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Burngate
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:52 pm

mahjongg wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:18 pm
hippy wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:11 pm
https://fccid.io/png.php?id=3777895&page=4
That's not an external antenna, its a connection to a spectrum analyzer.
Pardon my ignorance ... how is that different?
Photons come out of the Pi and travel down a coax cable.
With an antenna, they spray out the end, never to be seen again by the Pi (unless there's a mismatch, in which case they go back where they came from, but everyone tries very hard to avoid that)
With a spectrum analyser, they're absorbed in a resistor (plus other stuff), likewise never to be seen again.

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PeterO
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:01 pm

Burngate wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:52 pm
Pardon my ignorance ... how is that different?
The feed used for the spectrum analyser may only be a "sampling rf tap", taking only a small portion of the power and leaving the rest to be passed to the antenna.
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:14 pm

hippy wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:46 pm
Isn't it what they call a "uFL to SMA pigtail" or similar, which the spectrum analyser then connects to ?

The accompanying FCC test report may describe it in detail. I didn't check.
I had a look and couldn't find any description of the connector or cable. Only this -

"All measurements were made using a conducted link. The EUT has one external antenna port fitted for test purposes".

And, yes, I know that just because they (UL VS Ltd) call what they fitted an "external antenna port" it doesn't mean it was a port for an actual external antenna or that anyone should try and fit such a port themselves or anything similar, or use it for an external antenna connection.

cspan
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:38 pm

pi-man-uk1 wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:14 pm
just PSA with my earlier problems. About an hour ago I did sudo raspi-config, that updated stuff such that the old card booted fine in the new pi 3B+.

happy days, tks.
Unfortunately that was not my experience. I did an update / upgrade last night, and cloned my card. Then I put the (original) card into the new Pi.

The old card would not boot in my Pi 3 B+. I merely got the color screen (with a lightning bolt icon in the upper right) that never changed. The red LED flashed 4 times slowly, then 4 times fast, then repeated that.

Fortunately I had just backed up the card - cloning it - and so my old Pi 3 B can boot from that. But now I wonder whether the original card is fried. I suppose I can try to re-flash it with NOOBS / etcher etc., but then my all my tweaking is lost. Needless to say, I'm reluctant to try to boot the 3 B+ from my one remaining good card!

I wonder if I can even do a re-cloning the other direction. That SD card slot got quite hot from the first time, just about burned my finger.

Welcoming suggestions here ....

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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:49 pm

just tried to format the original system card (using official SD association formatter, as well as windows) and wow did it get hot again. Very quickly too, I might add. With the former, it got to 98% before failing. I guess it's been corrupted? Dang, that was easy. Just stick it in the new Pi 3 B+ and boom.

I guess I can understand why some people were eager to get USB booting working.

mfa298
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:58 pm

cspan wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:38 pm
pi-man-uk1 wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:14 pm
just PSA with my earlier problems. About an hour ago I did sudo raspi-config, that updated stuff such that the old card booted fine in the new pi 3B+.
Unfortunately that was not my experience. I did an update / upgrade last night, and cloned my card. Then I put the (original) card into the new Pi.

The old card would not boot in my Pi 3 B+. I merely got the color screen (with a lightning bolt icon in the upper right) that never changed. The red LED flashed 4 times slowly, then 4 times fast, then repeated that.
I believe that only works if you're existing Pi is running a stretch image. If it's still on Jessie (or Wheezy if you're really behind) then the update/upgrade won't get a recent enough update for the Pi 3B+.

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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:07 pm

mfa298 wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:58 pm
I believe that only works if you're existing Pi is running a stretch image. If it's still on Jessie (or Wheezy if you're really behind) then the update/upgrade won't get a recent enough update for the Pi 3B+.
I just did upgrade/update last night and it's on stretch.

Just learned about the lightning bolt thing - which under troubleshooting can mean inadequate power. But my power supply came with my 3B from Canakit, is 2.5A, so should be adequate.

I did have noobs on there (was running dual boot with Raspbian/LibreElec) and perhaps that's the problem - either with booting to the 3B+ or cloning? Ugh.

Trying to decide if I should still try to boot from SD card or go right to trying to set up USB boot. Either way I think I need to buy some more ... and hopefully not destroy any more in the process. I would hate to start from the beginning again, to set up stuff, but I don't want to destroy another card.

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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:01 am

cspan wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:07 pm
Just learned about the lightning bolt thing - which under troubleshooting can mean inadequate power. But my power supply came with my 3B from Canakit, is 2.5A, so should be adequate.
I think on the 3B+ the lightning bolt and it not booting can also mean the first bits of firmware (bootcode.bin) is too old.
cspan wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:07 pm
I did have noobs on there (was running dual boot with Raspbian/LibreElec) and perhaps that's the problem - either with booting to the 3B+ or cloning? Ugh.
That may be the issue, AIUI apt update/upgrade will update the OS set of files, it won't touch NOOBS, you'l also need to update NOOBS (I've never used it so cant help there)

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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:10 am

mfa298 wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:01 am
cspan wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:07 pm
Just learned about the lightning bolt thing - which under troubleshooting can mean inadequate power. But my power supply came with my 3B from Canakit, is 2.5A, so should be adequate.
I think on the 3B+ the lightning bolt and it not booting can also mean the first bits of firmware (bootcode.bin) is too old.
cspan wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:07 pm
I did have noobs on there (was running dual boot with Raspbian/LibreElec) and perhaps that's the problem - either with booting to the 3B+ or cloning? Ugh.
That may be the issue, AIUI apt update/upgrade will update the OS set of files, it won't touch NOOBS, you'l also need to update NOOBS (I've never used it so cant help there)
So should NOOBS users upgrading to 3 B+ be prepared to start from scratch, or go with a single boot option (like Raspbian)? Truth is I never used LibreElec much anyway, though I liked the fact that it handled HD better. My NOOBS did date from December so that may have been the issue.

Interesting side note, that MicroSD card overheated and cracked!

elicorrales
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:54 am

I notice the metal casing surfaces on the cpu (is the other one ..blue tooth? wifi? ) (in the corner between gpio and sdcard) aren't flush with each other.

I had previously bought a dual-fan heatsink for another Pi 3b, but then got the B+, thinking to use the dual-fan.... :(

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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:54 am

cspan wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:10 am
mfa298 wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:01 am
cspan wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:07 pm
Just learned about the lightning bolt thing - which under troubleshooting can mean inadequate power. But my power supply came with my 3B from Canakit, is 2.5A, so should be adequate.
I think on the 3B+ the lightning bolt and it not booting can also mean the first bits of firmware (bootcode.bin) is too old.
cspan wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:07 pm
I did have noobs on there (was running dual boot with Raspbian/LibreElec) and perhaps that's the problem - either with booting to the 3B+ or cloning? Ugh.
That may be the issue, AIUI apt update/upgrade will update the OS set of files, it won't touch NOOBS, you'l also need to update NOOBS (I've never used it so cant help there)
So should NOOBS users upgrading to 3 B+ be prepared to start from scratch, or go with a single boot option (like Raspbian)? Truth is I never used LibreElec much anyway, though I liked the fact that it handled HD better. My NOOBS did date from December so that may have been the issue.

Interesting side note, that MicroSD card overheated and cracked!
NOOBS needs to be updated another way, they still haven't an update mechanism in NOOBS. Shame as it's been a problem at every release.

From now on use the Etcher method and the image of Raspbian (or other distributions).

An overheating and cracking card could just have been bad luck, you may have fractured it somehow.
Similar thing happened a year or so back on a Samsung EVO card of mine.
Doubt it's anything to do with the 3B+ itself other than putting in and out the card from it.

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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:52 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:54 am
NOOBS needs to be updated another way, they still haven't an update mechanism in NOOBS. Shame as it's been a problem at every release.

From now on use the Etcher method and the image of Raspbian (or other distributions).

An overheating and cracking card could just have been bad luck, you may have fractured it somehow.
Similar thing happened a year or so back on a Samsung EVO card of mine.
Doubt it's anything to do with the 3B+ itself other than putting in and out the card from it.
Ah, 'twould have been nice to know that about NOOBS before attempting to migrate my boot card to the 3B+. I have since found it mentioned in an old thread, but only after I went digging. Might be good to have an easily migration/upgrade guide (perhaps a link in the product announcement), that calls attention to this consideration. If there is one, forgive me but I must have missed it.

Good to know about your EVO card - that was one I was going to consider instead, based on other member posts here. Sounds like no make is immune. That said I was very gratified (yet surprised) to hear back from SanDisk that they are going to approve my RMA and replace my card. Some other posts have described them taking opposite stance regarding cards used for boot. I guess I'll just have to see if it really comes about. Meanwhile, I'm currently formatting an old Class 6 MicroSD card to test the 3B+ and ensure it is not damaged. Maybe I'll change it to the replacement SanDisk Ultra if that comes through.

But I also want to think about USB boot. Some say they've used the same MicroSD card for months or years with no problem. Others say, if you're going to use the Pi as a kind of desktop computer, with lots of read/write, you should get an SSD or powered/spinning hard drive. Are these stances compatible? Might it be that those who use the same card for years are doing mostly read-only stuff, with the bulk of data handling done in RAM? Anyway my use is as a desktop replacement - either temporary, for when my old desktop finally dies, or perhaps longer if an active Meltdown or Spectre exploit gets into the wild and my machine is truly not secure enough to use. So for desktop replacement, perhaps I shouldn't be doing MicroSD boot anyway. A prolific poster here - I forget who, maybe DougieLawson - said they have multiple RPi units and all are on USB boot. When I read that, I thought, "maybe that implies MicroSD boot is not the way to go if you can at all avoid it." Of course, it could just be his use case. Still ...

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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:17 pm

I'm not a prolific poster, but my 3xRPi are all running from USB, I trust it more than those tiny little micro SD cards. :D

I only used my micro SD card to boot my first RPi3, until I got it set up to boot from USB pendrives, then I set the OTP bit straight off on my second one. ;)
(The RPi3B+ comes ready set, of course.)

I still haven't decided on the best way, for my purposes, how to use my external hard drives, self powered with their own supply or through a USB hub, both ways work OK. 8-)

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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:28 pm

All mine use SD and don't have problems, and they get the power pulled on them most of the time.
Mainly Samsung's EVO /EVO plus but some class 10 Kingstons.
All running with the SD card overclock (they are all UHS1 iirc ).

When you do get the card and you're using it at the desktop.
Use it, it makes quite a difference with a nice fast card.

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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:25 am

k-pi wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:17 pm
I'm not a prolific poster, but my 3xRPi are all running from USB, I trust it more than those tiny little micro SD cards. :D

I only used my micro SD card to boot my first RPi3, until I got it set up to boot from USB pendrives, ...
Is there any reason to trust a USB pendrive (aka USB flash drive) over a microSD card? Aren't they both flash memory, subject to the problems of flash memory with none of the compensating tech found in more expensive SSDs?

If there is, the only thing I can guess is that the miniaturization for microSD makes the electronics more fragile, or susceptible to problems, than a USB flash drive stick. But I'm unaware of any data that shows a difference in failure rate between them.

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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:48 am

cspan wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:25 am
k-pi wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:17 pm
I'm not a prolific poster, but my 3xRPi are all running from USB, I trust it more than those tiny little micro SD cards. :D

I only used my micro SD card to boot my first RPi3, until I got it set up to boot from USB pendrives, ...
Is there any reason to trust a USB pendrive (aka USB flash drive) over a microSD card? Aren't they both flash memory, subject to the problems of flash memory with none of the compensating tech found in more expensive SSDs?

If there is, the only thing I can guess is that the miniaturization for microSD makes the electronics more fragile, or susceptible to problems, than a USB flash drive stick. But I'm unaware of any data that shows a difference in failure rate between them.
no they both are of the same tech, and IME µSD perform better - though you pays your moneuyu and takes your chances at whatever *rating* a usb stick will be compared to a µSD
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:57 am

Possibly SD cards are susceptible to damage due to them being slightly flexible, whereas most pendrives are rigid.

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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:15 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be better to boot from a USB connected hard drive, SSD even? I would think that is more in lines with why this option was added. Hardly seems worth wile doing if all your going to do is plug in a thumb drive? Just my 2 cents on the subject.

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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:18 pm

alphanumeric wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:15 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be better to boot from a USB connected hard drive, SSD even? I would think that is more in lines with why this option was added. Hardly seems worth wile doing if all your going to do is plug in a thumb drive? Just my 2 cents on the subject.
yes - that's what I think also [spinning rust or large ssd]
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cspan
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:45 pm

alphanumeric wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:15 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be better to boot from a USB connected hard drive, SSD even? I would think that is more in lines with why this option was added. Hardly seems worth wile doing if all your going to do is plug in a thumb drive? Just my 2 cents on the subject.
I suppose it depends on what you consider better. So far, from what I can gather, it appears:

Longevity (high to low): HDD > SSD > Flash Drive >= microSD

size/weight (low to high): microSD > Flash Drive > SSD > portable HDD > desktop/powered HDD

Cost/GB (low to high): desktop/powered HDD > portable HDD >> flash drive >= microSD >> SSD

Speed to boot (low to high, my experience): microSD > USB Flash drive = USB-connected powered HDD. I haven't checked SSD or portable HDD.

Speed of various operations: too early for me to tell, but I think others have looked at this, and IIRC, SSD tops all USB-based solutions.

Data integrity: HDD > SSD > Flash >= microSD

The Pi was created to be an inexpensive learning tool, and they are absolutely committed to keeping it relatively inexpensive. One consequence of that (direct or indirect) is that it is designed in such a way that one can make use of surplus computer accessories many people have in cabinets and closets - like a spare keyboard, mouse, monitor, speakers, ... and flash drives, microSD cards, etc. I suppose some have spare SSD drives as well, though I don't, and suspect that's not quite so common as having a spare HDD. In any case, while everyone is free to spend as much as they want on building up a system around the Pi, I feel it's in the spirit of the thing to make use of what I have laying about. At some level of spending one might well ask why not just start with a more capable board/chipset - more RAM, more graphics processing, say. [one fair answer is - the Pi is a darn good board, and hey, not being susceptible to Meltdown or Spectre is nothing to sneeze at!]

mfa298
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:49 pm

cspan wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:25 am
k-pi wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:17 pm
I'm not a prolific poster, but my 3xRPi are all running from USB, I trust it more than those tiny little micro SD cards. :D

I only used my micro SD card to boot my first RPi3, until I got it set up to boot from USB pendrives, ...
Is there any reason to trust a USB pendrive (aka USB flash drive) over a microSD card? Aren't they both flash memory, subject to the problems of flash memory with none of the compensating tech found in more expensive SSDs?
That's my understanding - I think I might also have more dead USB drives than SD cards (but then I buy SD cards that I have some confidence in and some of the USB drives aren't of such high quality)
alphanumeric wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:15 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be better to boot from a USB connected hard drive, SSD even? I would think that is more in lines with why this option was added. Hardly seems worth wile doing if all your going to do is plug in a thumb drive? Just my 2 cents on the subject.
Agreed.

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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:32 pm

I look at the USB boot initiative as a "forward looking" effort. Someday one might well expect to see faster USB on a Pi. *When* that happens, there will be a large, sharp improvement over booting and transferring data from USB devices as compared to SD cards. Until then, the advantages are the ones people have mentioned: higher reliability, greater capacity, lower cost per byte. Speed...some, but not much.

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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:20 pm

cspan wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:25 am
k-pi wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:17 pm
.....I only used my micro SD card to boot my first RPi3, until I got it set up to boot from USB pendrives, ...
Is there any reason to trust a USB pendrive (aka USB flash drive) over a microSD card? Aren't they both flash memory, subject to the problems of flash memory with none of the compensating tech found in more expensive SSDs?
Yes, but my main concern is more to do with the actual sizes, & the fact that I can swap pendrives easier than I can manipulate those fiddly little microSD cards. :D

I'm used to running various O/Ses on some of my other computers, I don't always want to install them, so I have several pendrives with different O/Ses on them, & just unplug one, then plug the other one in & boot up. ;)

aCuriousMind
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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:59 pm

Kindly forgive me if this question has already been addressed:

For over a year, I have been using a Pi 3B in the programming and construction of a robot I'm designing. So, I have been doing regular "apt-get update" and "apt-get upgrade" operations to keep my SD card up-to-date (and now running Stretch). I have also done many "apt-get install" operations to load the SD card with other software that supports the robot's Java programming.

So, can I take that Pi 3B SD card (or a clone of it), and install it into a new Pi 3B+, boot up, and keep on going? Perhaps with another "apt-get update" and "apt-get upgrade?

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Re: New Raspberry Pi model 3B+ 1.4 GHz, 330Mbit Ethernet, 802.11ac, PoE

Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:06 pm

aCuriousMind wrote: So, can I take that Pi 3B SD card (or a clone of it), and install it into a new Pi 3B+, boot up, and keep on going? Perhaps with another "apt-get update" and "apt-get upgrade?
Yes, you should be able to. Consider using 'dist-upgrade' instead of 'upgrade' if you get packages held back.

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