Justwondering321
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:39 am

Gooseberry :( :( :(

Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:31 pm

Have you seen those idiots at http://gooseberry.atspace.co.uk/.... They have taken the Raspberry Pi and ruined it. Honestly, the back stabbers. Having a souped up version of the Pi is not what its about. Don't worry Raspberry pi... I will never go to the dark Gooseberry side. NEVER.... :x :x :x

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 23707
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:57 pm

Well, they've sold 500, so not exactly ruining the Raspberry Pi - what they do appear to have done is ruin some sort of cheap Chinese tablet, as that appears to be what the board is extracted from.Good luck to them I'd say. The more the merrier. Shame it's not a custom design like the Raspi, and hasn't got the same 'designed in the Uk' credentials, or indeed the user community. But it might!
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
"My grief counseller just died, luckily, he was so good, I didn't care."

Ravenous
Posts: 1956
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:01 pm
Location: UK

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:06 pm

Looks alright to me - their FAQ seems pretty honest about what it is and its limitations. It's looks bigger and more expensive than the pi but is worth a play for people interested.

Probably won't try one - again no VGA support (I am awash with VGA monitors) but the more affordable fruit in our diet the better.

User avatar
Montala
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:54 pm
Location: Herefordshire (U.K.)

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:26 pm

For some reason the above link didn't seem to work, so I will try another link: http://gooseberry.atspace.co.uk/

Yep... that one seems to work OK... not much traffic on their forums though... hardly surprising really! ;)

Nacho Vidal
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:24 pm

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:31 pm

Well... I'm one of the owners of these ARM board.

I hope that the forums will be soon populated, as the 500 boards reach their future owners.

I'm thinking on the "Gooseberry project" as a hacking project, rather than a Open Source one, and perhaps the major flaw is the lack of community and the absence of documentation (what are the 1000 pins of the board for? :S)

Silence
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:12 am

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:51 am

One thing I don't understand why there is so much hostility from the RPI biosphere to alternative boards ? It is not that the creators or suppliers of this board are being disrespectful. They just cater an other niche and even then, since when is competition bad ?

When looking up information about alternative boards sometimes I frequently stumble on this forum with a Google query because most of them has been discussed here also. But the threads are for most parts they are very hostile and "fanboy-ish" (which isn't a correct word, but I'm not a native English speaker so this is the best that I can come up with) to say the least.

I was under the impression that the RPI was about cheap computing devices and inspiring others to do the same. But from one the moment somebody seems to steal RPI thunder it is bad, the boards are getting scrutinized (while sorry the RPI isn't walhalla or perfect either) , etc. Be happy that there alternatives out there which makes it easier to experiment.

I personally find it interesting that there are alternatives out there, especially because for a particularly project I need some more punch then the RPI can deliver.

gritz
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:33 am

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:59 pm

Silence wrote:One thing I don't understand why there is so much hostility from the RPI biosphere to alternative boards ? It is not that the creators or suppliers of this board are being disrespectful. They just cater an other niche and even then, since when is competition bad ?

When looking up information about alternative boards sometimes I frequently stumble on this forum with a Google query because most of them has been discussed here also. But the threads are for most parts they are very hostile and "fanboy-ish" (which isn't a correct word, but I'm not a native English speaker so this is the best that I can come up with) to say the least.

I was under the impression that the RPI was about cheap computing devices and inspiring others to do the same. But from one the moment somebody seems to steal RPI thunder it is bad, the boards are getting scrutinized (while sorry the RPI isn't walhalla or perfect either) , etc. Be happy that there alternatives out there which makes it easier to experiment.

I personally find it interesting that there are alternatives out there, especially because for a particularly project I need some more punch then the RPI can deliver.
^^^This.^^^ :)

(Fair) competition is A Good Thing, as are slightly different products to suit different niches. "Fanboy-ish" behaviour helps no-one - it alienates pragmatists and if left to proliferate it creates a "love-in" in which no-one dare criticise a bug or poor feature. Development can then stagnate, so in the long run it's the fanboy that loses out as their precious product is overtaken by the competition. We all want products that actually work, don't we?

The Cult of the Fanboy is something I will never understand. Long live The Scientific Method! :D

rasbeer
Posts: 242
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:35 am

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:40 pm

gritz wrote:
Silence wrote: ^^^This.^^^ :)
Also this...

But that said, the Gooseberry looks a bit pricey now that you can get A10 tablets (with screens and all) for about USD75 shipped.

twocvbloke
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:11 pm
Location: Co. Durham, UK
Contact: Website

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:48 pm

And to think, the Pi could be seen as a copy of the Nano and Pico-ITX boards, even though the technology is different between the boards, but, every piece of tech has a big following and always has individuals who go a bit over the top when a rival comes along... :|

User avatar
scep
Posts: 1062
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:53 am

Gooseberry

Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:51 am

Good luck to them I say - the more people tinkering around with devices like this and learning about computing, electronics etc the better.

As to their forums - remember that this forum only had one member this time last year :)

User avatar
liz
Raspberry Pi Foundation Employee & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Foundation Employee & Forum Moderator
Posts: 5201
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:22 pm
Contact: Website

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:11 am

I'd be better disposed to the Gooseberry guys if they'd chosen a different name, had spent a little less time slagging off the Raspberry Pi in the press, and weren't making spurious (i.e. downright misleading) claims about being x3 as efficient as the Raspberry Pi. Hint: they're not. We're busy benchmarking at the moment against a bunch of A10 platforms, and while CPU is a bit of a wash, we're still streets ahead on graphics performance. I'll have a post about this for the front page when we're done, probably some time next week.

We genuinely, genuinely support the appearance of other small form-factor, low-cost devices. But I don't think I'm the only person who thinks that Gooseberry in particular is being less than sporting in the way they're marketing themselves.
Director of Communications, Raspberry Pi

portets
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:24 am

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:59 am

liz wrote:We're busy benchmarking at the moment against a bunch of A10 platforms, and while CPU is a bit of a wash, we're still streets ahead on graphics performance..
I assume you're optimizing with compiler flags?
And with the gooseberry people playing dirty, are you testing with an overclocked pi? ;)
(I heard r-pi's may soon come with a faster clock, so benchmarking that way isn't playing dirty imo)

robwriter
Posts: 114
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:26 pm

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:30 am

I thought their website offered a fair comparison, but I don't know what they've said in the press.

My take is the more the merrier. The hardware might not be as great as they suggest, but open source graphics drivers will go a long way towards overcoming this.

Still, they look they're a long way off the Pi in pretty much all respects right now, so I don't think anyone needs to worry!

FX4
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:39 pm

Re: Gooseberry

Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:18 pm

scep wrote:Good luck to them I say - the more people tinkering around with devices like this and learning about computing, electronics etc the better.

As to their forums - remember that this forum only had one member this time last year :)
We don't have a thumbs up smiley, but I agree. There are a lot of other low cost boards out there to tinker with. The Raspberry Pi comes in at such a low price you can tinker and blow them up without worrying about the cost or deploy them in some robotics project as controllers, etc. It's all good.

User avatar
reiuyi
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:59 pm
Contact: Website

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:05 pm

liz wrote:(i.e. downright misleading) claims about being x3 as efficient as the Raspberry Pi. Hint: they're not. We're busy benchmarking at the moment against a bunch of A10 platforms, and while CPU is a bit of a wash, we're still streets ahead on graphics performance. I'll have a post about this for the front page when we're done, probably some time next week.
As a multimedia device, A10 decodes h264 better (read: more fields per second) than bcm2835. That's its strong point, anyway.


I don't understand why this development board doesn't use VGA, though. A10 has all the pins for supporting VGA without external ICs. Allwinner surely is one of the better Chinese SoCs. No wonder they caused many other companies to go bankrupt and cause a mini-crisis in Chinese tablet market!

Relisys
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:30 am

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:23 pm

liz wrote: weren't making spurious (i.e. downright misleading) claims about being x3 as efficient as the Raspberry Pi. Hint: they're not.


I agree.
R-Pi CPU: 700 Mhz. (OC'd: 800 mhz) (stable)
Gooseberry: 1 Ghz. (OC'd: 1.2 Ghz) (stable)
700 Mhz x3=2.1 Ghz
How does the gooseberry havee three times as much processing power?
An dI thought the point of the R-Pi was to make a cheap computer fro kids to use, and to be easily replaced if it blows. I'd rather fork out 35$ for a replacement then 62$.

Max

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:15 pm

Relisys wrote:
liz wrote: weren't making spurious (i.e. downright misleading) claims about being x3 as efficient as the Raspberry Pi. Hint: they're not.


I agree.
R-Pi CPU: 700 Mhz. (OC'd: 800 mhz) (stable)
Gooseberry: 1 Ghz. (OC'd: 1.2 Ghz) (stable)
700 Mhz x3=2.1 Ghz
How does the gooseberry havee three times as much processing power?
You cannot compare the Mhz directly when comparing different processors, because they get a different amount of work done inside a clock cycle, and the A10 has a more extensive instruction set.

Wouldn't surprise me if the x3 claim was actually correct.
At least as far as the CPU goes.
Discussion about the GPU is mostly theoretical as long as applications (other than three games and XBMC) do not use the acceleration in practice.

Of course, the Pi does have other things the Gooseberry doesn't have.
E.g. Ethernet.
I'd rather fork out 35$ for a replacement then 62$.
Pi + power supply + flash + tax = $ 64.13 at RS excluding shipping.
So same price category.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 23707
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:44 pm

I believe (I stand to be corrected) that some of the claims multiply the number of cores by the clock frequency. Which is pretty naughty - A dual core 1GHz device is NOT a 2Ghz device. If the Raspi claimed that it would blow the A10 out of the water (it has a LOT more cores in the GPU).

Also, the A10 instruction set *is* more effective at the same Mhz, but not 3x more effective. About 1.3-1.5x I believe would be a more accurate figure.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
"My grief counseller just died, luckily, he was so good, I didn't care."

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 23707
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:46 pm

Max wrote:
I'd rather fork out 35$ for a replacement then 62$.
Pi + power supply + flash + tax = $ 64.13 at RS excluding shipping.
So same price category.
Not a valid comparison - we are talking replacement cost - the replacement cost for a Raspi is $35+tax+postage since you already have the power supply and other HW.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
"My grief counseller just died, luckily, he was so good, I didn't care."

User avatar
abishur
Posts: 4477
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:10 am
Location: USA
Contact: Website

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:38 pm

I tend to not care if there's another cheap, low powered board. Indeed, I'm quite supportive of those things. I *am*, however, perturbed by how they're presenting the board. Almost every page makes some dig at the Pi or the RPF and it seems like most the digs are really absurd! And that sort of stuff just isn't my cup of tea regardless of whether if a PC v Mac commercial or a politician. If the only way you can promote yourself is by attack the other guy... well frankly that says to me that you have no worthy substance of your own to stand on. :|
Dear forum: Play nice ;-)

gritz
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:33 am

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:17 pm

abishur wrote:I tend to not care if there's another cheap, low powered board. Indeed, I'm quite supportive of those things. I *am*, however, perturbed by how they're presenting the board. Almost every page makes some dig at the Pi or the RPF and it seems like most the digs are really absurd! And that sort of stuff just isn't my cup of tea regardless of whether if a PC v Mac commercial or a politician. If the only way you can promote yourself is by attack the other guy... well frankly that says to me that you have no worthy substance of your own to stand on. :|
I couldn't agree more. "Those other guys are garbage" translates to "We're no better, except at manipulating stats." Still, as consumers (of politics and hardware) I guess that we get the benchmarks that we deserve.

Why are some folks so obsessed with the odd 10% here and there when there are much more important considerations (like how well suited it is to your chosen application)? It's all a bit sad really. I guess that they are the same people who buy a £3 charger from ebay and then express surprise when it bursts into flames.

The day I believe a benchmark that I haven't done myself is the day that I vote for a guy simply because he has the nicest haircut. ;)

Max

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:27 pm

jamesh wrote: Also, the A10 instruction set *is* more effective at the same Mhz, but not 3x more effective. About 1.3-1.5x I believe would be a more accurate figure.
If we would assume 1.4x per Mhz, and a 1.5x higher Mhz (1,2 Ghz vs 800 mhz, both are single core), that would give 1.4 * 1.5 = 2.1x
Is indeed lower than 3x for performance (at least on CPU alone, not sure what the RAM does), but still significant.

jamesh wrote: Not a valid comparison - we are talking replacement cost - the replacement cost for a Raspi is $35+tax+postage since you already have the power supply and other HW.
Fair enough.
Although I think one can break both the SD card and Pi by dropping it the "right" way, I'm not going to try it out ;)

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 23707
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:50 pm

Max wrote:
jamesh wrote: Also, the A10 instruction set *is* more effective at the same Mhz, but not 3x more effective. About 1.3-1.5x I believe would be a more accurate figure.
If we would assume 1.4x per Mhz, and a 1.5x higher Mhz (1,2 Ghz vs 800 mhz, both are single core), that would give 1.4 * 1.5 = 2.1x
Is indeed lower than 3x for performance (at least on CPU alone, not sure what the RAM does), but still significant.
I agree - it is a significant improvement, just not as significant as some imply (I'm not saying the gooseberry people say it - I don't know).

Real performance comes from combining the GPU and the Arm in the best way possible. But then, I grew up with a 2MHz BBC micro which worked pretty well for learning on.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
"My grief counseller just died, luckily, he was so good, I didn't care."

gritz
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:33 am

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:23 pm

So, back to speculating about abstract numbers, rather than core functionality / practicality / effectiveness in the real world of the whole assembly.

Apples v. oranges - the question is not "Which rulez the benchmarks?", but rather "Do I want to make cider, or sauce for my roast duck?"

Geeks, eh? :lol:

User avatar
mahjongg
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 12242
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:19 am
Location: South Holland, The Netherlands

Re: Gooseberry :( :( :(

Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:32 pm

IMHO, the more the better (alternative computing platforms that is).

AFAIK the foundation, the same applies to them.

As for myself, I think that any deviation from standard x86 platforms is an enrichment.

Return to “Off topic discussion”