A shame really, it's a very well written condensed version of all the information discussed since the Pi4b launch
55:55:44:44:4C
52:4C:52:42:41

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:36 am

It is indeed how business works! We can now lay to rest the notion that "RPi is education first". If the only justification for dual HDMI with unnecessary and clumsy connector setups is "so that we can sell millions of these to purveyors of visual pollution.", then the Pi loses a few reputation points in my book!
Well all the kids RPF is teaching will need jobs, they can move straight into the visual pollution industry?

Customers are always right, whether it is kids or signage companies does not matter.
When you have product that people want to buy, do you say "Sorry you are not my target market, go away"?

There has been a long running post about dual screens, HDMI plus DSI.
Perhaps someone said "Hey too bad these are not both HDMI" :idea:
We get a surprise and that "someone" gets what they want.
Thank you "someone" :D

USB-C makes more sense than barrel jacks, way less idiot factor and I will confess to being one of those.
What idiot designed reversible polarity plugs?
We use Plug packs for all sorts of gear here, something goes wrong it's the first thing we check.
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chwe
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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:41 am

Posting this on the RPi forum doesn't make much sense.. :D You won't find many 'haters' here.. :lol: and I'm quite confident that most of them will visit the RPi forum due to various reasons.. But if you ask for some counter argument.. Okay, I can do it.
gtechn wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:20 pm
Why no eMMC option? The CM3 has this!

1. Cost: According to Mouser.com, cheap 32GB eMMC starts at about $22. More expensive, high quality eMMC is $44 for 32GB. That's more than the Pi 4 costs by itself. Even if it is offered as an option, running multiple SKUs of any product is a logistics nightmare. You'd probably have the Pi 4 1GB-RAM/No-eMMC, Pi 4 2GB-RAM/No-eMMC, Pi4 4GB-RAM/No-eMMC, Pi4 1GB-RAM/16GB-eMMC, Pi4 2GB-RAM/16GB-eMMC, Pi4 4GB-RAM/16GB-eMMC, Pi4 1GB-RAM/32GB-eMMC, Pi4 2GB-RAM/32GB-eMMC, and Pi4 4GB-RAM/32GB-eMMC. Ouch and expensive to produce, and if RPT overproduced one SKU, that could cause significant financial damages.
2. Space: There is no space on the PCB for eMMC even if RPT decided to add it. The Pi is actually a six-layer circuit, and spent over 6 months in design being ~5mm too wide because of the incredible difficulty in getting the current circuit to fit inside the Model B form factor. A brand new form factor would be necessary, but according to a recent interview, the RPT has no intention to launch a hypothetical "Model C" anytime soon. There is no way to fit an eMMC chip onto the Model B form factor without adding more layers to the PCB's 6 - which is currently very expensive.
3. Portability: One of the beauties of SD Cards is that you can develop your project on a top-of-the-line Pi 4, take the SD Card out, and plug the SD card into a power-efficient Pi Zero. You also can mass-copy an SD card onto, say, 30 cards for classrooms. Not with eMMC.
4. Wear-leveling: If someone damages an SD card due to heavy wear, it is replaceable. With eMMC (which is not necessarily more reliable than SD cards), you have a Pi 4 with bad storage. Can you imagine a Raspberry Pi wearing out over time? That's something that current Pi's don't really have a problem with. Industrial customers might not care - but students and teachers in schools will not be pleased with boards that can permanently wear out if overused. This could also lead to schools preventing students from trying certain projects for fear they would wear out the board.
5. Corruption: If an eMMC is corrupted, repairing it is difficult. Bricking a Raspberry Pi permanently is currently very difficult - just download a new SD card image, good as new, no matter what stupid thing you did (unless you overclocked to oblivion). With eMMC, you could, in fact, potentially put a Pi in a situation which might need professional Linux expertise to repair.
IMO the whole paragraph is a non argument at all. :P And I'm quite sure @jamesh will happily disagree with my opinion cause we had this discussion already.. :D
1. first mouser isn't the reference if you look for eMMC prices in bulk, and since the RPi would probably sell x (and compared to the competitors x is likely a huge number) boards.. bulk prices are of importance here. If the SoC allows it (means it has at least 3 SDIO interfaces), this can be solved as every recent design does it. Means you've a socket for eMMC, an SD card interface and the last one for your SDIO wifi chip. You sell different eMMC modules and everyone can pick whatever he needs/prefers. From personal experience.. every eMMC I ever had on a SBC outperformed SD-cards (even the 'good' SanDisk A1 rated cards). So you add a few cents for a connector which might not be always used (similar to the DSI and CSI).
2. Somehow one competitor manages it on the same formfactor to have a SD card interface, place for an eMMC module and an m.2 slot. How dare they are... and the board has dual channel ram and a bigger SoC.. these wizards... (and yes CSI and DSI is also routed)
3. swap the eMMC module, right it wouldn't work cause the VC4 based boards have for sure not 3 SDIO interfaces..
4. see 1. replace the module.. and software can be optimized to lower permanent writes.. but mostly.. see 1. :D
5. actually the same as 4 isn't it? then.. see 1. Most SoCs have a bootorder e.g. the old Allwinner chips (H3) goes SDIO (first the one on which the SD card hangs, then the eMMC one) --> SPI. So the whole thing is unbrickable.. If you mess up eMMC insert a SD card and rewrite it (actually the reason why all those cheap H3 tv boxes can be hacked so easy).. Others like rockchip allow maskroom mode http://rockchip.wikidot.com/how-to-ente ... skrom-mode also not brickable.. No idea what the BCM chip will offer here.. but I assume things are similar otherwise the 'recovery.bin' (https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... teeprom.md) wouldn't exist.. :D And no, non of them needs professional Linux expertise... :P

The whole eMMC thing stands and falls with the SoC. If it has 3x SDIO, eMMC would be possible in a flexible way.. If it has only two.. we'll likely never see eMMC on RPi except the CM modules.. Cool thing for the boardmaker, on eMMC modules he can be quite sure that the user don't buys cheap unreliable crap (on SD cards a bunch of users do it), cause the market is not big enough for knock offs (hopefully if RPi ever opts for a eMMC socket, use a different connector as the competitors, otherwise the market might be big enough for knock offs.. :lol: :lol: )
gtechn wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:20 pm
Why no eSATA? This would be great for NAS!

1. Cost: The SoC has no built-in support for eSATA, and Broadcom (as far as we are aware) has no licensable eSATA blocks for mobile chips. This means either spending easilyover a million dollars (this is not hyperbole - more like several million) to add SATA support to the SoC. The other option is to add a SATA to USB 3.0 adapter on the board, but that costs money and has the exact same performance and chip as a HDD enclosure you can buy on Amazon for $8. So, with little demand from the community at large from eSATA and the fact that you can get equivalent performance on the cheap using an enclosure, why pay to build it in?
2. Space: There is no space on the PCB for an eSATA to USB 3.0 conversion chip even if RPT decided to add it. The Pi is actually a six-layer circuit, and spent over 6 months in design being ~5mm too wide because of the incredible difficulty in getting the current circuit to fit inside the Model B form factor. A brand new form factor would be necessary, but according to a recent interview, RPT has no intention to launch a hypothetical "Model C" anytime soon. There is no way to fit an eSATA to USB 3.0 chip onto the Model B form factor without adding more layers to the PCB's 6 - which is currently very expensive.

Further on this tangent, let's say that Broadcom/RPT spent the cash to build an eSATA connection into the SoC. That eSATA Connector has to go somewhere on the board, and considering that there wasn't room for a full size HDMI port or even room for two mini HDMI ports, there probably isn't room for an eSATA port either, without (again) a new form factor.

Some good news: Shutting down your Pi correctly greatly reduces SD Card damage, Premium SD cards (+$5) last much longer than cheap ones, and the SD card bus is now TWICE as fast in the Pi 4. You will also get PXE and USB boot soon.
1. you mean PCI/USB/SATA bridge on board? sounds like a cocking device.. :D (all those PHYs tend to add heat.. :D). What about exposing PCI on some sort of a pinheader (as friendlyARM does) and selling a USB3 and a SATA hat? :o mind-blowing idea.. :D IIRC the VC5 (never used in RPis I know) had PCI and USB3 so I assume VC6 should offer this too. Why was the 'On-SoC' USB3 not exposed? PinMuxed with PCI? As crippled as USB on VC4 was in the beginnings?
2. See 2 on the part above.. Somehow they managed to expose more interfaces on their board e.g. a NVMe capable m.2 slot..

I don't think SATA should be part of the RPi, cause you're right there's no native support on the bcm chip for it (the only cheap arm SoC with native SATA I've in mind is AllWinner A20). And SATA won't be use-case Nr.1,. PCI exposed to some sort of a pinheader would actually be a nice idea. Like FriendlyARM with their 'own' connector or as more or less all the others (mPCI/m.2). Offering a 'USB3 hat' and a 'SATA hat' making the Pi a bit more modular.


For the whole RTC stuff, I really don't care.. If you want one.. The cheapest i2c based ones go for 1-2$ 'RPi compatible' on aliexpress.. But if this would add 10-15$ you should hire a new engineer.. :mrgreen:

The microHDMI was actually a smart pick.. Exposing both HDMIs is something that to my knowledge none of the competitors can offer at the moment.. Let's see how performance works out on those once it's properly supported..
gtechn wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:20 pm
Why not 4 USB 3.0 ports instead of 2?
thanks god they didn't put 4 USB3 on the board. The nightmare of insane settings with adding 4 HDD/SSD powered over the RPi all suffering from underpower issues would be a nightmare. Even on 2 SSDs without additional powering we see first hints that it might not work reliable at the moment: https://www.cnx-software.com/2019/06/24 ... ent-564128
I assume it's mostly due to not enough juice to power two additional drives and the PHYs needed for USB3-SATA but honestly not tested on my own. I'm not interested in RPi4 as a NAS at all (I've a dedicated SBC for that job which just works fine).

The whole barrel jack discussion is somehow... well.. we'll never see a RPi with it so it doesn't make sense to discuss this really.. I've multiple SBCs with barrel jack (5 and 12V) and I can somehow manage it to don't connect 12V to the 5V ones.. :D I think most of your user base should be able too.. ;)
For the cellphone chargers.. well that's then the same story as RPi on microUSB cellphone chargers.. Some work, some won't work reliable. And for those it doesn't work, they'll allways blame the software, not their hardware setup.. :lol: IMO the combination of USB-C with a PMIC supporting USB PD would have been a great idea.

Towards UART, I've roughly 10 USB UART dongles laying around to debug my SBCs in case something goes wrong and I love SBCs with a dedicated UART pinheader only for debug purposes.. It's simply a way more infos once your board doesn't behave the way it should.. Especially during the time you try do get a new one up and running...

Why no model C.. For me, the Pi4 is a model C cause not the same formfactor anymore (swapping ethernet and USB) well.. it should actually be model D cause between RPi1 and RPi1b+ the formfactor also changed.. But well.. I don't care about names.. :D

Overall the RPi4 seems to be well crafted, mine arrived today and I probably start tomorrow with some trials with the 64 bit kernel just out of curiosity but I don't think the argumentation is rock solid.. Other boardmakers showed that on the same (RockPi) or smaller (NanoPi) formfactor you can expose a bunch of interfaces. eMMC can be designed in an unbrickable way, support for other storage solutions (SATA, NVMe - I know the SoC doesn't support it) can be implemented in a modular way and powering over barrelplug is also not really a problem (at least I don't spot many topics that people fry their SBCs by using the wrong one ;) ).

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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:28 am

gtechn wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:33 am
I also wonder if this wasn't compatible with combining Power (3A!) and Display data. This might have been an unwieldy adapter that might not exist yet. I mean, have you ever seen a USB-C to USB-C+HDMI adapter before?
Yes, they are very common. I've got one that is USB-C to HDMI, USB-C and USB 3.0. But it doesn't handle powering the device it is plugged in to. I just tested it with my Pi 4B.

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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:29 am

My RPi4/4G has all I wanted from it.
What I wanted were: more efficient CPU, faster and more than 1 GB RAM, USB 3.

I complain for...

....a slow new video driver. The current one gives 40 fps on full hd glxgears usng hardware 3D. I think this is only a software problem.
... a lacking hardware manual.

I think boh of these "problems" will be solved in a month or two, so there are not really problems.

About a Chromium fullHD youtube, switching to the old video driver is a good workaround until the problem is solved: fullHD fullscreen YT video is much more fluent and usable using the old driver.

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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:06 am

random remarks about all this:

1. Good idea. Users and mods should collaborate to put together an FAQ with a much broader scope. There are so many questions and arguments that come up on this forum again and again.

2. Regarding the whole drivers and patches situation: While I really appreciate getting the Pi 6 to 12 month earlier than expected, maybe the RPT/RPF should have waited a few more weeks before releasing the Pi 4. A week after the official Debian Buster release would have been convenient and some drivers and fixes might have been ready by then. (Also they would have had time to produce more 4 GB boards which were PREDICTABLY sold out within a few hours. I'm not saying this with the benefit of hindsight. I honestly didn't even try to get one because I just knew they would be sold out)

3. 2x USB 3.0 + 2 x USB 2.0 instead of 4x USB 3.0 : I read somewhere that this is actually a limitation of the SOC.

4. I think the criticism about the overheating problems is partially valid. I keep reading about the issue all over this board and everywhere else. Overheating with nothing but an idling browser? Seriously, I can go on nasty social media sites with Firefox and my trusty Pi 3 (not Pi 3+) in a lousy case/no cooling/hot weather with 30 degs Celsius in my room and it stays well below 70 degs.

If those problems are really unavoidable then the Pi 4 should come with cooling solutions preinstalled instead of making the core target group, many of whom are inexperienced, figure something out on their own. Ending up with either toxic paste or insufficient thermal adhesive strips to attach coolers they had to buy extra from somewhere...Or making their first project finding and installing the necessary pieces of software to make the fan spin up on demand...

And no, reducing the temperature by 3 degs with the upcoming patches probably won't cut it.

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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:43 am

gtechn wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:45 pm
Any defense will come off as slightly fanboy-ish regardless of the truth within. If you have any ideas on how to fix it or make it more neutral-sounding, let me know.
It comes over as fanboy-ish to me because it parrots the "defence" of what there is, takes this one-sided defensive view, and seems to be supporting a position that there can be no legitimate criticism of the Pi, that anyone who has any criticism is a "hater".

For example the argument against adding an RTC to the SoC as it would have been a multi-million dollar modification. Maybe, but going from BCM2710 to BCM2711 was presumably a multi-million dollar change, and including the addition of an RTC within that would not have been so great. It may even have been an insignificant part of the total.

And then the need for coin cell batteries. Every product which has an in-built RTC copes with the issue. It doesn't necessary need a lot of board space; a two pin header could be added.

I'm not arguing for an RTC, just noting your defence for it not being added seems disingenuous to me.

Likewise the problems with eMMC can be overcome by having other means to boot which take precedence over eMMC booting.

But I don't really care; The Pi is what it is. Take it or leave it.
Last edited by hippy on Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:59 am

I posted elsewhere, but video over USB-C is a PITA due to the extra protections chips you need to include to prevent the design fault in the USB-C connector of having the high voltage next to the display lines causing problems with the SoC. The connector, if twisted, can short those lines, causing a spike to destroy the SoC video output circuitry. So you need an extra protection chip to prevent this from happening. An expense we are not willing the bare.

On the whole, all the design decisions eventually come down to cost - what can we do inside our BOM budget. And the Pi4 is what we could do within the budget. If something is 'missing' it will be because of cost. It's as simple as that. Arguing that something only adds a tiny amount to the cost ignores the fact that tiny amounts add up to a lot of money when you sell as many devices as we do.

Of course, 'cost' means a number of things. The cost of components, the costs of adding a feature to an SoC, the cost of developing software. Some are ongoing, some are one off costs that need to be amortised.

Suffice to say, we spend a LOT of time making sure we give the best value for money, so arguing we 'got it wrong' just makes us snigger. We know what was possible, we know how much it cost, we know the effort that went into that BOM equation.
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gtechn
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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:34 pm

Added more commentary, a new section on why 64-bit Raspbian isn't a thing, and balanced opinion slightly.

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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:46 pm

hippy,

Call it "fanboy-ish" if you like.

Reality is there are reasons why everything is as it is. A very big reason is cost, as jamesh points out.

That might, for example, include using whatever SoC Broadcom has available on the cheap. And hence having to live within it's limitations. (I have no idea if that is significant or not, just an example).

So there is a case to be made for putting people straight when they start shouting about how how the Pi should have this and that and how it should have done this and that differently. Mostly such shouting seems to come from people ignorant of what it takes to make such a product, the costs involved and have not thought things through.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:13 pm

Heater wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:46 pm
Mostly such shouting seems to come from people ignorant of what it takes to make such a product, the costs involved and have not thought things through.
This.

Having dealt with it on every Pi launch and for the last two weeks for the Pi4, I'm getting a bit tetchy about it all. Every random internet commentator/concern troll seems to think they can just design a new SBC, pop down the shops and get the bits for it, then sell it for $35. Here's some news for them. You can't, so stop trying to tell the experts (i.e. the people that have sold more SBC's than all other manufacturers combined) how to do their jobs. Grr.
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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:19 pm

jamesh wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:13 pm
Every random internet commentator/concern troll seems to think they can just design a new SBC, pop down the shops and get the bits for it, then sell it for $35. Here's some news for them. You can't, so stop trying to tell the experts (i.e. the people that have sold more SBC's than all other manufacturers combined) how to do their jobs.
Hear, hear.

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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:37 pm

chwe wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:41 am
(the only cheap arm SoC with native SATA I've in mind is AllWinner A20).
Their A10 also has it. (I'll grant that that may be a distinction without a difference.)

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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:42 pm

jamesh wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:13 pm
Having dealt with it on every Pi launch and for the last two weeks for the Pi4, I'm getting a bit tetchy about it all. Every random internet commentator/concern troll seems to think they can just design a new SBC, pop down the shops and get the bits for it, then sell it for $35. Here's some news for them. You can't, so stop trying to tell the experts (i.e. the people that have sold more SBC's than all other manufacturers combined) how to do their jobs. Grr.
My reaction to such people is to ask when their SBC is going to be launched.

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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:32 pm

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:36 am
Customers are always right, whether it is kids or signage companies does not matter.
Regrettably, a familiar trope proven wrong in so many cases
When you have product that people want to buy, do you say "Sorry you are not my target market, go away"?
Sure, if it detracts from your mission.
There has been a long running post about dual screens, HDMI plus DSI.
I'm guessing that less than 1% of the 'educational/hobbyist' market would want or need dual-monitors.
USB-C makes more sense than barrel jacks, way less idiot factor and I will confess to being one of those.
What idiot designed reversible polarity plugs?
We use Plug packs for all sorts of gear here, something goes wrong it's the first thing we check.
On this issue I don't care either way. Used barrel jacks with Beaglebone with no problem whatsoever! Again another familiar trope: 'We must cater to the lowest common denominator'.

Don't get me wrong. Though the PI4 is the most disappointing (or should I say, the least impressive) Raspberry offering so far, I still like the platform but will nevertheless dock them a few points for their veering to crass commercialism.
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:43 pm

jcyr wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:32 pm
Don't get me wrong. Though the PI4 is the most disappointing (or should I say, the least impressive) Raspberry offering so far, I still like the platform but will nevertheless dock them a few points for their veering to crass commercialism.
I'm curious. What about the Pi 4 makes it the "least impressive offering" of all previous product releases?
Rockets are loud.
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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:44 pm

gtechn wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:33 am
Also, seriously, you can get a new HDMI cable for $5 -$10 in the US with microHDMI to HDMI, or an adapter for similar price. I think your hatred of dongles is clouding your mind. Once in a while (not the MacBook, that's not once in a while), a dongle is the best solution.
Oh, I don't know? There's beauty in simplicity. Price has little to do with it. Forcing the use of external adapters is just another small unnecessary annoyance for someone who has no plans to ever use any monitors, let alone two! Monitors are for desktop stuff, and other than for purely educational purposes, isn't the desktop is better served by Intel?
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:56 pm

jcyr wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:44 pm
Forcing the use of external adapters is just another small unnecessary annoyance for someone who has no plans to ever use any monitors, let alone two!
What? If you want to run headless, then why on earth do you need to plug anything into those two micro HDMI sockets?
Certainly no adapters are needed and no cable is needed.
Please think things through before complaining.

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rpdom
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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:02 pm

jcyr wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:44 pm
gtechn wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:33 am
Also, seriously, you can get a new HDMI cable for $5 -$10 in the US with microHDMI to HDMI, or an adapter for similar price. I think your hatred of dongles is clouding your mind. Once in a while (not the MacBook, that's not once in a while), a dongle is the best solution.
Oh, I don't know? There's beauty in simplicity. Price has little to do with it. Forcing the use of external adapters is just another small unnecessary annoyance for someone who has no plans to ever use any monitors, let alone two! Monitors are for desktop stuff, and other than for purely educational purposes, isn't the desktop is better served by Intel?
But on another thread someone was asking about using two monitors, two mice and two keyboards on a PI 4B in a school, so to reduce the number of computers needed for a class.

However, if they have enough money to be able to throw away on power hungry, noisy, hot, Intel systems, so be it.

The cost of 12 Raspis, a few cheap adaptors, power supplies and SD cards is going to be considerably less than 24 PCs (I'm ignoring monitors, keyboards and mices, as both systems will need them).

gtechn
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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:04 pm

@jcyr Your post came off as so incredibly selfish and derogatory (you seriously think that the USB-C decision was because of the "lowest common denominator"? I assume you mean kids and first-timers.) And tropes, seriously? Just because it is a trope doesn't make it wrong or misguided - and I don't think your examples were even tropes to begin with, more like you complaining and trying to make it look like a trope. And as for "only 1%", I can guarantee you JamesH and the RPT think it's far greater than that. Take a look at online reviews: Most people think 2x displays is great! The only complaint is the connector, and there are far more people wishing for a different connector shape (like HDMI over USB-C) than, say, going back to only 1 display over full size HDMI.

Finally, "most disappointing"? You've clearly been spoiled by the age of $35 computers that are, what, 30x or something faster than when they were originally, because you need a $5 adapter or a $5 cable.

I'm just going to leave with JamesH post.
jamesh wrote: Every random internet commentator/concern troll seems to think they can just design a new SBC, pop down the shops and get the bits for it, then sell it for $35. Here's some news for them. You can't, so stop trying to tell the experts (i.e. the people that have sold more SBC's than all other manufacturers combined) how to do their jobs. Grr.
Last edited by gtechn on Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jcyr
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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:04 pm

jahboater wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:56 pm
jcyr wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:44 pm
Forcing the use of external adapters is just another small unnecessary annoyance for someone who has no plans to ever use any monitors, let alone two!
What? If you want to run headless, then why on earth do you need to plug anything into those two micro HDMI sockets?
Certainly no adapters are needed and no cable is needed.
Please think things through before complaining.
Simple, board space and power. At least stub one of the HDMI ports.
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

jahboater
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Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:09 pm

jcyr wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Simple, board space and power. At least stub one of the HDMI ports.
If you have
no plans to ever use any monitors, let alone two
why do you care?

jcyr
Posts: 483
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Location: Atlanta

Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:09 pm

gtechn wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:04 pm
@jcyr Your post came off as so incredibly selfish and derogatory (you seriously think that the USB-C decision was because of the "lowest common denominator"? I assume you mean kids and first-timers.) And tropes, seriously? Just because it is a trope doesn't make it wrong or misguided - and I don't think your examples were even tropes to begin with, more like you complaining and trying to make it look like a trope. And as for "only 1%", I can guarantee you JamesH and the RPT think it's far greater than that. Take a look at online reviews: Most people think 2x displays is great! The only complaint is the connector, and there are far more people wishing for a different connector shape (like HDMI over USB-C) than, say, going back to only 1 display over full size HDMI.

Finally, "most disappointing"? You've clearly been spoiled by the age of $35 computers that are, what, 30x or something faster than when they were originally, because you need a $5 adapter or a $5 cable.

I'm just going to leave with JamesH post.
jamesh wrote: Every random internet commentator/concern troll seems to think they can just design a new SBC, pop down the shops and get the bits for it, then sell it for $35. Here's some news for them. You can't, so stop trying to tell the experts (i.e. the people that have sold more SBC's than all other manufacturers combined) how to do their jobs. Grr.
Oooh! Feel the burn. :lol:
It's um...uh...well it's kinda like...and it's got a bit of...

gtechn
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:32 pm

Re: Why doesn't the next Pi add...? Why doesn't the Pi 4 have...? The definitive debunking!

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:10 pm

jcyr wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:04 pm
Simple, board space and power. At least stub one of the HDMI ports.
Then use a pliers and pull the extra microHDMI off. Not a problem!

Edit: Power? If you don't have any displays connected, you aren't using any power.
Board Space? I would think that, if that mattered to you, those GPIO pins and USB ports might need removing.
And if you are such an embedded person, I'm surprised you aren't overjoyed by the 6 UART.

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