Crazyhead
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Release: Multiple 64Bit OS 3bplus desktop&lite

Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:20 pm

For those who are interested, i just released the first pre-releases of the raspbian !BASED! desktop&lite version on a 4.14 aarch64 kernel, and an updated version of Bamarni desktop&lite version also running on a 4.14 64bit kernel.

Both are also booting on the 3b plus.

For those who want to give it a try:
https://github.com/Crazyhead90/pi64/releases

Someone mentioned getting an error with apt-get upgrade and libreoffice on Bamarni.
If this happens, reflash Bamarni to your SD and purge libreoffice before you update/upgrade your system:

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get purge libreoffice*
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get upgrade -y
Image

Dont mind the sourcefiles or other files you find in my repo's they are not related to the release file. I tweaked it on my VMware ubuntu and just uploaded on my github so i could share it.

Credits are of course for the Raspberry/Raspbian team and for Bamarni for the initial releases, i simply did a couple small tweaks to change the kernel version and in Bamarni's cause, make it bootable for the 3b plus.
Last edited by Crazyhead on Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:19 pm, edited 10 times in total.

ShiftPlusOne
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Re: Release: Raspbian 64bit desktop

Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:30 pm

Pedantic note - That's not Raspbian, it's Debian.
...or it's not a 64 bit userland.
Last edited by ShiftPlusOne on Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Perhaps I'm wrong.

Crazyhead
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Re: Release: Raspbian 64bit desktop

Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:05 pm

ShiftPlusOne wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:30 pm
Pedantic note - That's not Raspbian, it's Debian.
I literally took the latest raspbian version from the download page and tweaked it to 64bit.
Did you actually flash it before replying?

https://i.gyazo.com/e62356bdb7204b6634b ... 1590ef.jpg

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Re: Release: Debian 64bit desktop

Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:36 pm

Raspbian is 32-bit, so this is NOT Raspbian, its your own brew, please don't muddle the water.

Give it a name that clearly distinguishes it from plain old Raspbian, as provided by the RPF.

Also "Debian 64bit desktop" is confusing, as it looks too much like the x86 Debian we release with the raspberry PI desktop, and at first I thought you were referring to that.

Names are important.

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Re: Release: Debian 64bit desktop

Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:38 pm

mahjongg wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:36 pm
Raspbian is 32-bit, so this is NOT Raspbian, its your own brew, please don't muddle the water.

Give it a name that clearly distinguishes it from plain old Raspbian, as provided by the RPF.

Also "Debian 64bit desktop" is confusing, as it looks too much like the x86 Debian we release with the raspberry PI desktop, and at first I thought you were referring to that.

Names are important.
I didnt rename it to debian, the previous mod did that. Can i name it like this than?

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Re: Release: Raspbian 64bit desktop

Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:52 pm

Crazyhead wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:05 pm
ShiftPlusOne wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:30 pm
Pedantic note - That's not Raspbian, it's Debian.
I literally took the latest raspbian version from the download page and tweaked it to 64bit.
Did you actually flash it before replying?

https://i.gyazo.com/e62356bdb7204b6634b ... 1590ef.jpg
No, I'm happy with 32bit for now. I only skimmed through the repo you linked and saw that it's using Debian sources:
https://github.com/Crazyhead90/pi64/blo ... all.go#L77
I'm also aware of the fact that Raspbian is an ARMv6 hfp rebuild of Debian, so it by definition cannot be 64 bit.

Unless, you didn't use that repo to generate the image, but took the existing image and added a 64bit kernel. In which case, fair enough, but then the 'Raspbian' part of it is 32 bit and calling it 64 bit is somewhat confusing.

Anyway. I didn't edit the post or mean to sidetrack it.

Edit: On closer inspection, it does seem to be 32 bit Raspbian with a 64 bit kernel.

Crazyhead
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Re: Release: Raspbian 64bit desktop

Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:58 pm

ShiftPlusOne wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:52 pm
Crazyhead wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:05 pm
ShiftPlusOne wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:30 pm
Pedantic note - That's not Raspbian, it's Debian.
I literally took the latest raspbian version from the download page and tweaked it to 64bit.
Did you actually flash it before replying?

https://i.gyazo.com/e62356bdb7204b6634b ... 1590ef.jpg
No, I'm happy with 32bit for now. I only skimmed through the repo you linked and saw that it's using Debian sources:
https://github.com/Crazyhead90/pi64/blo ... all.go#L77
I'm also aware of the fact that Raspbian is an ARMv6 hfp rebuild of Debian, so it by definition cannot be 64 bit.

Unless, you didn't use that repo to generate the image, but took the existing image and added a 64bit kernel. In which case, fair enough, but then the 'Raspbian' part of it is 32 bit and calling it 64 bit is somewhat confusing.

Anyway. I didn't edit the post or mean to sidetrack it.

Edit: On closer inspection, it does seem to be 32 bit Raspbian with a 64 bit kernel.
Did you also read the last line on the first post?

"Dont mind the sourcefiles or other files you find in my repo's they are not related to the release file. I tweaked it on my VMware ubuntu and just uploaded on my github so i could share it."

I did download the latest image of raspbian and mounted it and edited the kernel

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Re: Release: Raspbian !BASED! 64bit desktop

Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:22 pm

Yup, 64 bit kernel, 32 bit userland. Got it. Thanks for clarifying.

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Re: Release: Raspbian !BASED! 64bit desktop

Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:40 pm

ShiftPlusOne wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:22 pm
Yup, 64 bit kernel, 32 bit userland. Got it. Thanks for clarifying.
This seems like a nice combination as it allows keeping the 32-bit proprietary parts of Raspbian such as Minecraft and Mathematica.

How hard would it be to get a 64-bit C compiler running?

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Re: Release: Raspbian !BASED! 64bit desktop

Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:13 pm

I like the Raspbian naming problem.
While the Techs like to correct, a lot in the Foundation have posted x86 as Raspbian as it's just easier and less convoluted then the long official naming.

Personally I think, as i'm sure many do, that Raspbian is the brand for the RaspberryPi user experience OS with the RaspberryPi Desktop look now, and not just a technicality.of the underlying V6 OS.

Time to move on and get with the branding
Raspbian Pi version
Raspbian x86 version

Much like Windows is a brand for whatever it runs underneath, be it x86, AMD64 or ARM64, Server, Desktop, CE, IoT etc.

So much easier for the Educators and Teachers to call it nd explain it as that ;-)

Anyways, just my browsing tuppence.

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Re: Release: Raspbian !BASED! 64bit desktop

Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:03 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:13 pm
I like the Raspbian naming problem.
While the Techs like to correct, a lot in the Foundation have posted x86 as Raspbian as it's just easier and less convoluted then the long official naming.

Personally I think, as i'm sure many do, that Raspbian is the brand for the RaspberryPi user experience OS with the RaspberryPi Desktop look now, and not just a technicality.of the underlying V6 OS.

Time to move on and get with the branding
Raspbian Pi version
Raspbian x86 version

Much like Windows is a brand for whatever it runs underneath, be it x86, AMD64 or ARM64, Server, Desktop, CE, IoT etc.

So much easier for the Educators and Teachers to call it nd explain it as that ;-)

Anyways, just my browsing tuppence.
I did not see any moderators call our x86 OS with a raspberry PI desktop for PC's and Macs "Raspbian", in fact when it was launched they were careful to make a distinction between the two. https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/stretc ... an-update/

It might be easy to call both OS's "Raspbian", but its also causing confusion, and is damaging to our brand-name.

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Re: Release: Raspbian !BASED! 64bit desktop

Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:02 am

mahjongg wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:03 pm
It might be easy to call both OS's "Raspbian", but its also causing confusion, and is damaging to our brand-name.
Maybe splicing the names in the other way so that Debraberry refers to the 64-bit version, while Raspbian refers only to the ARMv6 compatible 32-bit version, could preserve the brand and avoid further confusion.

When an operating system becomes available on different architectures, it often loses the architectural references from its name. For example VAX/VMS became OpenVMS after it started running on Alpha and Itanium based machines. OS/360 became MVS and z/OS. 386BSD became NetBSD and FreeBSD. In the case of Raspbian, the name of the Raspberry Pi computer and architecture is again included in the name. Just like you don't run VAX/VMS on a non-VAX computer, it makes no sense to run Raspbian on a non-Raspberry Pi computer.

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Re: Release: Raspbian !BASED! 64bit desktop

Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:32 am

haven't got a chance to try but I noticed your lite image is only 1/3 size of the official raspbian lite image (both zip and assuming same compression level setting)
Something probably went wrong

Crazyhead
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Re: Release: Raspbian !BASED! 64bit desktop

Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:58 am

lilunxm12 wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:32 am
haven't got a chance to try but I noticed your lite image is only 1/3 size of the official raspbian lite image (both zip and assuming same compression level setting)
Something probably went wrong
The file you were looking at was called "Bamarni" which is a distro based on debian 64, not the raspbian one.
I also added a Raspbian lite with a 64bit kernel in case you were looking for that.

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Re: Release: Raspbian !BASED! 64bit desktop

Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:43 am

ejolson wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:40 pm
ShiftPlusOne wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:22 pm
Yup, 64 bit kernel, 32 bit userland. Got it. Thanks for clarifying.
This seems like a nice combination as it allows keeping the 32-bit proprietary parts of Raspbian such as Minecraft and Mathematica.

How hard would it be to get a 64-bit C compiler running?
Probably the quickest (although not necessarily the best) way to achieve this, since running the OP's image you would be booted under an aarch64 kernel and so can interwork between 32-bit and 64-bit userland processes, would be to chroot into the rootfs of an existing 64-bit (userland) RPi3 image, and run the existing 64-bit gcc or clang compiler from there.

I have instructions for sort-of-the-reverse process (using a 64-bit Gentoo userland and chrooting into a 32-bit Raspbian rootfs) here (again, when booted under a 64-bit kernel, you can't do this with an aarch32 kernel, afaik):

You should be able to straightforwardly adapt the above chroot instructions to the use case of starting from a 32-bit Raspbian userland booted under a 64-bit kernel (as in the OP's image), and use e.g. my gentoo-on-rpi3-64bit's rootfs as the 'donor' 64-bit userland (ships with gcc-7.3.0 and clang-6 installed), or bamarni's pi64's rootfs, or openSUSE's rootfs etc. as the 'donor'.

Caveat: I assume that having an aarch32 init process (which you will have here) doesn't prevent you doing this, as it is still just userland, but hopefully someone on here can clarify this point for you (and me!).

Best, sakaki

PS you could also just set up a cross-compilation toolchain, of course, if you don't care about running the resulting 64-bit object code in-situ (or are statically linking).

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Re: Release: Multiple 64Bit OS desktop&lite

Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:29 pm

I've updated the release page with both the desktop and lite version of the Raspbian based 64bit kernel image.

I also updated Bamarni's desktop and lite images (https://github.com/bamarni/pi64/releases) to the current 4.14 64bit kernel and made them bootable for the pi3b plus.

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Re: Release: Raspbian !BASED! 64bit desktop

Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:21 pm

mahjongg wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:03 pm
I did not see any moderators call our x86 OS with a raspberry PI desktop for PC's and Macs "Raspbian", in fact when it was launched they were careful to make a distinction between the two. https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/stretc ... an-update/

It might be easy to call both OS's "Raspbian", but its also causing confusion, and is damaging to our brand-name.
I would argue that it is equally "damaging" to call it Raspberry Pi Desktop, because it really has little to do with the RPi hardware itself. So, really, the RPF (or whoever) needs to sit down and discuss what it is they want to brand. You have hardware, software, and systems, all of them are probably best served by different branding. Right now, it's all a bit jumbled together, and that confusion is what is most damaging.

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Re: Release: Raspbian 64bit desktop

Fri May 25, 2018 4:51 am

ShiftPlusOne wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:52 pm
it does seem to be 32 bit Raspbian with a 64 bit kernel.
Does Mathematica still work under the 64-bit kernel?

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Re: Release: Raspbian !BASED! 64bit desktop

Fri May 25, 2018 9:04 am

droleary wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:21 pm
mahjongg wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:03 pm
I did not see any moderators call our x86 OS with a raspberry PI desktop for PC's and Macs "Raspbian", in fact when it was launched they were careful to make a distinction between the two. https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/stretc ... an-update/

It might be easy to call both OS's "Raspbian", but its also causing confusion, and is damaging to our brand-name.
I would argue that it is equally "damaging" to call it Raspberry Pi Desktop, because it really has little to do with the RPi hardware itself. So, really, the RPF (or whoever) needs to sit down and discuss what it is they want to brand. You have hardware, software, and systems, all of them are probably best served by different branding. Right now, it's all a bit jumbled together, and that confusion is what is most damaging.
Interesting point. Eben decides this stuff. I'll ping him this thread.
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Re: Release: Multiple 64Bit OS 3bplus desktop&lite

Fri May 25, 2018 9:11 am

If I had my way, we'd call it a certain 5-letter word which was introduced to deal with this very issue, but a certain large technology company have decided that that word, in spite of being a standard computing term for 40 years or so, now belongs to them... :evil:

We've failed (not for want of trying) to come up with a better name than "Raspberry Pi Desktop" , but I'd be the first to admit that typing that all out is a pain. I think most people understand that "Raspbian" is shorthand for the operating system which includes our desktop environment, whether that be on ARM or x86.

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Re: Release: Multiple 64Bit OS 3bplus desktop&lite

Fri May 25, 2018 9:22 am

How about:

"Raspbian/XA" - that's a homage to MVS/XA - Multiple Virtual Storage / Extended Architecture (from 1981 onwards) which was IBM's switch from 24-bit mainframes to 31-bit mainframes (they used to 32nd bit as a 24/31 bit mode indicator).

"Raspbian64" works because it's not quite Raspbian.
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Re: Release: Multiple 64Bit OS 3bplus desktop&lite

Fri May 25, 2018 9:24 am

I think most people understand that "Raspbian" is shorthand for the operating system which includes our desktop environment, whether that be on ARM or x86.

Well, firstly the people (clearly not RPF/T) responsible for the Raspbian.Org website see it differently -
Raspbian is a free operating system based on Debian optimized for the Raspberry Pi hardware.

And secondly, since there is clearly a need to be able to distinguish between the two distinct hardware variants of the "Desktop environment", what unique naming system is proposed?


I realise that as the ux designer Simon is very close to this, but maybe it is also useful to recognise that many running instances of Raspbian on arm h/w do not in fact implement the RPF Desktop, but it is still useful to be able to identify the core Operating System that is being used. Maybe Raspbian and Desktop are not synonymous?

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Re: Release: Multiple 64Bit OS 3bplus desktop&lite

Fri May 25, 2018 9:43 am

I still like and do call it Raspbian x86.

It's easy, short and you know what desktop you'll be getting.

Simples for me, like many they don't care of the underlying stuff.
It's a brand name for their look and feel of OS.

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Re: Release: Multiple 64Bit OS 3bplus desktop&lite

Fri May 25, 2018 12:51 pm

B.Goode wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 9:24 am
And secondly, since there is clearly a need to be able to distinguish between the two distinct hardware variants of the "Desktop environment", what unique naming system is proposed?


I realise that as the ux designer Simon is very close to this, but maybe it is also useful to recognise that many running instances of Raspbian on arm h/w do not in fact implement the RPF Desktop, but it is still useful to be able to identify the core Operating System that is being used. Maybe Raspbian and Desktop are not synonymous?
I think the problem is less serious than you imply.

There are a multitude of Linuxes and desktop environments that can be run on x86 platforms, and realistically the only reason someone would choose to run ours instead of, say, vanilla Debian-x86, is to get our desktop environment; the Raspberry Pi Desktop is the USP of our x86 product and the only thing that differentiates it from the standard vanilla Debian image. So anyone talking about "Raspbian on x86" or similar is clearly talking about our desktop environment, as otherwise they wouldn't be using the word "Raspbian" at all. There is no actual confusion over the naming of this product; there is just an occasional lack of precision in the name used. (By myself, among others...)

On Pi itself, there are three main "Raspbian" products (ignoring things like NOOBS) - vanilla Raspbian, Raspbian with the Raspberry Pi Desktop, and Raspbian Lite. Both RPD and Lite are based on vanilla Raspbian, with different customisations. I note that I have never seen anyone complain about the name "Raspbian Lite", in spite of the fact that this is just as much an RPi-specific customisation of vanilla Raspbian as RPD is - nor have I ever seen anyone confused between Raspbian Lite and either of the other two variants.

So the only issue is how to distinguish vanilla Raspbian from Raspbian with the Raspberry Pi Desktop - officially, the image we offer for download from our site is "Raspbian with the Raspberry Pi Desktop" or "Raspbian with Desktop" for short. Given this and vanilla Raspbian are downloaded from completely different sites, and our download is clearly labelled as above, is there really that much scope for confusion?

I would be delighted to have a shorter name than "Raspbian with the Raspberry Pi Desktop" for our desktop product, which is why I attempted to introduce one a year or so ago. But it is surprisingly hard to come up with a catchy, short, descriptive name that eight other companies haven't already trademarked...

In summary - I don't believe there is any real *confusion* over the use of the word "Raspbian", any more than there is over the use of the word "hoover" to describe a vacuum cleaner. There is a lack of precision in the use of names which can be annoying to those who care deeply about such things, but as long as most people understand what they are downloading and installing, I am inclined to leave well alone.

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Re: Release: Multiple 64Bit OS 3bplus desktop&lite

Fri May 25, 2018 3:52 pm

B.Goode wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 9:24 am
And secondly, since there is clearly a need to be able to distinguish between the two distinct hardware variants of the "Desktop environment"
Is there? Or, rather, perhaps the issue is who needs to be making that distinction. From a branding perspective, it might not make much sense trying to get users to distinguish between what they see running on a PC and what they see on an RPi. I'm also thinking of systems like the Mac, which has made multiple hardware transitions over the years and is still called a Mac (and which has Darwin at is core, which is a "brand" that 99% of Apple device users probably have no idea exists).

Sure, we'll have to make technical distinctions at times, but when it comes to the general public and branding, things should be simplified in a way that makes sense. For most people, that means going from the outside in, so what they see is what they want to call something. The hardware it's ultimately running on is mostly an afterthought from that perspective.
spl23 wrote: So the only issue is how to distinguish vanilla Raspbian from Raspbian with the Raspberry Pi Desktop - officially, the image we offer for download from our site is "Raspbian with the Raspberry Pi Desktop" or "Raspbian with Desktop" for short. Given this and vanilla Raspbian are downloaded from completely different sites, and our download is clearly labelled as above, is there really that much scope for confusion?
It's not just about needless confusion, but coherent communication. There's a reason why Apple uses different names like XNU, Darwin, macOS, etc. They're not just different things, but of differing importance to different levels of users. The question that needs to be asked and answered is what different pieces of the RPi puzzle need to be distinguished to certain users. If that means using a new name for the core components that support the RPi hardware, it should be done. It's not "vanilla" Raspbian, it's something else. Whether or not that something else needs a special name a la Darwin (and/or XNU) depends a great deal on how the RPF wants different people to interact with the different parts of the system.
spl23 wrote: I would be delighted to have a shorter name than "Raspbian with the Raspberry Pi Desktop" for our desktop product, which is why I attempted to introduce one a year or so ago. But it is surprisingly hard to come up with a catchy, short, descriptive name that eight other companies haven't already trademarked...
But you must still keep in mind that "desktop" is generally synonymous with traditional PCs. As a GUI metaphor, the desktop just is; it only creates confusion when you call attention to it. What a better name might be depends on what the actual goal is. I still say that using "Raspberry Pi" in a brand name strongly implies something about the hardware rather than the software. If you want to brand the core software or just the GUI layer(s), a brand new name would be needed to add clarity.

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