roman1980
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I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:31 pm

I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Hi, recently found out that Intel and AMD put a backdoor into all their computer and have done since 2008 called the "Intel management engine" and ''AMD's Platform Security Processor". Both of those bypasses the OS, Anti-Virus as the chip lives directly on the board and can't be removed.
IT has direct access to the hard drive, peripherals and all I/O information. It can even start up and shut down your computer remotely and copy information from the hard drive and it has direct access to the internet that can't be blocked by a software firewall.

Originally designed apparently for admin people of large companies to deploy software or change settings to a computer in one swoop but it can be used to remote control computers and harvest information with the user not knowing.

Does the raspberry pi have a version of this on the board?

P.S I am not a crazy person if you don't believe me just google it or look on YouTube you will find this well documented.

Thanks

Roman

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topguy
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:51 pm

Links to sources is always appreciated when making wild claims:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine

Also discussed before.
viewtopic.php?t=151542

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B.Goode
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:12 pm

Does the raspberry pi have a version of this {backdoor} on the board?


Maybe you are asking in the wrong place?


Because these forums are provided and supported by the Raspberry Pi Foundation in support of their own products.

And if they were as deceitful as they would need to be for the answer to your question to be 'Yes', they would surely take steps to see to it that either the question never got raised [failed on that one!] or that you were only given misleading or totally inaccurate replies?

Maybe I am working for 'them' and have been briefed to throw you off the scent...

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topguy
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:32 pm

A remote management tool is by definition a backdoor, a very useful backdoor when your server on the other side of the globe ( or disc if you are a flatearther :lol: ) is acting up.

But if we continue this discussion with the assumption that none of these features are designed with the intent of being nefarious, this thread might not be locked in the next two hours ;-)

It doesnt mean the features can not be exploited by people with nefarious intent if there are security flaws. Intel ( and others ) are of course very tight lipped about their implementation, because they don't want the wrong people looking for security holes and I guess they also want tight control on the Remote Management Software.

The existence of these feature has never been a secret, only very few people have any use for them.

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bensimmo
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:03 pm

I have a HuaWei phone.



To be fair, he/she is only asking.

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davidcoton
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:07 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:03 pm
I have a HuaWei phone.
Remind me not to discuss any security issues with you on phone, text, or email. :lol: :roll: :twisted:
Signature retired

Heater
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:16 pm

If you really want to get paranoid about the unknown features of modern x86 processors then spend some time checking out various videos about them from CCC conferences:

Everything you want to know about x86 microcode, but might have been afraid to ask: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY5kucyhKFc
Joanna Rutkowska: Towards (reasonably) trustworthy x86 laptops: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcwngbUrZNg
What could possibly go wrong with (insert x86 instruction here)? (33c3): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS8YPDuZbKM
Intel ME: Myths and reality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsmHmYxyoxg&t=623s

There are many more.

Personally, I can see that these things are very useful in servers and elsewhere but the idea we have multiple rings of security in the processors that are unreachable by our operating systems, undocumented and running code we know nothing about abhorrent. As is the existence of totally separate processors, running Minix, that own the machine.

As for the Pi. As far as I know it has no such engine. I suspect if it did then some of the 20 million of it's hacker users would have sniffed it out by now.

However the Pi has it's own black box. The video core. That takes most of the chip area. It runs code we know nothing about. It owns the whole machine from boot onward.

Nope, if you want to be confident of having a processor you can know inside out you will have to get your own made. I suggest starting with a RISC V core: https://riscv.org/
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

jdb
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:32 pm

If you want to get even more paranoid, note that every reasonably complex ASIC has silicon debug capable of reading out the entire state of the chip (for production test).

https://hal-lirmm.ccsd.cnrs.fr/lirmm-00599690/document

It's a potential attack vector for e.g. reading out your AES key but if you had an evil chip fab (think state-scale actors) then you would have an advanced, persistent threat in your silicon as well. Best to dig up your own sand and dope your own wafers, just to be on the safe side.
Rockets are loud.
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fruitoftheloom
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:56 pm

roman1980 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:31 pm
I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Hi, recently found out that Intel and AMD put a backdoor into all their computer and have done since 2008 called the "Intel management engine" and ''AMD's Platform Security Processor". Both of those bypasses the OS, Anti-Virus as the chip lives directly on the board and can't be removed.
IT has direct access to the hard drive, peripherals and all I/O information. It can even start up and shut down your computer remotely and copy information from the hard drive and it has direct access to the internet that can't be blocked by a software firewall.

Originally designed apparently for admin people of large companies to deploy software or change settings to a computer in one swoop but it can be used to remote control computers and harvest information with the user not knowing.

Does the raspberry pi have a version of this on the board?

P.S I am not a crazy person if you don't believe me just google it or look on YouTube you will find this well documented.

Thanks

Roman

The easiest solution is to not use any "devices", there is a rumour one can use pen and paper to communicate !
Retired disgracefully.....

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bensimmo
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:21 pm

there are secret graphene processors in them there pencils or so i hear..

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B.Goode
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:29 pm

If you press too hard while writing 'they' can read the impression left on the sheet of paper below.

The Romans in Britain used wax-covered tablets that they scratched with a stylus. But some of them scratched the wood below, and their messages can still be read: https://www.mola.org.uk/blog/archaeolog ... s-released

ejolson
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:56 pm

B.Goode wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:29 pm
If you press too hard while writing 'they' can read the impression left on the sheet of paper below.

The Romans in Britain used wax-covered tablets that they scratched with a stylus. But some of them scratched the wood below, and their messages can still be read: https://www.mola.org.uk/blog/archaeolog ... s-released
Another security backdoor has recently been uncovered in the ancient abacus: It is possible to determine the calculation being performed by listening to the sound the beads make. The always on sound recording technology present in current mobile phones means that people on the other side of the world can also determine the calculation with 99% accuracy. What makes these backdoors significant is that people living on the other side of the world often have different terms and levels of accountability than the local employee or citizen.

While it would be interesting to see a remote administration tool runing on the VC4 GPU that allows one to reinstall Raspian, I think the original design was the other way around--using the attached ARM processor to provide remote administrative services for the GPU.
Last edited by ejolson on Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Heater
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:04 pm

The original design did not have an ARM processor on it. Only the Video Core. The ARM was tacked on in order to create the first Pi.

The Romans were not much good at security, see Caesar cipher. Luckily not many people could read at the time.

The more unknown, undocumented features we have in our hardware the less secure we are. See Specter and Meltdown.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

hippy
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:41 pm

roman1980 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:31 pm
Does the raspberry pi have a version of this on the board?
I doubt it would even matter to most people if it did.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:47 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:04 pm
The original design did not have an ARM processor on it. Only the Video Core. The ARM was tacked on in order to create the first Pi.

Surely not, the first SoC was released in 2006 VideoCore II

https://download.siliconexpert.com/pdfs ... pb00-r.pdf

The BCM2835 SoC was also used in Roku boxes :?
Retired disgracefully.....

Ernst
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:02 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:21 pm
there are secret graphene processors in them there pencils or so i hear..
My favorite encryption tool: https://www.kaweco-pen.com/en/series/cl ... 2-mm-black has the same size (length) as a Pi 0, actually a bit more ;-)
The road to insanity is paved with static ip addresses

ejolson
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:27 pm

hippy wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:41 pm
roman1980 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:31 pm
Does the raspberry pi have a version of this on the board?
I doubt it would even matter to most people if it did.
Since the Pi itself doesn't matter to many, what matters to most is not interesting, in my opinion, when it comes to Pi-related questions.

On the other hand, the security of digital communications, sensitive data, networks, computers, phones, home automation and industrial control systems increasingly appear as topics in the popular news. Therefore, discussions involving the Raspberry Pi may soon become as fashionable as anthropomorphic climate change from California to Cambridgeshire among the pseudo-intellectual elite. As a result, being literate in computer security could also matter to the politicians and the digital peasantry.

Heater
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:04 pm

fruitoftheloom,
Surely not, the first SoC was released in 2006 VideoCore II
That is what I read back in the early Pi days. Most likely here on this forum. Sadly I can't find a link to it just now.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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bensimmo
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:29 pm

Atmel processor iirc from one of the blogs about the history

Heater
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:36 pm

Yes that is the story I got.

First Pi ideas/experiments used ATMEL. Not thought to be very attractive due to the lack of graphics.

Then Eben got a job at Broadcom and the idea of bolting an ARM core to the Video Core came about.
Last edited by Heater on Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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bensimmo
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:45 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:36 pm
Yes that is the story I got.

First Pi ideas/experiments used ATMEL. Not thought to be very attractive due to the lack of graphics.

Then Eben got a job at Broadcom and the idea of bolting an ARM core to the Video Core cam about.
Speed of a BBC Micro too.

Heater
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:47 pm

I'm not sure how significant the BBC Micro and BBC BASIC was in all of this. Apart from the inspiration to get back to a computer kids could use easily.

The Pi is named after Python after all.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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bensimmo
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:49 am

Gone off topic but
The Pi is, but the 2006 "not a Pi Pi" based on the Atmel was "about the speed of a BBC Micro", one of its downsides, but it looked nice on strip/veroboard.

It was also the inspiration of what Eben wanted to make and made Eben.


(no basic mentioned by me)


www.techrepublic.com/google-amp/picture ... -35-board/

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/the-life-of-pi

Did they have super spy chips in them ?

Heater
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:19 am

I always wondered if we could get the schematics and software for that original ATMEL Pi. I'm curious as to how it went.

Sort of real retro Pi.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Gavinmc42
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Re: I know this sounds like something from a Spy novel or makes me sound a like a crazy person but...

Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:28 am

I recently got a cheap home security system with 4 IR cameras to add to my existing Pi based one.
Turns out the setup software only runs on Android and Windows :(
I rang the company for a Linux version so I can plug it into the Pi system.
"We don't provide Linux software or source code".

I wondered why the Android software needs 80MB to setup up some camera settings?
Why does it need access to all the data on my phone or on Windows.
Why is the a port open at 49,000+?
I just use a browser for the Pi camera setups on MotionEYE OS, Pikrellcam.

It is still not installed and I am still trying to get the software off my phone.
Hmm perhaps a factory reset? Should have thought of that before.
The phone seems to have acquired lots of unknown software and is running out of room.
Analog to USB video grabbers works on Pi's?
Anyone made a 4ch analog video hat?

So yep these days I'm suspicious or just crazy too.
Learning to make my own OS and RISC-V cpu.

I set a Pi3B+ up as a BT scanner as I was playing with BT coding on a Microbit.
Amazing how many people walked past with BT turned on.
Pretty sure with the right software some data could have been sucked off those phones.
[I always wondered if we could get the schematics and software for that original ATMEL Pi. I'm curious as to how it went./quote]
There is a picture of the breadboard version, identify the chips the circuit could be mostly logically derived from that.
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
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