dirthurts
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Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Tue May 09, 2017 11:59 am

I'm a bit curious about this one.
I've been doing some math, comparing the Pi Zero to the Pi 3, and it seems that after you buy all of the adapters, hubs and such you need for many projects, a Pi 3 is just about the same end cost but a lot more convenient and capable.
My question, why isn't there a Pi Zero with full sized connections? Sure, it would be larger and cost a little more, but it seems like the end cost to the user would actually be cheaper, unless I'm missing something. This is especially true with the Pi Zero W, which I feel like is heading in the right direction.
Any thoughts on this?

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Tue May 09, 2017 12:16 pm

dirthurts wrote:I'm a bit curious about this one.
I've been doing some math, comparing the Pi Zero to the Pi 3, and it seems that after you buy all of the adapters, hubs and such you need for many projects, a Pi 3 is just about the same end cost but a lot more convenient and capable.
My question, why isn't there a Pi Zero with full sized connections? Sure, it would be larger and cost a little more, but it seems like the end cost to the user would actually be cheaper, unless I'm missing something. This is especially true with the Pi Zero W, which I feel like is heading in the right direction.
Any thoughts on this?
The A+ is a Zero with the larger connectors and bigger footprint, no WiFi but a Scrren Connector:

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/processor ... s/8332699/
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dirthurts
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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Tue May 09, 2017 12:30 pm

Oh, I see. That is the key piece of information I'm missing!
Thanks for that. Hopefully, they'll add wifi to that one some day soon.

mattmiller
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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Tue May 09, 2017 12:37 pm

My question, why isn't there a Pi Zero with full sized connections? Sure, it would be larger and cost a little more, but it seems like the end cost to the user would actually be cheaper, unless I'm missing something.
It would appear from everything that's been said and the action of RPi Trading that the PiZero range is not nearly as profitable as the other models so that they don't really want to make it usuable as a direct Pi3 replacement

By not sticking on the pins, its one method of reducing demand to either those who don't want pins (not many) or appealing only to geeks with soldering irons (or the more expensive/inferieor pushfit ones)

The PiZero is a VERY strange device and the normal laws of marketing and retailing don't apply

And certainly, you won't get anything close to an official straight answer to your question

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RaTTuS
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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Tue May 09, 2017 12:40 pm

mainly because of the size of the board and one sided components ...
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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Tue May 09, 2017 12:46 pm

dirthurts wrote:Oh, I see. That is the key piece of information I'm missing!
Thanks for that. Hopefully, they'll add wifi to that one some day soon.
Also there is a B+: http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/processor ... s/8111284/

The Zero, A+ and B+ all use the same SoC

Regarding add-ons the Zero is ideal for embedded projects where the extras are not needed..


The product family:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/
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alphanumeric
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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Tue May 09, 2017 1:10 pm

I have a couple of A+'s in use here. They are great for mounting to hats, the 4 mounting holes line up perfectly with my Sense Hat. I run them headless but it's nice to have the full sized HDMI port and the one full sized USB port when I have to hook them up to a monitor and keyboard. The one full sized USB port makes adding a WIFI dongle easy. I did that for a while so I could get an accurate date and time. Now I have a RTC installed and don't need the WIFI.
There is a rumored 3A in the works. I'm hoping it ends up being an A+ with the 3B's SOC and onboard WIFI. If it's the same size and layout as the current A+ it will fill my needs perfectly and I'll happily swap one or both of my A+'s for one.
I can see the 3A seeing the light of day at some point. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a Zero with full sized connectors.

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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Tue May 09, 2017 1:12 pm

There is a more cost effective way to buy a Zero W (and extras) and that is a 12 month subscription to the MagPi magazine £55.00 for 12 months, WoW !!

https://www.selectmagazines.co.uk/produ ... -magazine/
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W. H. Heydt
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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Tue May 09, 2017 1:27 pm

dirthurts wrote:Oh, I see. That is the key piece of information I'm missing!
Thanks for that. Hopefully, they'll add wifi to that one some day soon.
There is a Pi3A planned. It will be a Pi3B without the USB/Ethernet "hub" chip in an A+ form factor. Unfortunately, no one knows *when* the Pi3A will start being made.

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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Tue May 09, 2017 1:32 pm

mattmiller wrote: By not sticking on the pins, its one method of reducing demand to either those who don't want pins (not many) or appealing only to geeks with soldering irons (or the more expensive/inferieor pushfit ones)
It has nothing to do with driving popularity. It has to do with manufacturing costs. One of the cost savings methods is to only solder components on one side. That constraint dictated no header pins. It's also what dictates the mini-HDMI and micro-USB connectors.

When you get down to it, one of the "problems" with the Pi0 and Pi0W is that they are *too* popular and manufacturing capacity and production capitalization are constraining the supply...which is why we are still limited to one board per order.

alphanumeric
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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Tue May 09, 2017 1:50 pm

Yeah, in order to only have to solder the one side, that means using all SMT components. Which means using the smaller HDMI and USB connectors, and not mounting the GPIO header. That's likely the main reason why the A+ is 25 bucks and the Zero W is only 10 bucks. ;)

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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Tue May 09, 2017 1:58 pm

dirthurts wrote:Oh, I see. That is the key piece of information I'm missing!
Thanks for that. Hopefully, they'll add wifi to that one some day soon.
You can buy two RPiZWs for the price of one A+ (plus or minus cables and power supplies). I can't see any reason for the hobbyist using an A+ unless they have a very specific project for it.
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alphanumeric
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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Tue May 09, 2017 2:23 pm

The A+ for me, was a lot easier to actually get my hands on. No "you can only buy one" restriction. And no having to sit in front of my monitor with my finger on the click button waiting for one to show up as in stock. ;) No having to order adapters either. At the time I ordered my A+, my only option for getting a Zero was in a kit with adapters and a power supply. Pretty well the same price as an A+. The single Zero's sold out in the blink of an eye. I didn't need a power supply of any adapters for an A+. I already had everything I needed to get it up and running. I didn't need the extra USB ports or Ethernet jack. A+ was at the time my best option. As always, YMMV.

Only half kidding by the way. I actually just setup a notify me when in stock.

The A+ worked out better for me when used with my Sense Hat. Having the 4 mounting holes lining up with my sense hat made mounting everything with standoffs easier. I have a Proto Hat with RTC in between my A+ and Sense hat. I could have used a Zero but the A+ fit my needs better.

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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Tue May 09, 2017 2:24 pm

I always thought it was clear that the Zero was a demo/proof-of-concept and was never really intended to be used. It was a "See? We can make a computer and sell it for five bucks!". As another poster said, the usual rules of sales and marketing do not apply. I believe another phrase that applies here is "loss leader".
If this post appears in the wrong forums category, my apologies.

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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Tue May 09, 2017 2:51 pm

I have a Zero W attached to an Explorer pHat and have every intension of using it in a rover project. For that project its a good, if not perfect fit. Small size and low power consumption, both good for a battery powered vehicle. And WIFI that I will be making use of for monitoring and control. Control will likely be from another Zero W with a Joy Bonnet on it. Also battery powered. I don't need or want full sized connectors on either. They will both be running headless.

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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Tue May 09, 2017 2:54 pm

Martin Frezman wrote:I always thought it was clear that the Zero was a demo/proof-of-concept and was never really intended to be used.
If it wasn't intended to be used, why did they make so many to start with? Surely a demo/proof-of-concept would only need a small number < 1000?
I believe another phrase that applies here is "loss leader".
The phrase "loss leader" implies that the RPF/RPT are making a loss on each Pi 0 sold. They are not. There is profit. A very small profit, but it is there.

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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Tue May 09, 2017 3:32 pm

dirthurts wrote:I'm a bit curious about this one.
I've been doing some math, comparing the Pi Zero to the Pi 3, and it seems that after you buy all of the adapters, hubs and such you need for many projects, a Pi 3 is just about the same end cost but a lot more convenient and capable.
My question, why isn't there a Pi Zero with full sized connections? Sure, it would be larger and cost a little more, but it seems like the end cost to the user would actually be cheaper, unless I'm missing something. This is especially true with the Pi Zero W, which I feel like is heading in the right direction.
Any thoughts on this?
To be honest, you've kind of answered your own question. The idea behind the Pi Zero was to get "as close to free as possible". The reason it doesn't have full-sized connections is *because* it would "cost a little more". :-)
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W. H. Heydt
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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Tue May 09, 2017 3:48 pm

Re: Pi0
Martin Frezman wrote:I believe another phrase that applies here is "loss leader".
Ummm.... No. There is profit--though not much--all the way through the chain on the Pi0. No one is actually *losing* money on them. RS and Farnell didn't want to carry them because they felt there wasn't *enough* profit, not that there wasn't any.

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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Tue May 09, 2017 4:05 pm

Martin Frezman wrote:I always thought it was clear that the Zero was a demo/proof-of-concept and was never really intended to be used. It was a "See? We can make a computer and sell it for five bucks!". As another poster said, the usual rules of sales and marketing do not apply. I believe another phrase that applies here is "loss leader".
As the others said, that was never indicated as the intention. It's good to remember the mission of the Pi Foundation. It has never been to make an Arduino, Chip, Orange Pi, MicroBit, or "Seed Studio" type linux board. It has always been focused on getting a general purpose PC as inexpensively and durably into the hands of "students". Something they can program and hook things into as cheaply as possible. If the break a 3B, that $35. If they break a zero, that's $5. The Zero series was a way to get something ultra cheap into the market that can meet those goals. If you are ever wondering what the Raspberry Pi foundation are thinking, just go look up Eben Upton's interviews and releases. He's a pretty plain spoken guy who says what he means, unless he's purposely trolling on a new feature being released. :-)

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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Tue May 09, 2017 4:17 pm

skspurling wrote:
Martin Frezman wrote:I always thought it was clear that the Zero was a demo/proof-of-concept and was never really intended to be used. It was a "See? We can make a computer and sell it for five bucks!". As another poster said, the usual rules of sales and marketing do not apply. I believe another phrase that applies here is "loss leader".
As the others said, that was never indicated as the intention. It's good to remember the mission of the Pi Foundation. It has never been to make an Arduino, Chip, Orange Pi, MicroBit, or "Seed Studio" type linux board. It has always been focused on getting a general purpose PC as inexpensively and durably into the hands of "students". Something they can program and hook things into as cheaply as possible. If the break a 3B, that $35. If they break a zero, that's $5. The Zero series was a way to get something ultra cheap into the market that can meet those goals. If you are ever wondering what the Raspberry Pi foundation are thinking, just go look up Eben Upton's interviews and releases. He's a pretty plain spoken guy who says what he means, unless he's purposely trolling on a new feature being released. :-)
Intentions are all well and good, but I still maintain that the Pi0/Pi0W are NOT optimal Pis for rank beginners. That said, yeah...Eben is plain spoken, and in the nicest possible way. He'll either tell you the facts (or what he thinks, depending on the question) or he won't tell you anything at all. Probably sizable fractions of the speculations in these Forums is either digging out minor remarks made by Dr. Upton (10in display, anyone?) or trying to read between the lines of what he *didn't* say.


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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Wed May 10, 2017 8:57 am

Martin Frezman wrote:I always thought it was clear that the Zero was a demo/proof-of-concept and was never really intended to be used. It was a "See? We can make a computer and sell it for five bucks!". As another poster said, the usual rules of sales and marketing do not apply. I believe another phrase that applies here is "loss leader".
You appear to be making stuff up now.....can I suggest you don't do that?
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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Wed May 10, 2017 9:06 am

W. H. Heydt wrote: Intentions are all well and good, but I still maintain that the Pi0/Pi0W are NOT optimal Pis for rank beginners.
I completely agree, who claimed that they are?

The biggest issue with giving one to a beginner is the lack of a GPIO header so physical computing is right out.
Speed is another issue, the Pi0 / Pi0W is almost as slow as the original model B Pi.
USB ports / wired ethernet are probably the easiest to solve with a cheap USB2 3 port hub.
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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Wed May 10, 2017 1:44 pm

BMS Doug wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote: Intentions are all well and good, but I still maintain that the Pi0/Pi0W are NOT optimal Pis for rank beginners.
I completely agree, who claimed that they are?

The biggest issue with giving one to a beginner is the lack of a GPIO header so physical computing is right out.
Speed is another issue, the Pi0 / Pi0W is almost as slow as the original model B Pi.
USB ports / wired ethernet are probably the easiest to solve with a cheap USB2 3 port hub.
There is a sub-text to many posts about the Pi0/Pi0W. It is: If you can't afford $35 for a B-series Pi, then step down to a $5/$10 Pi0/Pi0W. Even aside from CPU capability (look how much work was done with the original Model B, and bear in mind that the "failure" Model A sold 100K units), the need for special adapters (who keeps a miniHDMI adapter kicking around?) and the single USB port constrain what will be done without adding more equipment even before you get the physical computing side.

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Re: Why no Pi Zero with full sized connections?

Wed May 10, 2017 1:56 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
BMS Doug wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote: Intentions are all well and good, but I still maintain that the Pi0/Pi0W are NOT optimal Pis for rank beginners.
I completely agree, who claimed that they are?

The biggest issue with giving one to a beginner is the lack of a GPIO header so physical computing is right out.
Speed is another issue, the Pi0 / Pi0W is almost as slow as the original model B Pi.
USB ports / wired ethernet are probably the easiest to solve with a cheap USB2 3 port hub.
There is a sub-text to many posts about the Pi0/Pi0W. It is: If you can't afford $35 for a B-series Pi, then step down to a $5/$10 Pi0/Pi0W. Even aside from CPU capability (look how much work was done with the original Model B, and bear in mind that the "failure" Model A sold 100K units), the need for special adapters (who keeps a miniHDMI adapter kicking around?) and the single USB port constrain what will be done without adding more equipment even before you get the physical computing side.
Raspberry Pi 1B+ is a good alternative to a Zero when including the cost of the Zero extras ;)
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