jamesh
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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:59 am

rmwebs wrote: Things like the Banana-Pi are great for those who need more resources than the current pi can provide, yet still want to be involved in the pi community, and pi based projects.

The Arduino community is a great example. There's tons of clones, remakes, alternatives, etc and they welcome it with open arms. The foundation being a bit snooty about it all isn't the way to go IMO, especially when so much of the Pi is touted as being opensource.
My personal thoughts here. If you want to be involved in the Raspi community,and Pi based project's...GET A RASPBERRY PI. Don't get something else and expect to be welcomed with open arms. The Arduino community is NOT the same. They are all based on the same (or similar) microcontrollers. The B-Pi is a completely different device that is not compatible in any way. It's like posting for help on your Ford Mondeo on a Honda Civic forum.

And please stop saying things like snooty. That could not be further from the truth. As JamesA said above, and he works there so he should know. The one thing they do do though, is protect their investment and income stream. If that is snooty? well, I'm not sure what to suggest. That income stream is vital so they can continue their educational drive, which is an expensive thing to do.
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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:38 pm

ok, the main reason I started this thread was to discuss possible modifications to the IO board. I think we've all pitched in with our opinions and had the discussion in a more or less civilized fashion. This thread was not intended to be a 'let's complain & whine about everything under the sun' thread. I really don't mind the thread shifting gears a little bit but hi-jacking it completely to make it about the BananaPi because another BananaPi thread was closed is unwarranted and kind of rude.

But since the Hi-jacking has already commenced...let's discuss the Banana-Pi issue......
  • The name itself is very close to that of Raspberry Pi's and may be seen as an infringment on the Raspberry Pi trademark.
    The industrial design/ shape of it is almost identical to that of the RPi...which is a shame since the AllWinner A20 is capable of being so much more ....
Clearly, the BananaPi was named and designed with the intention of taking advantage of the RPi's hype, name and design. The RPi is not Arduino and is not released under the same license.......One cannot expect/coerce The RPi Foundation to have the same licensing as Arduino just because one "thinks its right".

The RPi foundation has every right to protect their trademark and to prevent confusion between the RPi and the BananaPi.
Last edited by halhertani on Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:42 pm

halhertani wrote:The RPi foundation has every right to protect their trademark and to prevent confusion between the RPi and the BananaPi.
Absolutely - and that should be the only reason to go after a clone/competitor. Someone above mentioned something about 'ripping off the form factor'....what?! As I recall the SheevaPlug was released a couple of years before the pi and shares a very similar form factor? Does that mean the Pi ripped them off? Of course not.

I'll say it again - trademark/brand issues aside there is absolutely zero reason why there should be blockade on discussing or purchasing Pi-like computers. There are a fair few of them out there now, and this attitude of 'if you want to be part of the pi community, buy a pi' has to stop. Of course people are buying pi's, but why is it such a big problem for people to buy, and discuss similar products? I get the impression from a few mods that the expectation is that of "thou shalt not support anything not financially benefitting the foundation", which is absurd (IMHO of course).

All I'm saying is...be civil and cut out the attitude. Sure, we all know the Pi is amazing, but we don't have to go over the top here. Am I to assume that had someone opened a thread about the CuBox-i that it would also receive such a negative response from the mods?

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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:51 pm

rmwebs wrote: I'll say it again - trademark/brand issues aside there is absolutely zero reason why there should be blockade on discussing or purchasing Pi-like computers.
Respectfully, isn't the fact that they are commercial operations and should pay for their own publicity a good reason? Who pays for the hits on this site? (And no capacity like this is not free.)

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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:08 pm

rmwebs wrote:
halhertani wrote:The RPi foundation has every right to protect their trademark and to prevent confusion between the RPi and the BananaPi.
Absolutely - and that should be the only reason to go after a clone/competitor. Someone above mentioned something about 'ripping off the form factor'....what?! As I recall the SheevaPlug was released a couple of years before the pi and shares a very similar form factor? Does that mean the Pi ripped them off? Of course not.

I'll say it again - trademark/brand issues aside there is absolutely zero reason why there should be blockade on discussing or purchasing Pi-like computers. There are a fair few of them out there now, and this attitude of 'if you want to be part of the pi community, buy a pi' has to stop. Of course people are buying pi's, but why is it such a big problem for people to buy, and discuss similar products? I get the impression from a few mods that the expectation is that of "thou shalt not support anything not financially benefitting the foundation", which is absurd (IMHO of course).

All I'm saying is...be civil and cut out the attitude. Sure, we all know the Pi is amazing, but we don't have to go over the top here. Am I to assume that had someone opened a thread about the CuBox-i that it would also receive such a negative response from the mods?
1. If you think the Shivaplug format is similar to the Raspi (or the B-Pi!) you should have gone to specsavers! On the other hand the B-Pi is an EXACT form factor copy of the Raspberry Pi. Which in itself is not a infringement, but when added to all the other stuff, is a bit beyond the pail.
2. There will be a blockade on anything the Raspberry Foundation feels is appropriate. This forum is not a democracy, it is a benevolent dictatorship. If allowing people to post about competitor boards (which is usually allowed btw as long as it not blatent advertising) has the likelihood of impacting on Raspi core business, then you are likely to see it stopped. I see no reason why the Foundation should give competitors free advertising, in fact they do, but in the B-Pi case, this is a clear case of trying to rip off the goodwill of the Foundation for personal gain.
3. What attitude? I see no attitude.
4. Please see here for the Cubiboard discussion thread. http://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22288. Had this been a blatant rip off then it's unlikely this thread would be three pages long. No-one appears to have started one on the Cubox-i.
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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:26 pm

Why is this even an issue? I use a variety of ARM boards, but I don't go on about the pi to stm32 people, nor do I ask stm32-related questions here. If I want to discuss something, I go on the relevant forum to do so. Seems like common sense and basic manners, if anything.

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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:36 pm

Personally I don't care if the headers are male or female. I think male is better as female connectors can go bad.

As far as other Rpi like devices go, sure there will be others trying to steal market share and they will succeed to one degree or another if the Rpi Foundation does not create the next generation SBC soon. The CM is not a SBC.

To those that are considering other SBC's, it is all about support. No support == paperweight.
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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:20 pm

Who would ever confuse a banana with raspberry? Or an acorn, apple or apricot, :lol:

No matter if ventures such as Banana Pi fail or succeed, there's always something to learn from it. And even if it fails miserably, it will have given ideas for the future. I really don't see how this would harm the foundation.

What would damage the name of the foundation, is the creation of an atmosphere of secrecy. That would make open source hardliners such as the Debian fellow right.

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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:00 pm

mfa298 wrote:(although may have other limits - like lack of ethernet)
The ethernet on the Pi is just a USB hub with ethernet chip anyway. If you want to add that externally it's trivial to do so.

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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:36 pm

cyrano wrote:Who would ever confuse a banana with raspberry? Or an acorn, apple or apricot, :lol:

No matter if ventures such as Banana Pi fail or succeed, there's always something to learn from it. And even if it fails miserably, it will have given ideas for the future. I really don't see how this would harm the foundation.

What would damage the name of the foundation, is the creation of an atmosphere of secrecy. That would make open source hardliners such as the Debian fellow right.
What secrecy? There is the clear acknowledgement that the GPU is closed source, and the fact that the Foundation never releases information about forthcoming product until it is ready to do so. And that's it as far as I know.

So where are you getting this secrecy thing from?

As for harm to he Foundation, if even one person buys a B-Pi because it looks like a Raspi, or because they have said it's Raspi compatible (or for any of the other reasons they may do so), then the Foundation has been damaged. Admittedly, only in a small way, but if more than one does the same? Do we here want to be dealing with help requests like..

"My B-Pi doesn't work properly, it supposed to be compatible with the Raspi Pi, but its not. What are you going to do about it..."

And before people say that will never happen, of course it will. It's not the buyers fault - they have been mislead. We here are knowledgeable enough to know what's what, but that is surely not the case for every prospective Pi purchaser.
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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:08 pm

jamesh wrote:
halhertani wrote:Jamesh,
I understand that the IO board is just a development platform.....and I'm grateful that the RPi Foundation is making such an IO board available along with the compute module from day one.

But I would've liked this board be a bit more hobbyist/maker friendly.

I'm sure that other IO boards will be developed by third parties for the compute module. Perhaps I'll take your advice and develop one myself!

Hussam
I don't understand how having a female connector makes it hobbyist friendly. As an example, my IO board (Oh Yes) has jumpers on the male connectors- not possible with female. Female IDC's are cheaper etc.

And tbh, this board is much more expensive than hobbyists are going to find friendly, simply because it's aimed at a completely different market. Like you, I see third party IO boards being the way to go for hobbyists.

Photo of interface board I designed and built
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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:59 pm

jamesh wrote:"My B-Pi doesn't work properly, it supposed to be compatible with the Raspi Pi, but its not. What are you going to do about it..."
I remember in a BBC micro magazine there was a number of translations from marketing lingo to reality. One of the ones that stuck in my mind was

"99% compatible" -> "totally incompatible, only trivial programs run"

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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:53 am

rmwebs wrote:As I recall the SheevaPlug was released a couple of years before the pi and shares a very similar form factor? Does that mean the Pi ripped them off? Of course not.
jamesh wrote:1. If you think the Shivaplug format is similar to the Raspi (or the B-Pi!) you should have gone to specsavers!
Are you seriously arguing over that, or have you never physically seen a Sheevaplug?

Here's a quick comparison of an old SheevaPlug I had laying around, and a Model B Pi - note my original quote, specifically: "a very similar form factor".

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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:56 am

rmwebs wrote:
rmwebs wrote:As I recall the SheevaPlug was released a couple of years before the pi and shares a very similar form factor? Does that mean the Pi ripped them off? Of course not.
jamesh wrote:1. If you think the Shivaplug format is similar to the Raspi (or the B-Pi!) you should have gone to specsavers!
Are you seriously arguing over that, or have you never physically seen a Sheevaplug?

Here's a quick comparison of an old SheevaPlug I had laying around, and a Model B Pi - note my original quote, specifically: "a very similar form factor".
I have never before seen SheevaPlug, but I have to agree with jamesh here. I do not see much similaries. Well, they are both green... :)

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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:42 pm

rmwebs wrote:
rmwebs wrote:As I recall the SheevaPlug was released a couple of years before the pi and shares a very similar form factor? Does that mean the Pi ripped them off? Of course not.
jamesh wrote:1. If you think the Shivaplug format is similar to the Raspi (or the B-Pi!) you should have gone to specsavers!
Are you seriously arguing over that, or have you never physically seen a Sheevaplug?

Here's a quick comparison of an old SheevaPlug I had laying around, and a Model B Pi - note my original quote, specifically: "a very similar form factor".
Look at the difference between a Raspi and Sheeva plug, then look at the differences between a Raspi and a B-Pi. Then say that Shiva and Raspi are 'similar'. I couldn't.

I guess you and I have difference definitions of similar. To me, it means they look very much the same, and clearly, aside from the fact they are both PCB's, they do not look the same. Unlike B-pi and R-pi, which do indeed look 'similar'. Another case in point. Kylie and Danii Minogue look similar. Kylie and Simon Cowell do not. The plugs are completely differently arranged if nothing else.
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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:43 pm

We always seem to get down to compact hardware eventually! :lol:

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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:41 pm

jamesh wrote:
rmwebs wrote:
rmwebs wrote:As I recall the SheevaPlug was released a couple of years before the pi and shares a very similar form factor? Does that mean the Pi ripped them off? Of course not.
jamesh wrote:1. If you think the Shivaplug format is similar to the Raspi (or the B-Pi!) you should have gone to specsavers!
Are you seriously arguing over that, or have you never physically seen a Sheevaplug?

Here's a quick comparison of an old SheevaPlug I had laying around, and a Model B Pi - note my original quote, specifically: "a very similar form factor".
Look at the difference between a Raspi and Sheeva plug, then look at the differences between a Raspi and a B-Pi. Then say that Shiva and Raspi are 'similar'. I couldn't.

I guess you and I have difference definitions of similar. To me, it means they look very much the same, and clearly, aside from the fact they are both PCB's, they do not look the same. Unlike B-pi and R-pi, which do indeed look 'similar'. Another case in point. Kylie and Danii Minogue look similar. Kylie and Simon Cowell do not. The plugs are completely differently arranged if nothing else.
With respect - read my comment again please.

Form Factor: the physical size and shape of a piece of computer hardware.

The Sheevaplug is approx. 1cm longer and 0.5cm wider, although if you include the Pi's RCA port it's actually bang on the same width. Height wise when you look at them side by side, they are within a couple of mm of each other.

So yeah. I still say what I said before. They share a SIMILAR Form Factor, as do many, many other boards like these.

Form factor. Not port configuration. Not colour. Not positioning of components. Form factor.

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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:54 pm

Have you even seen the banana's web page? The claim is made that it's the same size. SAME size. The port configuration looks almost the same too. They look like they could go in the same case though admittedly I'm speculating there...

You could hardly accuse the raspi of copying the sheeva in the same way.

In addition, your definition of "form factor" is certainly not the same as mine. So you'll probably refuse to listen.

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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:05 pm

rmwebs wrote: With respect - read my comment again please.

Form Factor: the physical size and shape of a piece of computer hardware.

The Sheevaplug is approx. 1cm longer and 0.5cm wider, although if you include the Pi's RCA port it's actually bang on the same width. Height wise when you look at them side by side, they are within a couple of mm of each other.

So yeah. I still say what I said before. They share a SIMILAR Form Factor, as do many, many other boards like these.

Form factor. Not port configuration. Not colour. Not positioning of components. Form factor.
I think what you are referring to is not form factor, but simply size. By your definition the Raspi is the same size as a credit card so therefore they have similar form factors. That's clearly not right. The general accepted definition of form factor often includes plugs and interfaces etc. For example, the ATX form factor motherboard requires specific mounting holes, and a set of plugs on the back (although specific locaiton can change), with specific power connectors and USB headers etc. The peripheral connectors also need to line up correctly with the slots on the back of the case. So just being a motherboard of the same size really isn't enough to claim a similar form factor.
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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:02 am

jamesh wrote:
cyrano wrote:Who would ever confuse a banana with raspberry? Or an acorn, apple or apricot, :lol:

No matter if ventures such as Banana Pi fail or succeed, there's always something to learn from it. And even if it fails miserably, it will have given ideas for the future. I really don't see how this would harm the foundation.

What would damage the name of the foundation, is the creation of an atmosphere of secrecy. That would make open source hardliners such as the Debian fellow right.
What secrecy? There is the clear acknowledgement that the GPU is closed source, and the fact that the Foundation never releases information about forthcoming product until it is ready to do so. And that's it as far as I know.

So where are you getting this secrecy thing from?
I'm not saying you're a secretive bunch :lol:
Not being able to discuss B-Pi's and other "competitors" looks like secrecy to a lot of folks. And that's exactly what I've read on other fora. Top that up with a couple of open source fanatics, and you get a negative perception.
As for harm to he Foundation, if even one person buys a B-Pi because it looks like a Raspi, or because they have said it's Raspi compatible (or for any of the other reasons they may do so), then the Foundation has been damaged. Admittedly, only in a small way, but if more than one does the same? Do we here want to be dealing with help requests like..

"My B-Pi doesn't work properly, it supposed to be compatible with the Raspi Pi, but its not. What are you going to do about it..."

And before people say that will never happen, of course it will. It's not the buyers fault - they have been mislead. We here are knowledgeable enough to know what's what, but that is surely not the case for every prospective Pi purchaser.
Oh, I'm sure it will happen. It has already happened, I believe. But would that be so awful?

The same goes for repetitive questions. Googling is good. But I also saw the first victim of googling passing by. It's extremely difficult for a newbie to sift through google info. To find out what's obsoleted, what's plainly wrong and what's not ready yet.

You can't avoid those questions. Turn them into an asset, in stead of a turn-off. People believe in compatibility. It's very hard to change that belief. And I believe that not permitting them to speak will even fortify their beliefs.

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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:09 am

I think if you look back at previous threads on other devices, we have been very generous in letting people discuss them. Search for Beagle bone, or Cubieboard and you find long threads on here. However, when you get clear cloning and trademark infringement from something like B-Pi, that's a slightly different matter which has to be considered differently. Neither BBB or Cubie are trading on the Raspi name, whereas B-Pi are. As it happens I have left the thread up, albeit locked, and have said that once they start being delivered, then another thread can be opened. Is that really so secretive? If the Foundation were so up in arms, surely the thread would simply have been deleted instantly? At the moment, its all guesswork on the device since they haven't been getting in to peoples hands, so there very little to say about them anyway, and any thread on them will likely degenerate in to "When will the Foundation upgrade the SoC to compete", "Why can't the Foundation do eSata like this" etc without any real facts.

B-Pi have their own forum, which would be a much more appropriate place to discuss them anyway!
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Re: Female Headers for the IO Board

Fri May 09, 2014 8:16 am

I have a Banana Pi (so they definitely do exist) and for what it's worth they are very definitely NOT 100% physically compatible with a Raspberry Pi. I've not got as far as plugging it in yet as I'm waiting for an SD card to arrive so I can't comment on if it actually works or not.

For a start the board is bigger. Not much bigger, but enough that it means I doubt it will fit in any Raspberry Pi case. The B-Pi is around 92x60mm compared to the R-Pi's 85x56mm

Secondly the GPIO header is not in quite the same place. It is nearer the yellow video out socket which means many expansion boards will not physically fit as they will foul that connector.

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