Andyroo
Posts: 3265
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:49 am
Location: Lincs U.K.

No boot from 500 GB HDD without power

Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:36 pm

I'm baffled by this so any help appreciated. TLDR at the bottom :lol:

I have a Pi 3B v1.2 with no HATs and powered by an official power supply
Boots fine of a 16Gb SD into Raspbian Stretch or Raspbian Stretch Lite using version dated 27-06-18 or Raspbian Stretch dated 09-10-18 created with Etcher 1.4.4
Only things normally connected to this headless Pi are power, WiFi and a single Logitech USB dongle for the keyboard and mouse.

I have tried this without the USB keyboard and mouse dongle to remove that as an issue.

Network connection and SSH was set up pre first boot off the SSD by putting the files into the boot folder. These imported fine and I can SSH directly to it over the LAN. I have NOT changed the default password at this time.

I then set the OTP memory on the Pi to allow boot from USB as per https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... des/msd.md and get the following output:
Screen Shot 2018-11-11 at 17.51.30.png
Screen Shot 2018-11-11 at 17.51.30.png (8.29 KiB) Viewed 1386 times
I then used Etcher (on the Mac) to format the HDD using Stretch 27-06-18 and could read the /boot partition fine on the Mac

Removing the SSD (after an unmount) I plugged it in via an unpowered USB adapter, powered the Pi and got the Pi light for around 5 or so seconds.
After that, the drive active light on the USB to Sata flashed, then lights up and never goes out. This is as far as it gets.
I can hear the disk spinning but it does not seem to have any head movement no matter how long I leave it.
The power light on the Pi remains on
No flashes from the green activity light are seen at all
Nothing appears on the HDMI screen (no rainbow, no lightning, no boot text)

So far I have tried:

0) Drinking copious amounts of tea and eating more than my fair share of custard creams (undunked)
1) Upgrading Etcher to 1.4.6 and retrying the above - no effect
2) Using both lite and full versions of Raspbian from zip files I know are good on both the SD card and HDD
3) Downloading the latest full version again and trying the new file
4) Checking the HDD on a Mac. The Mac shows /boot contents fine and thats all I would expect as the Mac does not have ext4 support loaded
5) Checking the HDD on a Linux Mint box. This shows /boot and /rootfs and running gparted shows me:
Unallocated 4.00 MiB
/dev/sda1 fat32 boot 43.8 MiB with 21.13 MiB free flagged lba
/dev/sda2 ext4 rootfs 3.8 GiB with 513.39 MiB free
Unallocated of 461.91 GiB
5) Booting the Pi from the SD card and then inserting the USB drive gives me sda/sda1/sda2 entries in /dev and these can be mounted from the command line fine
6) Booting the Pi from the SD card with the USB drive plugged in (no keyboard dongle) lets the Pi boot and the drive shows up as /dev/sda, /dev/sda1 and /dev/sda2 over SSH. As I know I've not put the WiFi/SSH files on the current HDD drive /boot partition I'm 100% sure its booting from the SD card. Mounting sda1 gives me the boot files, mounting sda2 gives me the rootfs files. Checking the OTP from this state still reports the value above so its not rewritten it by magic.
7) Trying both a USB 2 and USB 3 adapter for the disk (I do not have a spare small disk at the moment I can use)

The only way I can get the Pi to boot is to put the drive into a powered USB enclosure and at that point I get flashing on the activity light, rainbow screen and a boot sequence.

TLDR
I cannot believe the Seagate 500GB 2.5" USB drive is taking more than 1 Amp to start up and the Pi is happy with it once booted from SD / powered enclosure - the drive itself states +5V 0.451 A

Its almost like the drive is too slow to start and the boot loader times out - can this be increased?

What drives are folk using that I can buy to boot the Pi from?
Need Pi spray - these things are breeding in my house...

LTolledo
Posts: 1515
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:29 am

Re: No boot from 500 GB HDD without power

Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:25 am

I have successfully booted my RPi3B (and RPi3B+) using a 2.5" 2TB Seagate Barracuda.
Interface used were SATA to USB 3.0 adaptor by Eluteng and Inateck, bus powered from RPi
Chips used by those interface were ASM 1153(E)

PSU used is 5V 3.0A
Raspbian Stretch with Desktop
with HDMI monitor, Wireless Keyboard and mouse combo
and an LED desk lamp connected to USB port.
Wifi and/or LAN connection to network
Bluetooth OFF

boots fine. Well slower boot start time compared to microSD card boot, but still boots faster than my I7 7820HK equipped windows 10 gaming laptop!
"Don't come to me with 'issues' for I don't know how to deal with those
Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

Some people be like:
"Help me! Am drowning! But dont you dare touch me nor come near me!"

Andyroo
Posts: 3265
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:49 am
Location: Lincs U.K.

Re: No boot from 500 GB HDD without power

Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:43 pm

Well I've tried two new things tonight:

1) Powering the drive first and then the Pi so the drive has time to spin up. No go on two out of the three USB adapters.

2) Using a HGST drive in all the adapters. Again no go on two but OK on the third.

So far it seems that the only USB / Sata connector I have is a big el-cheapo from Maplin marked Pro-Box that can hold a full size drive and the Pi in its box

I'll have a hunt to see if I have a USB hub (do not think so as the PCs that need them have add-in cards here) but it looks like boot support for some USB adapters is weak / missing :cry:

I would have thought Seagate and Icy-Box would have worked where as the cheap 'no name' would not :twisted: :roll: :twisted:

Not sure if I want to get too deep in this (i.e. this may work, this may not) as it was supposed to be a simple pilot for a compute module unit but I am beginning to think I'll split the collection onto an Arduino and storage on a PC as its easier to QC / control though more expensive initially :cry:
Need Pi spray - these things are breeding in my house...

LTolledo
Posts: 1515
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:29 am

Re: No boot from 500 GB HDD without power

Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:23 am

just to confirm, can you get the chipset used in the SATA to USB adaptor / HDD to USB case you are using?

the command is

Code: Select all

lsusb
"Don't come to me with 'issues' for I don't know how to deal with those
Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

Some people be like:
"Help me! Am drowning! But dont you dare touch me nor come near me!"

Andyroo
Posts: 3265
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:49 am
Location: Lincs U.K.

Re: No boot from 500 GB HDD without power

Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:32 pm

Apologies for the delay - the Pi was boxed up for a test and I got stuck on a little repeat key issue that was WAY harder than I expected (pride goeth before a fall as the saying goes).

These are the none powered USB to SATA interfaces that did not work:

USB 3 - from Icy-box:
Bus 001 Device 005: ID 13fd:3940 Initio Corporation

USB 2 - from Seagate:
Bus 001 Device 008: ID 13fd:1618 Initio Corporation

The powered unit (that cannot be used without external power):
Bus 001 Device 009: ID 2109:0700 VIA Labs, Inc. VL700 SATA 3Gb/s bridge

I've got two more that I aim to try in the week but one 'is in the post' and one is being used as a Time Machine backup on my Mac!

I also noticed the Pi 3A+ announcement had a note 'Improved USB mass-storage booting' so I wonder if it was only coded to use / recognise some USB chipsets originally?

Now, if anyone would like to send me a Pi 3A+ for 'testing'... :o :lol: :roll:
Need Pi spray - these things are breeding in my house...

k-pi
Posts: 896
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:46 pm
Location: Upper Hale, Surrey, UK.

Re: No boot from 500 GB HDD without power

Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:10 pm

Now, if anyone would like to send me a Pi 3A+ for 'testing'... :o :lol: :roll:
Forget it! That is even worse for USB booting...... :lol:

(See my post in the RPi3A+ Sticky thread. ;) )

I've been unable to boot any SSD/HDD without an external power supply, on either RPi3B or RPi3B+. :? :cry:

Andyroo
Posts: 3265
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:49 am
Location: Lincs U.K.

Re: No boot from 500 GB HDD without power

Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:16 pm

k-pi wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:10 pm
...
I've been unable to boot any SSD/HDD without an external power supply, on either RPi3B or RPi3B+. :? :cry:
Do you know what adapter you are using?

Could you run the lsusb command and post the result here? You may have the same as I have...
Need Pi spray - these things are breeding in my house...

User avatar
HawaiianPi
Posts: 4193
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:53 am
Location: Aloha, Oregon USA

Re: No boot from 500 GB HDD without power

Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:06 pm

The boot-loader in the Raspberry Pi computer is not compatible with all USB mass storage devices. However, the specific chipset in the adapter is not the issue. It's a combination of the chipset in the USB adapter, the drive, and the firmware in both. The one I've had the best luck with is an ELUTENG USB 3.0 to SATA III adapter cable (which seems to have been replaced by a different model now). I've tested it with four different brands of SSD and a couple of laptop hard drives, and it has worked with USB power on my Pi 3B and 3B+ (using the official power supply). I also have an ORICO external USB 3.0 enclosure that works great.
Andyroo wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:36 pm
...
TLDR[/u]
I cannot believe the Seagate 500GB 2.5" USB drive is taking more than 1 Amp to start up and the Pi is happy with it once booted from SD / powered enclosure - the drive itself states +5V 0.451 A
I find that surprising, because the Seagate laptop drives I own are power pigs that need 1A during spin-up. My WD drives are much more frugal.
Its almost like the drive is too slow to start and the boot loader times out - can this be increased?
There is another OTP bit that increases the wait time for USB drives from the default 2 seconds to 5 seconds. To enable the additional wait time, add "program_usb_boot_timeout=1" to config.txt on a Raspbian SD card and boot it once in the system. This is a permanent change that sets bit 24 of register 66 in the OTP memory block (for either the 3B or 3B+ models).

To verify that bit 24 has been set, the command is:

Code: Select all

vcgencmd otp_dump | grep 66
which returns the following hexadecimal values.
  • RPi model 3B
  • 66:00009daa (default)
  • 66:01009daa (bit programmed)
  • RPi model 3B+
  • 66:02009eaa (default)
  • 66:03009eaa (bit programmed)
EDIT:
The link to the ELUTENG adapter on Amazon USA now points to a different, possibly newer model that I have not tested. The new one has LED power and activity indicators, while the pair I have has neither.
Last edited by HawaiianPi on Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
lots of pop-ups...and where is that annoying music coming from?

Andyroo
Posts: 3265
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:49 am
Location: Lincs U.K.

Re: No boot from 500 GB HDD without power

Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:27 pm

I’ve to cut variables out by using the official Pi adapter, same SSD or HDD and the same Pi. Do not forget, on this forum, it is regularly pointed out that the Pi can deliver more than 500mA through the USB port.

So far neither the type of USB adapter (2 or 3) or the drive has made any difference - only the adapter. Even the same manufactures adapter but three years difference in firmware did not help.

I think the use case for this is limited given the school use I think it’s a tick box exercise for them but had limited testing. Would it have hurt to say what chipset can be used? Given all of these devices can boot a PC AND Mac without power (except the external obviously) with better firmware but less power then I’ll continue playing for myself but professionally I could not recommend disk boot as a solution at this time.

Like I said, a couple more are to be tested and they may fix my problem till the supplier changes the device without saying...
Need Pi spray - these things are breeding in my house...

User avatar
DarkPlatinum
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:30 pm
Location: Unknown
Contact: Website

Re: No boot from 500 GB HDD without power

Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:54 pm

k-pi wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:10 pm
I've been unable to boot any SSD/HDD without an external power supply, on either RPi3B or RPi3B+. :? :cry:
Are you using the Official power supply? My RPi 3B+ boots fine from an external 1 TB seagate HDD plugged directly into the USB port.
1 * Raspberry Pi Zero W, 1 * Raspberry Pi 2, 1 * Raspberry Pi 3 1 * Raspberry Pi 3B + :mrgreen:

Check Out My Raspberry Site (Run on a Raspberry Pi 3B :) ): Https://Html.dynu.net

User avatar
HawaiianPi
Posts: 4193
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:53 am
Location: Aloha, Oregon USA

Re: No boot from 500 GB HDD without power

Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:43 am

Andyroo wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:27 pm
I think the use case for this is limited given the school use I think it’s a tick box exercise for them but had limited testing.
The issue is limited space in the SoC for the boot-loader code. There isn't room for a large, complex boot-loader. The Raspberry Pi boot-loader is simple out of necessity.

Would it have hurt to say what chipset can be used?
As I said above, the chipset is not the issue. I have different brand adapters with the same chipset that behave differently. Comprehensive testing of a large variety of devices is time consuming and labor intensive, and time is money, which is why companies like Apple and Microsoft charge for for services like that. The Raspberry Pi foundation does what it can within reason, but do keep in mind this is a $35 computer, with an OS and support provided for free.

Best advice I can offer is to give the ELUTENG adapter a try. I can't promise it will work for you, but it's the best I've found in my limited testing. This appears to be the same one on Amazon UK. There is also another listing for a model with LED power and activity indicators. The pair I have do not have the LED indicators, and I have not tested the LED model.
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
lots of pop-ups...and where is that annoying music coming from?

Andyroo
Posts: 3265
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:49 am
Location: Lincs U.K.

Re: No boot from 500 GB HDD without power

Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:31 pm

HawaiianPi wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:43 am
As I said above, the chipset is not the issue. I have different brand adapters with the same chipset that behave differently. Comprehensive testing of a large variety of devices is time consuming and labor intensive, and time is money, which is why companies like Apple and Microsoft charge for for services like that.
The problem here is that the compute module (the proposed final destination of this project) is more a specific commercial unit and the lack of some documentation hurts development budgets. It becomes a catch-22 in that without a development unit that can work with 'off-the-shelf' items like USB disks its a hard battle to propose these when you have to add significant caveats such as 'it should work in a few years but I may have to buy all the drives etc at the start even if we do not need them' when finance and operations need a turn-key solution that just works now and in the future. Is that wrong of them :?: as a service oriented person - no I think not but balancing the budget is a major issue when you compare £150+ for a PC board to £35+ for a compute module PI.
The Raspberry Pi foundation does what it can within reason, but do keep in mind this is a $35 computer, with an OS and support provided for free.
Agreed totally but commercially (and remember the compute board here) I see many Red Hat / Centos solutions being proposed as part of multi-£K projects due to the support available at a cost compared to the higher risk, lower cost open source / FOC solutions. The docs on the web site for the commercial boards are handy but more electrical than project orientated and its a bit of a quirk - 'here is a device and some basic docs and good luck' :lol:

Maybe I have been lucky to date and always had the finance for on-going support?
Best advice I can offer is to give the ELUTENG adapter a try. I can't promise it will work for you, but it's the best I've found in my limited testing. This appears to be the same one on Amazon UK. There is also another listing for a model with LED power and activity indicators. The pair I have do not have the LED indicators, and I have not tested the LED model.
Thank you for the link - I'll have a look at this for home use though I am not too worried about SD cards (photography is a hobby of mine) and run a NAS or two for backups. Anyway its only home data for fun here so I can loose it with no commercial impact :cry: :lol:

I did hunt in the boxes upstairs (oh boy - wish I did not do that) and found a small PNY case with a USB 3 adapter from an SSD upgrade a year or so ago and that worked fine with no power.

It was ID 154b:5678 PNY

The other one I've found is the VIA chipset again without external power but the adapter is a stupid design - a good 6cm deep and bolts, via two retaining holes, to the front two holes on the drive. Main killer though, is that the chips are all underneath the board and rub on the case bottom pushing the interface upwards by a good 5mm... Shame as it boots up fine.
Need Pi spray - these things are breeding in my house...

Return to “Troubleshooting”