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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:53 pm

chas123 wrote:B.T.W shall not bother posting anymore. Thought I was helping but just get hastle.
Please don't be put off by the responses. Your observations are good and helpful. Particularly when most posts are about problems rather than successes.

It is the nature of any Forum discussion that people will disagree or extend the subject. That is actually what makes Fora so useful. It's nothing personal, it's certainly not meant to hassle you (if it is, there's a button to report a post to the mods). My contribution, BTW, was to point out that if it doesn't work, it's probably not because you were wrong, it's another (related) issue. Obviously it works for you.

Another BTW -- when there's a typo in your posts, you can go back and correct the original with the Edit button. Then anyone reading it in future gets the right info without having to read all the subsequent posts for possible corrections. Again, I'm not hassling, just trying to make the discussion more useful.
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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:11 pm

One question to the forum members.

Did somebody already test this with the WD Pi Drives? They are supposedly designed to work well with the RPI machines.

What I see is that the RPI didn't born with this functionality ready at hand, and could be possible that, although in some cases it will work, the right thing to do is to trust only in the right way to do things and not to force different configurations.

For example, the WD has a special cable diverting the power for the RPI from the source "without passing through the RPI", and maybe this is the right way to do this, letting the USB power for other sort of things (keyboards, mice, sensors ...).

At the end, my goal is to have enterprise level functionality on RPI machines and to expend some bucks more won't be a problem if I can guarantee long term functionality ( it is not possible to have everything ... good, nice and cheap, for free).

On the other side, I read that the SD it is failing more often on the RPI3 with Jessie that on previous Raspbian versions. What I could suppose is that Jessie has heavier swap usage and to separate the swap on a USB memory stick or an external hard disk could be a good idea. At the end, what all we like to is have more space (because we need it), to have faster machines and to trust in these precious machines, not necessarily to do this as an academic exercise.

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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:01 pm

Yes, it works fine with a WD 314GB PiDrive. I am using a "Pluggable USB 2.0 4-Prt Hub" - the PiDrive is plugged into it.

I have not seen any reference to the "correct" way to keep a system [that is running on an MSD] updated . Could someone please advise?

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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:42 pm

pws wrote: I have not seen any reference to the "correct" way to keep a system [that is running on an MSD] updated . Could someone please advise?
Use sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get -y dist-upgrade && sudo BRANCH=next rpi-update

That will keep everything sweet. Some time in the future the new kernel / new bootcode stuff will move from BRANCH=next rpi-update to plain rpi-update, some time after that the kernel and bootcode will move into the apt-get process and we can stop running rpi-update.

I've asked the RPF folks when the recent commits to the kernel / bootcode are going to be rolled up into the plain rpi-update github branch.

The best thing is this is working and it's relatively easy to use. Even the network boot isn't too hard to get running.
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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:45 am

malvcr wrote:One question to the forum members.

Did somebody already test this with the WD Pi Drives? They are supposedly designed to work well with the RPI machines.
I haven't done it myself, but a friend of mine has used a diretly attached PiDrive and hasn't reported any problems.
What I see is that the RPI didn't born with this functionality ready at hand, and could be possible that, although in some cases it will work, the right thing to do is to trust only in the right way to do things and not to force different configurations.
The original SoC--BCM2835--isn't capable of booting from a USB-attached device and neither was the second iteration, the BCM2836. It was only with the BCM2837--used in the Pi3--that the on-chip boot code was modified to be able to do this. I suppose I should note that the 2835 and 2836 can boot from on board eMMC, if there is any. That's the way the CM works.
For example, the WD has a special cable diverting the power for the RPI from the source "without passing through the RPI", and maybe this is the right way to do this, letting the USB power for other sort of things (keyboards, mice, sensors ...).
Yes and no.... That weird cable was originally designed for the 1TB PiDrive, which requires more power than the newer, 314GB PiDrive. While you can use that cable with the 314GB model, you don't need to. It can be powered directly from a USB port on a Pi2B or Pi3B, which is how I've been using one. I've also tested it with another SBC that has a USB3 connector and the I/O speed jumps from 40MB/s on a Pi over USB2 to 80MB/s on a USB3 connection. (That, by the way, is an example of why I'm really, really hoping that the SoC for the next gen Pi some time in the 2018 to 2019 time frame, call it "Pi4B" for lack of a better name, has USB3.)
At the end, my goal is to have enterprise level functionality on RPI machines and to expend some bucks more won't be a problem if I can guarantee long term functionality ( it is not possible to have everything ... good, nice and cheap, for free).
Have you looked at the CM? It has 4GB of on-board eMMC flash. There should be a CM3 Real Soon Now (tm), otherwise known as "supposed to be launched this year".

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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:38 am

It works for me, im very gratefull


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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:02 am

W. H. Heydt wrote: The original SoC--BCM2835 [pi1 / Zero]--isn't capable of booting from a USB-attached device and neither was the second iteration, the BCM2836 [pi-2].
It was only with the BCM2837--used in the Pi3--that the on-chip boot code was modified to be able to do this. I suppose I should note that the 2835 and 2836 can boot from on board eMMC, if there is any. That's the way the CM works.
Just to expand on that it is now possible(beta) to "boot" from USB or network on other models with just a single file on the SD (new bootcode.bin)
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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:29 am

mikerr wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote: The original SoC--BCM2835 [pi1 / Zero]--isn't capable of booting from a USB-attached device and neither was the second iteration, the BCM2836 [pi-2].
It was only with the BCM2837--used in the Pi3--that the on-chip boot code was modified to be able to do this. I suppose I should note that the 2835 and 2836 can boot from on board eMMC, if there is any. That's the way the CM works.
Just to expand on that it is now possible(beta) to "boot" from USB or network on other models with just a single file on the SD (new bootcode.bin)
Brilliant, I've been waiting for that. I've got a B+ with a hard disk that has an 8GB SDCard that only contains the /boot stuff. I'll look at shifting that to use a old 2GB card with just the bootcode.bin on it. It reduces the risk of SDCard failure breaking the machine.
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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:11 pm

DougieLawson wrote:
pws wrote: I have not seen any reference to the "correct" way to keep a system [that is running on an MSD] updated . Could someone please advise?
Use sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get -y dist-upgrade && sudo BRANCH=next rpi-update

That will keep everything sweet. Some time in the future the new kernel / new bootcode stuff will move from BRANCH=next rpi-update to plain rpi-update, some time after that the kernel and bootcode will move into the apt-get process and we can stop running rpi-update.

I've asked the RPF folks when the recent commits to the kernel / bootcode are going to be rolled up into the plain rpi-update github branch.

The best thing is this is working and it's relatively easy to use. Even the network boot isn't too hard to get running.
Doug,

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, after I performed the update as specified above, the system lo longer boots - just a blank, black screen - like it never gets a signal from the Pi. I powered everything down and retried with no success.

I attached the text of the update session for your review (Update_Session.txt).

Paul

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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:20 pm

Hi W. H. Heydt

Thanks for the data.

I bought some PiDrives and cables from W.D. ... they are in the mail right now. I will test them on the RPI3 I have for that purpose when arriving (in fact, I just noticed that there is a new version in the next branch, I will test later today).

About the compute module, it seems to be a nice option, although I have two issues with that.

1) It is based on the original single core Broadcom ship and I need a multicore device. In this case, I would need to wait for the CM3 when it be ready and I expect this to have at least 8GB eMMc internal storage.

2) Right now I am not in the position to create custom PCBs to use the CM devices; this is why I have been working with RPI3 complete machines ( maybe in the future this will be an option for me, but not today ).

In fact, in this sense, could be better to have something like a Zero+, based on the latest SOCs and including eMMc, or a reduced Kit (just some ports) to connect a CM3. Or ... maybe to have a HAT with eMMc for the standard RP3 so the machine could boot from the HAT. In this case, to have the SD with just the boot bin file and/or to use a PiDrive seems to be the best option in this moment, because I am developing some type of "personal" information system where I need more space that what it is available in these eMMc chips.

A dream machine? ....

RPI4 = RP3 with USB3 support (full boot support and guaranteed electricity to drive without compromises external disks), 2GB (or more) RAM and an eMMc socket. On the software side, to support full VC4 acceleration on the graphical user interface (I know this is in the works). It is interesting, for me the RPI3 machines are very good laboratory and/or server devices (for some applications), although "almost" good enough as desktop replacements.

And to the RPF, please continue with your outstanding work.

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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:43 pm

malvcr wrote: Thanks for the data.
You're welcome.
About the compute module, it seems to be a nice option, although I have two issues with that.

1) It is based on the original single core Broadcom ship and I need a multicore device. In this case, I would need to wait for the CM3 when it be ready and I expect this to have at least 8GB eMMc internal storage.
See the blog post for today (8 Sept. 2016). Eben was asked about the CM3 and he said that "orders have been placed." To be fair, he didn't say *when* the orders were placed, nor did he say how long it takes from ordering to availability, but it does indicated that the CM3 is--reasonably--imminent. I would guess that we'll see it arrive within the next 30 to 60 days. As for having 8GB of eMMC, those that know aren't saying and those who don't know can only hope. I've been saying for some months that I hope that is the case...but since I have no inside knowledge, I don't know. If I *did* know, I'd be under NDA and wouldn't be able to say.
2) Right now I am not in the position to create custom PCBs to use the CM devices; this is why I have been working with RPI3 complete machines ( maybe in the future this will be an option for me, but not today ).
Yes...that's an issue.
In fact, in this sense, could be better to have something like a Zero+, based on the latest SOCs and including eMMc, or a reduced Kit (just some ports) to connect a CM3. Or ... maybe to have a HAT with eMMc for the standard RP3 so the machine could boot from the HAT. In this case, to have the SD with just the boot bin file and/or to use a PiDrive seems to be the best option in this moment, because I am developing some type of "personal" information system where I need more space that what it is available in these eMMc chips.
The Pi Zero is specifically targeted at "Just how low can the price of a computer go?" As such, you aren't going to see it get anything that adds measurably to the cost of making it. I'm dubious about an eMMC HAT as I don't think the bus the SD card uses (eMMC uses the same one, so far as I know) is on the GPIO block, so there wouldn't be a decent I/O channel to run it.

Part of the issue here is the inteded purpose of the Pi: Education. It is a lot easier to use a Pi with an SD card that can be removed and reflashed or replaced than if you have to take the Pi, connect it to something else, and reflash the eMMC. If you really want on-board eMMC and mutlicore right now, you might look at the Odroid-C2. You won't get anywhere near as much software and problem support, though.
A dream machine? ....

RPI4 = RP3 with USB3 support (full boot support and guaranteed electricity to drive without compromises external disks), 2GB (or more) RAM and an eMMc socket. On the software side, to support full VC4 acceleration on the graphical user interface (I know this is in the works). It is interesting, for me the RPI3 machines are very good laboratory and/or server devices (for some applications), although "almost" good enough as desktop replacements.
One can always dream. The problem is that what most people dream about in a Pi is a $35 computer with all the capability and power of a $1000 computer.

I would be quite content if the Pi4B comes out as identical to the Pi3B with the sole change being USB3. *All* of the specs of the Pi3B are enough for my intended uses except for a need for faster mass storage access, and USB3 can provide that with ease. (I know USB3 is fast enough because I've done tests with an SBC that has USB3. The reason I"m not switching to that board is that it doesn't handle the screen resolution of my monitor, though I dare say with enough digging that could be fixed, but I'm spoiled by the Pi handling it automatically.) Would I like some of the other things? Sure, but even my "nice to have" list is pretty modest...a bit faster (say 1.4-1.5GHz), and more RAM (2GB), but neither of those is really needed for anything I want to do with a Pi. (For what it's worth, I would use a Pi4B to replace a Cubieboard-2, which is a 1GHz, 1GB, dual A7 core board...but it has SATA-II on board and I have the OS installed on a 60GB SATA-II SSD.)
And to the RPF, please continue with your outstanding work.
Seconded.

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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:01 pm

pws wrote: Doug,

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, after I performed the update as specified above, the system lo longer boots - just a blank, black screen - like it never gets a signal from the Pi. I powered everything down and retried with no success.

I attached the text of the update session for your review (Update_Session.txt).

Paul
You may need to remove /boot/.firmware_revision to encourage sudo BRANCH=next rpi-update to re-install the USB MSD & PXE bootcode.

I've had to redo the clone from my original SDCard to my Sandisk USB stick at least once to get USB booting working again. So it's worth booting from your SDCard and keeping that up to date while you're playing experimenting.
Last edited by DougieLawson on Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:43 am

[quote="DougieLawson] while you're playing.[/quote]

With the greatest respect doug, and I mean that, that phrase in my lab is a no, no, and in the long term a sackable offence, I'm my years that phrase was used by the older engineers to put down the young and stop them competing with them, if I heard that phrase being said to a new young member I would covertly work towards getting the engineer that said it removed from the project. I would use the phrase "while your investigating" I know its a minor issue but it is important, a new engineer can be put of for life from investigating for fear of others seeing what they are doing as "playing", kids play, grownups investigate.
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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:56 am

johnb_summers wrote:[quote="DougieLawson] while you're playing.
With the greatest respect doug, and I mean that, that phrase in my lab is a no, no, and in the long term a sackable offence, I'm my years that phrase was used by the older engineers to put down the young and stop them competing with them, if I heard that phrase being said to a new young member I would covertly work towards getting the engineer that said it removed from the project. I would use the phrase "while your investigating" I know its a minor issue but it is important, a new engineer can be put of for life from investigating for fear of others seeing what they are doing as "playing", kids play, grownups investigate.[/quote][/quote]
Relying on anything that is still in beta should be a sackable offence, without serious risk assessments having been made. It could all break tomorrow and leave you totally up a creek with no paddle in sight.
Therefore anyone using USB or PXE booting on the Pi should be only playing, or experimenting if you prefer alternative phrasing.
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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:12 pm

6by9 wrote:
johnb_summers wrote:[quote="DougieLawson] while you're playing.
With the greatest respect doug, and I mean that, that phrase in my lab is a no, no, and in the long term a sackable offence, I'm my years that phrase was used by the older engineers to put down the young and stop them competing with them, if I heard that phrase being said to a new young member I would covertly work towards getting the engineer that said it removed from the project. I would use the phrase "while your investigating" I know its a minor issue but it is important, a new engineer can be put of for life from investigating for fear of others seeing what they are doing as "playing", kids play, grownups investigate.
[/quote]
Relying on anything that is still in beta should be a sackable offence, without serious risk assessments having been made. It could all break tomorrow and leave you totally up a creek with no paddle in sight.
Therefore anyone using USB or PXE booting on the Pi should be only playing, or experimenting if you prefer alternative phrasing.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

I think you know what I mean, experimenting or investigating will do but NEVER playing, if you use that word to describe what you yourself are doing then you don't take what your doing seriously or are making out it is not important to you, either way you are letting your ego get in the way of advancement and if part of a team the advancement of the team, on the front line nothing is reliable, that's why its called the front line and the ideas that make it reliable and part of occupied territory are 90% from fresh eyes, old engineers are just that, old, and btw I am in my 60's.
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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:54 pm

I'll go with 6by9's word "experimental", if you insist, because that USB MSD stuff and PXE stuff is still exceedingly experimental. Even though some of the best stuff comes out of skunk works and slack ware which really is folks doing stuff during their play time.

I tried a B+ with just the bootcode and completely failed because that one (with a USB HDD) needs rootwait=5 in cmdline.txt and max_usb_current=1 in config.txt.

That's going to need an update to bootcode to assume max_usb_current=1 by reversing the default value. If folks have a specific need to run their B+ or 2B without max_usb_current set they'll have to reset it in config.txt. The USB HDD wouldn't spin up.
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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:57 pm

For the record, I took absolutely no offense - quite the opposite, I understood perfectly - this IS playing!! But alas, I too am a crusty old dude and appreciate the value of the input of others like myself.

As to the problem itself, all I can say is "we ain't there yet" - but getting closer every day - thanks to the invaluable "stuff" that passes through places like this every minute of every day!

Wave on, Doug!

Paul

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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:32 pm

I am sorry I sounded so stern, but I too have tried to get it to boot from a m3 1tb hard drive, I too had nothing but trouble and I know this needs fresh eyes, I look forward to the day when this is sorted and becomes occupied territory so the generals have somewhere to put their drinks cabinet.
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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:44 pm

i'm just going to make an observation here (not being critical, mind you, but this seems like a tempest-in-a-teapot):

the concept of booting from various media and using various techniques (hard media and over a network) has been around for quite some time in the Linux 'biosphere'...

what is the problem with getting the RPi booting via PXE(tfpt) or from USB or from microsdhc?

c'mon folks, really? why not have USB booting Raspbian mainstream at this point?

(i'm quite happy to boot from microsdhc, btw - it works for me)

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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:44 pm

I've created a Github issue for my failure to get a B+ with USB HDD booting with an abnormal (bootcode.bin only) SDCard.
https://github.com/raspberrypi/firmware/issues/661

My B+ has and extra parm "rootdelay=5" in /boot/cmdline.txt and "max_usb_current=1" in /boot/config.txt to allow the USB HDD to spin up before mounting the rootfs. There's no way to pass those parms when the SDCard only has bootcode.bin.
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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:46 pm

linux_author wrote: c'mon folks, really? why not have USB booting Raspbian mainstream at this point?
Because it's brand new code with brand new function and that needs to go through some alpha and beta testing before you let it loose to the general population. We're still in beta.
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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:17 pm

Well I now have a new problem with that same 1 tb hard drive, i could not get it to boot so I made it the apache root, worked fine, for weeks, then on the ninth of September while copying 7 videos across to it (4gb) something very odd happened, they were there and I tested them all and then I rebooted the pi and all 7 were corrupted and the drive turned itself into a read only system, I rebooted again and the drive went back to read write but the 7 were gone, is there any program that runs on the PI where we can scan the disk for errors and fix them?
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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:26 pm

sudo fsck -f -y /dev/sda1 is the stock way to scan a filesystem for errors (change sda1 to the right device that you want to check and the filesystem can't be mounted).
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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:51 pm

DougieLawson wrote:sudo fsck -f -y /dev/sda1 is the stock way to scan a filesystem for errors (change sda1 to the right device that you want to check and the filesystem can't be mounted).
ty, I did that and it said
fsck from util-linux 2.25.2
e2fsck 1.42.12 (29-aug-2014)
/dev/sda1 is mounted
e2fsck: cannot continue, abort

any idea what that means?

kind regards
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Re: USB boot now working on Pi3

Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:09 am

It means the filesystem is mounted and can't be fsck'd.
It probably means the filesystem is OK and doesn't need to be fixed.

Create a file with sudo touch /forcefsck then reboot and the system will do an automatic filesystem check.
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