broe23
Posts: 903
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:35 pm
Location: Central IL
Contact: Website

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:12 am

AllanGH wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:12 pm
For those interested in the certification application documents, please refer to the following link:
https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ ... ABCB-RPI32
It is a moot point, because hacking the board on your own, is not breaking any regulations. Heathkit used to sell everything from breadboard breakout kits to Ham Radio Equipment, TV's and computers. The manufacturer that had the original board made, only have to live up to the rules for the FCC filing. The consumer can do what they want with that SBC, they just need to know that if they cause problems and get some Ham Radio operator next to them reporting interference as what happened with some Plasma TV's, you would only get a cease request by the Ham Radio operator if they can prove how the leakage happened.

All of this crying that it is illegal for what the OP is thinking about, the answer is that it is not illegal, because they are just looking at a idea of making the Pi to have a better wifi reception and would be no different than taking a desktop or laptop and hooking up a external antenna to a wifi card and placing that antenna where you get a better signal.

So the moral to the story boys and girls is, there is zero liability for what the OP wants to do, because it breaks zero laws.
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good.

Heater
Posts: 9224
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:32 am

broe23,
...there is zero liability for what the OP wants to do, because it breaks zero laws.
It's not clear what the OP want's to do except a general idea of getting more range from WIFI.
...hacking the board on your own, is not breaking any regulations
Feel free to hack what you like but certainly there are laws in most countries regarding creating EM interference, transmitting with out a licence, exceeding power levels in unlicensed bands etc, abusing protocols, etc.

If ones WIFI experiments end up jamming other peoples WIFI links then one may have a problem.

A I do agree that tweaking a Pi by adding a little antenna or whatever is unlikely to be noticed. Especially if you are far from your neighbors. I'd certainly be up for trying it.

But there are limits.

broe23
Posts: 903
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:35 pm
Location: Central IL
Contact: Website

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:11 am

Heater wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:32 am
broe23,
...there is zero liability for what the OP wants to do, because it breaks zero laws.
It's not clear what the OP want's to do except a general idea of getting more range from WIFI.
...hacking the board on your own, is not breaking any regulations
Feel free to hack what you like but certainly there are laws in most countries regarding creating EM interference, transmitting with out a licence, exceeding power levels in unlicensed bands etc, abusing protocols, etc.

If ones WIFI experiments end up jamming other peoples WIFI links then one may have a problem.

A I do agree that tweaking a Pi by adding a little antenna or whatever is unlikely to be noticed. Especially if you are far from your neighbors. I'd certainly be up for trying it.

But there are limits.
Once again, the authorities are not going to come after you if you are using the Hats or Breadboards to hack something together to make a better mousetrap. That is why I and thousands of others who grew up during the Home Brew Computer days, are not running around with tinfoil on our heads. At this point it is fear mongering by you and others that are so worried that there is some obscure law that is not there, that is being broken. If the OP finds a way to hook up a external antenna, they are fine. Yes it can mess with the chipset for wifi and Bluetooth, since they use that antenna section on the board. They would be better off using a USB adapter or this. https://hackaday.com/2016/03/18/hacking ... r-more-db/
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good.

Heater
Posts: 9224
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:32 am

broe23,
Once again, the authorities are not going to come after you if you are using the Hats or Breadboards to hack something together to make a better mousetrap.
Once again... I agree that in the vast majority of cases hacking on Hats, breadboards and other such electronics is not going to get you into any legal trouble.

However, when it comes to radio emissions there are laws and limits. It would be a simple matter to hack a Pi with WIFI such that it makes WIFI unusable for everyone in a Starbucks, for example.

In the extreme ones "better mousetrap" might be a DIY cell phone base station. See what trouble that can get you into.
That is why I and thousands of others who grew up during the Home Brew Computer days, are not running around with tinfoil on our heads.
I don't run around with tin foil on my head either. Apart from looking silly it would do a very poor job of keeping EM radiation out of my brain.

Speaking of growing up. When I was 13 or so our idea of "hacking" was building transmitters and receivers with vacuum tubes. There were no computers available to us back then. A few of us did get into trouble for transmitting what we should not.

These laws are not obscure at all.

Did you notice that the article you linked to ends with "NOTE: This hack definitely falls into “Don’t try this at home” territory. Messing with antennas voids the warranty and FCC certification for the Pi, and can cause all sorts of signal-related unpleasantness if you aren’t careful." ?

Having said all that I do agree that one is unlikely to get into any trouble or even be noticed for tweaking ones Pi WIFI. I'd certainly be up for that kind of experiment.

PiGraham
Posts: 3212
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:37 pm
Location: Waterlooville

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:18 am

broe23 wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:11 am
]Once again, the authorities are not going to come after you if you are using the Hats or Breadboards to hack something together to make a better mousetrap. That is why I and thousands of others who grew up during the Home Brew Computer days, are not running around with tinfoil on our heads. At this point it is fear mongering by you and others that are so worried that there is some obscure law that is not there, that is being broken.
You are wrong. There are laws controlling legal limits on radio emissions that define bands and effective radiated power and if you are operating outside the limits you are breaking the law and you could be prosecuted.
The chances of being caught or prosecuted may be small, I don't know. I suspect you would only get into trouble if you were reported by someone suffering interference from your equipment and that seems unlikely.

http://www.bitstorm.com/fcc-regulations/
Other than as used in accordance with a licence (or exemption), the use of radio equipment is illegal.
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/spectrum/radio ... nd-the-law
Last edited by PiGraham on Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

mfa298
Posts: 1156
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:18 am

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:14 am

broe23 wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:12 am
It is a moot point, because hacking the board on your own, is not breaking any regulations. Heathkit used to sell everything from breadboard breakout kits to Ham Radio Equipment, TV's and computers. The manufacturer that had the original board made, only have to live up to the rules for the FCC filing.
You seem to be getting confused that illegal must equal being caught, you also seem to be applying you own experience to another country (the OP and many of the people replying are based in the UK which isn't part of the USA (at least not yet).

Operating a transmitter (e.g. a wifi device) outside of the permitted rules (power level, frequency bands, amount of power falling outside of the permitted frequency band etc.) is illegal and becomes a lot more possible when you start modifying the RF part on a board. Maybe you won't get caught, maybe you'll be the unlucky one that gets a long sentence to make an example. If you were found to be outside of what's permitted and hadn't modified the board then you also have a good defence in the unlikely event that the authorities did visit.
broe23 wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:12 am
... what happened with some Plasma TV's, you would only get a cease request by the Ham Radio operator if they can prove how the leakage happened.
In the UK a few cases like that (and also for powerline adaptors) have resulted in visits from ofcom (the UK equivalent of the FCC for these purposes) and where they find interference it can result in those devices having to be replaced (there were several cases of BT having to replace PLT adaptors they had supplied to customers because of this).

Pithagoros
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:26 am

If you are running slightly over powered WiFi equipment then nobody is going to care. If you are transmitting out of band or with high power and somebody notices then you might get a letter asking you to stop, and if you persist then the authorities might get a bit stronger. A prosecution is unlikely.

If you are running a pirate FM station in 88-108MHz and bleeding all over the BBC FM channels then OFCOM will feel it worthwhile spending money getting after you and will take away your station equipment.

hippy
Posts: 3025
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:55 am

broe23 wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:12 am
All of this crying that it is illegal for what the OP is thinking about, the answer is that it is not illegal, because they are just looking at a idea of making the Pi to have a better wifi reception and would be no different than taking a desktop or laptop and hooking up a external antenna to a wifi card and placing that antenna where you get a better signal.
It is illegal to operate equipment which does not conform to the licensing requirements imposed by regulations and legislation.

Connecting an external antenna to a WiFi card or other device intended to facilitate an external antenna being fitted is not "no different" to modifying a Pi to take an external antenna, fitting that and using it.

hippy
Posts: 3025
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:13 pm

broe23 wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:11 am
At this point it is fear mongering by you and others that are so worried that there is some obscure law that is not there, that is being broken.
The law is there and is not obscure. In the UK -

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/spectrum/radio ... nd-the-law

Any radio equipment used in the UK must be licensed or exempt from licensing. To be exempted that equipment must operate within the constraints of the limits laid down by regulations.

Operating equipment in the UK without a license when a license is required, or operating equipment which is exempted outside the constraints of exemption, is illegal. Period.

Your saying it is otherwise does not make it so.

alphanumeric
Posts: 1464
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:17 pm
Location: Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:24 pm

I skimmed over a few posts so if this was already mentioned, my apologies. If you plan on doing the modification to add the external antenna, be advised its not very easy. I plan on doing that mod to one of my Pi Zero W's. I have the SMT connector waiting to be soldered on. It is very teeny tiny. You'll need good soldering skills to solder it on. And a magnifying glass to see what your doing. On the Zero W, the zero ohm resistor that needs to be moved is but a fly spec on the board. IMHO this mod is not for the faint of heart, or for those with just average soldering skills. If you fall into that category, a USB WIFI dongle with a real antenna is likely the way to go. Something like this maybe, https://www.adafruit.com/product/1030. I have two of them that I use in my older Pi's. They are plug and play with Raspbian.

User avatar
bensimmo
Posts: 2712
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:02 pm
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:10 pm

You all worry too much.
The police hardly come for shed break in or noise disturbance or stolen bikes and things and these are far more disruptive than someone modifying a bit of WiFi.

Get in with it, have a go. If it fails buy a new one.
If everyones Microwave ovens suddenly stop working in the area so be it.

It's fun.

---

Personally I've found power lines to be excellent,. You get Ethernet ports (mine have three ports).
You can also get WiFi on some too or add a Pi AP on the end.
You then have a nice local network with no wiring and no mess. Just two plug sockets used.

PiGraham
Posts: 3212
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:37 pm
Location: Waterlooville

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:36 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:10 pm
You all worry too much.

The point is not to do whatever illegal acts you can get away with. These laws exist for good purposes and it makes sense to comply with them to avoid interfering with other peoples' Wi-Fi and other equipment. Everyone benefits if we are not blasted with signals from every Wi-Fi AP for miles around running high gain antennas and illegal RF amplifiers. There are legal ways to solve the OP's problem.

User avatar
bensimmo
Posts: 2712
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:02 pm
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:09 pm

There are many ways, but I'll leave that for the OP to decide, not me.
They know their surroundings.

People park all over the pavements, it's not technically against the law until it gets to a point which is often crossed. Nothing is ever done about it police have no powers, councils don't care.
They're not going to care about one man in his shed.

More people are using mobile phones in their hand while driving death machines.
If someone comp

Mick has not replied since asking the question, he has the links and what too look at to give it a go and decide for himself :-)

Pithagoros
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:20 pm

PiGraham wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:36 pm
Everyone benefits if we are not blasted with signals from every Wi-Fi AP for miles around running high gain antennas and illegal RF amplifiers. There are legal ways to solve the OP's problem.
In context, if you doubled the RF ERP of a Pi using an after-market modification (so irrelevant the the Ofcom/FCC approval for the unmodified product) it still wouldn't be anywhere near the ERP of a decent access point with monopole antennae.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 8388
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:47 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:09 pm
They're not going to care about one man in his shed.
Until a neighbor/friend/relative who knows about it loses an argument with him and they report it.
More people are using mobile phones in their hand while driving death machines.
That is llegal where I live and people do get tickets for it.

Not quite the same thing (though the principle is similar) but I know of a case where a ham operator was bleeding into the TV broadcast spectrum. He was told about it and blew off the person who told him he needed to shield his transmitter better. So a recording was made and sent to the FCC. The next thing that happened was a group of Federal agents on his doorstep telling him (a) to shut down his transmitter until he properly shielded it, and (b) if he didn't he was going to lose his ham license. There was also the possibility of fines and prison.

So, the bottom line is: Don't mess with this unless you're willing to take the heat and remember that problems are just a complaint away at all times.

User avatar
bensimmo
Posts: 2712
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:02 pm
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:36 pm

Luckily the FCC don't work over here and OFCOM are more worried about making money on 5G and 4G and messing up the phone/broadband deployment.

It is illegal over here to use a mobile while in control of a car, Too many cars, not enough people to do anything about it.


To stay within the radio part.
People are adding radio modules to control devices in the house, act as remotes, LoRa etc and nobody bats an eyelid with legalities.
Yet it all comes under the same laws as far as I know (in the UK)

Heater
Posts: 9224
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:57 pm

bensimmo,
People are adding radio modules to control devices in the house, act as remotes, LoRa etc and nobody bats an eyelid with legalities.
Please do check your facts before speaking. From wikipedia:

"LoRa is a patented (EP2763321 from 2013 and US7791415 from 2008) technology developed by Cycleo (Grenoble, France) and acquired by Semtech in 2012.[6] LoRa uses license-free sub-gigahertz radio frequency bands like 169 MHz, 433 MHz, 868 MHz (Europe) and 915 MHz (North America)."

User avatar
davidcoton
Posts: 2937
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:37 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:16 pm

AIUI, in the UK RF transmitting equipment offered for sale must be type-approved. With certain exceptions for licensed amateur band equipment, modification or DIY building of RF transmitters is not permitted. Approved transmitter modules may be incorporated in DIY systems as long as the RF side is not affected, but such DIY systems may not be re-sold in quantity without further type approval. I am not a lawyer.

As with handheld mobile phone calls while driving, speeding, illegal parking and many other "minor" offences, enforcement is resource limited. If we all ignored laws because we thought we would "get away with it", the world would be lawless indeed.
"Thanks for saving my life." See https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1327656#p1327656
“Raspberry Pi is a trademark of the Raspberry Pi Foundation”

User avatar
AllanGH
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:09 am
Location: 34.033909, -117.313616

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:37 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:27 pm
Sure...the relevant authorities are very unlikely to come looking for someone who makes the sort of modifications under discussion. They are also unlikely to stumble across it. So the chance of getting caught is very low.
Well, since you and I live in California, USA, that's probably the case. It's not like we see the FCC vans rolling-around our neighborhoods as they were back at the height of the "CD Radio Craze". Moreover, neither of us live in dense urban neighborhoods, which lessens the likelihood of interference with others nearby. Where I live, I could probably push a Watt out of a 2.4GHz antenna, and nobody would be the wiser, nor would they be harmed.

The situation is likely different in more densely populated areas, and with different enforcement philosophies, as in the UK; so, we do have to consider that as well.

That said, it is possible that one could fashion a small parabolic reflector out of heavy foil, or light-gauge aluminium sheet, and place it "behind" the remotely-located node, aimed in the direction of the house node. I have actually had excellent luck in doing this with some longer distance WiFi nodes on networks, now and then. The favorable aspect being that there is no actual modification made to the unit, therefore no regulatory prohibitions would apply.
##########################

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Heater
Posts: 9224
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:47 am

AllanGH,
...it is possible that one could fashion a small parabolic reflector out of heavy foil, or light-gauge aluminium sheet, and place it "behind" the remotely-located node, aimed in the direction of the house node. I have actually had excellent luck in doing this with some longer distance WiFi nodes on networks, now and then. The favorable aspect being that there is no actual modification made to the unit, therefore no regulatory prohibitions would apply.
Actually, regulations do apply in that situation also.

In short, the more directional your antenna (higher gain) the less power you are allowed to pump into it. See for example these explanations:
http://www.bitstorm.com/fcc-regulations
https://mybroadband.co.za/news/wireless ... tenna.html

User avatar
DougieLawson
Posts: 32670
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:19 pm
Location: Basingstoke, UK
Contact: Website

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:59 am

bensimmo wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:36 pm
It is illegal over here to use a mobile while in control of a car, Too many cars, not enough people to do anything about it.
[offtopic]
That's because we've not reached the quota of dead cyclists and dead families.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09 ... t-the-whe/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08 ... ith-woman/

Lee Martin the cyclist killed on the A31 was a mate of mine and a member of my cycling club.
[/offtopic]

Most of the reason for radio frequency regulation is so that the emergency services and aircraft don't get their mission critical signals blocked. The reason for certifying equipment using 2.4GHz bands is that it's already full of noise and they're trying to be fair in sharing out the bandwidth for everyone. The rest of the regulation is so the military can talk freely in their own private bands.
Microprocessor, Raspberry Pi & Arduino Hacker
Mainframe database troubleshooter
MQTT Evangelist
Twitter: @DougieLawson

2012-18: 1B*5, 2B*2, B+, A+, Z, ZW, 3Bs*3, 3B+

Any DMs sent on Twitter will be answered next month.

Heater
Posts: 9224
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:15 am

I thought the rest of the regulation was so that the government could collect huge piles of money. For example:
$19.3 billion for 70MHz of spectrum : https://arstechnica.com/information-tec ... across-us/

:)

User avatar
bensimmo
Posts: 2712
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:02 pm
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:31 am

Heater, 'license-free' does that equal unregulated ?
I don't use a license for my WiFi.

But basically we have a Pi3 that does not pickup/receive from the Router/AP
If a dongle is added then it 'power' along that direction is better. If the internal Pi is modified to get a similar power, i.e. pick up and send the signal fine.
Then what is anyones actual problem if the OP knows his surroundings and not us.

It's an antenna mod, much like changing antenna if it has them or altering wires ins laptops internal. Or making a cantenna, Chinese wire thingy with a dongle, tinfoil direction cutout of cardboard I use to make to try pickup arwain in Cardiff BitD.

Leave him to it :-)



It's not as if OFCOM really worried about taking peoples TV out with 4G rollout.

broe23
Posts: 903
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:35 pm
Location: Central IL
Contact: Website

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:01 am

Pithagoros wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:26 am
If you are running slightly over powered WiFi equipment then nobody is going to care. If you are transmitting out of band or with high power and somebody notices then you might get a letter asking you to stop, and if you persist then the authorities might get a bit stronger. A prosecution is unlikely.

If you are running a pirate FM station in 88-108MHz and bleeding all over the BBC FM channels then OFCOM will feel it worthwhile spending money getting after you and will take away your station equipment.
When you put the whip on to connect an external antenna, it does not automatically boost the power level on the chip. The power level for transmit will stay the same. All that you are doing with the whip is making it so that you can attach a regular antenna to the unit. So in real life, you are not going to get picked up and thrown into jail, the same goes if you create a "Cantenna" to try and pick up a weak signal.

I thought that only those who live on the East Coast of the U.S. was paranoid. Sounds to me that too many in the U.K. are paranoid about doing something that improves the connection on a product, does not violate anything to cause someone to report you, nor is a POE device. If someone does get checked for Ingress issues that is causing interference, it sure is not going to be some device like a pi with a whip on it, or a hat with wifi and bluetooth.
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good.

broe23
Posts: 903
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:35 pm
Location: Central IL
Contact: Website

Re: Extending Wireless Range

Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:12 am

Pithagoros wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:20 pm
PiGraham wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:36 pm
Everyone benefits if we are not blasted with signals from every Wi-Fi AP for miles around running high gain antennas and illegal RF amplifiers. There are legal ways to solve the OP's problem.
In context, if you doubled the RF ERP of a Pi using an after-market modification (so irrelevant the the Ofcom/FCC approval for the unmodified product) it still wouldn't be anywhere near the ERP of a decent access point with monopole antennae.
No one is doubling anything when you attach to the board the external connection for a whip or soldering one on there. The pi does not have that ability and the max that you can go with wifi is only 100mw, which is what it would be here in the U.S.. Gateways that are made to go long distances for wifi, can operate up to 1000mw, depending on the model. The point is to stop sweating something that you cannot physically change on the pi, for how much it can transmit for power wise.
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good.

Return to “General discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], drumsergio, Gavinmc42 and 45 guests