jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
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Re: RPI3 USB Hardware Bug?

Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:45 pm

user12345 wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:35 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:45 am
If we didn't care we wouldn't have spent the last week debugging odd ethernet issues on the Pi3b+, or investigating a Wifi bug, or any other of the myriad things we do every day to make the product work better. In fact, I think you would be hard pressed to find a more dedicated team. Just because your very specific issue has not yet been solved, does not mean we are all sitting back doing nothing. It just means, in our list of stuff that needs fixing, its not very high on the list. It's not even our HW or driver!
I reported the Bug in March 2018, the Bug exists at least since RPI3 exists(tryed old Kernels).
RPI2/3 is advertised to support Wifi sticks and special to support MY wifi sticks:
https://elinux.org/RPi_USB_Wi-Fi_Adapters
It doesnt help me much if you fix new Hardware while old is still broken.
We do not guarantee any particular third party USB device will work, mainly because we don't design them or write the drivers for them so will probably not be able to fix them anyway. We have plenty of our own issues to deal with so why should we fix other people defective software before fixing our own*?! Have you reported this issue to the actual maintainers of the Linux driver, i.e. the people who actually wrote the software in the first place?

The elinux website is nothing to do with us btw. We don't moderate content on it, or even read it.


* We sometimes will do so if it of benefit to our user base, but it's very rare and would require a large number of people to be having an issue for it to be more important than, for example, fixing network issues in the onboard Wifi, when we sell 5M of those a year.
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jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
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Re: RPI3 USB Hardware Bug?

Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:48 pm

user12345 wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:43 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:37 pm
Just tried dolphin and kwrite on my 3B+ running latest Raspbian plus kernel 4.14.50, both worked fine.
4.14 from April. All images are missing if you run it as root. (both required in root mode). I made photos but already deleted it.
With lastest wheezy it works.
Sorry, don't know what you mean by all images are missing? You have to install kwrite and dolphin - they are not there as standard.

Code: Select all

sudo apt install kwrite dolphin
Just tried running kwrite as root, worked fine. Dolphin ran, but was missing icons, which appears to be a KDE bug here https://askubuntu.com/questions/690201/ ... n-on-15-10
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user12345
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:06 pm

Re: RPI3 USB Hardware Bug?

Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:08 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:45 pm
We do not guarantee any particular third party USB device will work, mainly because we don't design them or write the drivers for them so will probably not be able to fix them anyway. We have plenty of our own issues to deal with so why should we fix other people defective software before fixing our own*?! Have you reported this issue to the actual maintainers of the Linux driver, i.e. the people who actually wrote the software in the first place?
For 3B+ ist our new own hardware thats out before the old one is working(of cause this bug is on rpi2/3 so it will be on 3B+ too).
There is only a mail adress from 2009 seems not one of the peoples that make changes on the source 2017/18, and as i told it works on 5 other operating systems on 5 other Hardwares 24/7 they would tell me "ask the raspbian developers is not our fault".

Just for fun lets assume its the driver, why you dont supply the working one that comes with 3.12(rpi1/bananaPI)? If its not a RPI2/3 specific Hardware/USB/USB-Driver Bug it would fix the bug.

jamesh
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Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
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Re: RPI3 USB Hardware Bug?

Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:25 pm

user12345 wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:08 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:45 pm
We do not guarantee any particular third party USB device will work, mainly because we don't design them or write the drivers for them so will probably not be able to fix them anyway. We have plenty of our own issues to deal with so why should we fix other people defective software before fixing our own*?! Have you reported this issue to the actual maintainers of the Linux driver, i.e. the people who actually wrote the software in the first place?
For 3B+ ist our new own hardware thats out before the old one is working(of cause this bug is on rpi2/3 so it will be on 3B+ too).
There is only a mail adress from 2009 seems not one of the peoples that make changes on the source 2017/18, and as i told it works on 5 other operating systems on 5 other Hardwares 24/7 they would tell me "ask the raspbian developers is not our fault".

Just for fun lets assume its the driver, why you dont supply the working one that comes with 3.12(rpi1/bananaPI)? If its not a RPI2/3 specific Hardware/USB/USB-Driver Bug it would fix the bug.
We've sold millions of 2's and 3's. If there was a big problem with the USB hardware (underlying SoC USB is the same on ALL models of Pi), I think we would have noticed by now. The fact there is ONLY a problem with this particular stick and this particular driver indicates to me that its that stick and/or driver, perhaps in combination with the current Raspbian USB stack. A stack that works fine with almost everything else.

Since you have been told to approach the Raspbian devs, as a Raspbian dev the best I can suggest is that we won't be looking in to this in the near future so the best best is to purchase a different stick. It will be much quicker, this sort of bugs can takes months to find even if you know the software (and we don't), the little nano sticks are very cheap, and I've never had any problems with them.

As for supplying drivers from very old kernel releases from other devices, they are not binary API compatible (kernel API's change over time), so would need to be updated to work with our latest kernel. It also fairly certain they will be more buggy than the current ones - bugs generally reduce with time.
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user12345
Posts: 61
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Re: RPI3 USB Hardware Bug?

Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:23 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:25 pm
We've sold millions of 2's and 3's. If there was a big problem with the USB hardware (underlying SoC USB is the same on ALL models of Pi), I think we would have noticed by now. The fact there is ONLY a problem with this particular stick and this particular driver indicates to me that its that stick and/or driver, perhaps in combination with the current Raspbian USB stack. A stack that works fine with almost everything else.

Since you have been told to approach the Raspbian devs, as a Raspbian dev the best I can suggest is that we won't be looking in to this in the near future so the best best is to purchase a different stick. It will be much quicker, this sort of bugs can takes months to find even if you know the software (and we don't), the little nano sticks are very cheap, and I've never had any problems with them.

As for supplying drivers from very old kernel releases from other devices, they are not binary API compatible (kernel API's change over time), so would need to be updated to work with our latest kernel. It also fairly certain they will be more buggy than the current ones - bugs generally reduce with time.
The Topic is so long, maybe you forgot already that i tryed different wifi stick´s already. The "nano sticks" are useless, they have a VERY short Range. Of course they would only capture 10% of the Traffic and that means crash less often.
But cause the same stick´s runs 24/7 on rpi1/bananapi/backtrack/kali the driver is already out of question.

RPI1 works 24/7 over years without an wifi issue, it too works with Dolphin/Kwrite. I doesnt share "bugs generally reduce with time".

By the way if you would make the Kernel Open Source other people could look what bugs you build in and maybe help to fix some.

jamesh
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Re: RPI3 USB Hardware Bug?

Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:01 pm

user12345 wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:23 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:25 pm
We've sold millions of 2's and 3's. If there was a big problem with the USB hardware (underlying SoC USB is the same on ALL models of Pi), I think we would have noticed by now. The fact there is ONLY a problem with this particular stick and this particular driver indicates to me that its that stick and/or driver, perhaps in combination with the current Raspbian USB stack. A stack that works fine with almost everything else.

Since you have been told to approach the Raspbian devs, as a Raspbian dev the best I can suggest is that we won't be looking in to this in the near future so the best best is to purchase a different stick. It will be much quicker, this sort of bugs can takes months to find even if you know the software (and we don't), the little nano sticks are very cheap, and I've never had any problems with them.

As for supplying drivers from very old kernel releases from other devices, they are not binary API compatible (kernel API's change over time), so would need to be updated to work with our latest kernel. It also fairly certain they will be more buggy than the current ones - bugs generally reduce with time.
The Topic is so long, maybe you forgot already that i tryed different wifi stick´s already. The "nano sticks" are useless, they have a VERY short Range. Of course they would only capture 10% of the Traffic and that means crash less often.
But cause the same stick´s runs 24/7 on rpi1/bananapi/backtrack/kali the driver is already out of question.

RPI1 works 24/7 over years without an wifi issue, it too works with Dolphin/Kwrite. I doesnt share "bugs generally reduce with time".

By the way if you would make the Kernel Open Source other people could look what bugs you build in and maybe help to fix some.
Er what? The Raspberry Pi kernel has been open source since the release of the pi one so I'm not quite sure why you think it's closed.

You may have missed it in the post above but in my tests dolphin and Kwrite both work perfectly well on the latest model pis with the latest stretch.
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user12345
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Re: RPI3 USB Hardware Bug?

Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:50 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:01 pm

Er what? The Raspberry Pi kernel has been open source since the release of the pi one so I'm not quite sure why you think it's closed.

You may have missed it in the post above but in my tests dolphin and Kwrite both work perfectly well on the latest model pis with the latest stretch.
It is? I read the firmware is closed source in the internet. Where can i find the source for it? Means lowlevel stuff like usb drivers for the onboard usb?

You told dolphin missing icons in root mode and link to a workaround. I told all work with PI1 and a old kernel, pointing to new introduced Bugs.

I got an answer from an actual developer of the rt2800usb driver, he would suspect a bug in "USB host driver".

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Paeryn
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Re: RPI3 USB Hardware Bug?

Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:09 pm

user12345 wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:50 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:01 pm

Er what? The Raspberry Pi kernel has been open source since the release of the pi one so I'm not quite sure why you think it's closed.
It is? I read the firmware is closed source in the internet. Where can i find the source for it? Means lowlevel stuff like usb drivers for the onboard usb?
The code that the VC4 runs is closed-source but AFAIK the VC4 relinquishes its control of the USB (if it used it to boot from) before it starts the ARM cpu(s). From that point on all the USB handling is done on the ARMs through the Linux kernel drivers. The kernel source is where it always has been (quite probably from day 1) here
She who travels light — forgot something.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
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Re: RPI3 USB Hardware Bug?

Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:35 am

user12345 wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:50 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:01 pm

Er what? The Raspberry Pi kernel has been open source since the release of the pi one so I'm not quite sure why you think it's closed.

You may have missed it in the post above but in my tests dolphin and Kwrite both work perfectly well on the latest model pis with the latest stretch.
It is? I read the firmware is closed source in the internet. Where can i find the source for it? Means lowlevel stuff like usb drivers for the onboard usb?

You told dolphin missing icons in root mode and link to a workaround. I told all work with PI1 and a old kernel, pointing to new introduced Bugs.

I got an answer from an actual developer of the rt2800usb driver, he would suspect a bug in "USB host driver".
Firmware != Linux.

The entirety of the Linux software is available on our github page. https://github.com/raspberrypi/linux. This includes the Linux drivers for things like the ethernet and wireless chips, AND the USB stack.

The firmware that runs on the VC4 GPU is closed source. The RPF has access to that and it is modified fairly frequently. You do not usually need access to this.

The firmware that runs on the wireless HW (brcmfmac) is closed source - we do not have access to that, any changes to that are done by Cypress the supplier of the chip. If we have a problem we have a reporting system with Cypress.
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Pilotnbr1
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Re: RPI3 USB Hardware Bug?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:18 pm

user12345 wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:50 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:01 pm

Er what? The Raspberry Pi kernel has been open source since the release of the pi one so I'm not quite sure why you think it's closed.

You may have missed it in the post above but in my tests dolphin and Kwrite both work perfectly well on the latest model pis with the latest stretch.
It is? I read the firmware is closed source in the internet. Where can i find the source for it? Means lowlevel stuff like usb drivers for the onboard usb?

You told dolphin missing icons in root mode and link to a workaround. I told all work with PI1 and a old kernel, pointing to new introduced Bugs.

I got an answer from an actual developer of the rt2800usb driver, he would suspect a bug in "USB host driver".
Did you ever find a fix? Similar problem with pi 3b+ running multiple WiFi cards on 4.14

With 3 ath9k cards the pi crashes after 30 min. With 2 it crashes in over an hour. Does not happen on a 3b.

Doing more testing and will try to get some logs...

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
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Re: RPI3 USB Hardware Bug?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:37 pm

Pilotnbr1 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:18 pm
user12345 wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:50 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:01 pm

Er what? The Raspberry Pi kernel has been open source since the release of the pi one so I'm not quite sure why you think it's closed.

You may have missed it in the post above but in my tests dolphin and Kwrite both work perfectly well on the latest model pis with the latest stretch.
It is? I read the firmware is closed source in the internet. Where can i find the source for it? Means lowlevel stuff like usb drivers for the onboard usb?

You told dolphin missing icons in root mode and link to a workaround. I told all work with PI1 and a old kernel, pointing to new introduced Bugs.

I got an answer from an actual developer of the rt2800usb driver, he would suspect a bug in "USB host driver".
Did you ever find a fix? Similar problem with pi 3b+ running multiple WiFi cards on 4.14

With 3 ath9k cards the pi crashes after 30 min. With 2 it crashes in over an hour. Does not happen on a 3b.

Doing more testing and will try to get some logs...
Most likely to be an issue with the atheros driver. ISTR drivers in the past that failed when you ran more than a couple of instances of them, cannot remember which manufacturer though.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
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user12345
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:06 pm

Re: RPI3 USB Hardware Bug?

Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:27 pm

Pilotnbr1 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:18 pm

Did you ever find a fix? Similar problem with pi 3b+ running multiple WiFi cards on 4.14

With 3 ath9k cards the pi crashes after 30 min. With 2 it crashes in over an hour. Does not happen on a 3b.

Doing more testing and will try to get some logs...
I rewrote airodump-ng to restart the interface if it gets no new packets after some time.
With the most developers its not worth to report a bug and explain that the problem is not on your site.
They are stubborn and assume they make no errors or swap the fault around.
So i live with it, i only see the problem in the crash log like:
channel hopper task: Main task is crashed or frozen 18.05.2019 20:49:03 5882089 5882089
channel hopper task: Main task is crashed or frozen 29.05.2019 12:43:10 2331329 2331329

But in newer Raspbian Versions(Stretch) they are more heavy bugs, on RPI3&PI Zero W with mt7601u mini wifi stick it randomly
freeze and cant restart. I remember a developer here told me "use a mini stick they work fine".

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