fanoush
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Matematica removed from raspbian image

Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:48 pm

The latest update or raspbian removed Mathematica. As it is quite heavy and many people don't use it I guess it is good choice. However the relase notes just has single line to say
* Removed Mathematica
without any explanation and people already start speculating https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/p ... provements

Also the repository at http://repository.wolfram.com/raspbian/dists/stable is currently down

So will mathematica/wolfram-engine be still available as manual install?

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RaTTuS
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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:51 pm

AIUI, the contract has finished,
therefor it has to be removed
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k-pi
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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:16 pm

I don't know how many people actually used it, but I am one who immediately removes it, saving around about 600MB of disk space. :D

Quite often the next thing to go is the Office suite too, plus the programming stuff. I've tried coming at it from the other way, that is, using the minimal install, but I like having the little extra programs, so I remove, rather than add stuff. 8-)

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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:24 pm

RaTTuS wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:51 pm
AIUI, the contract has finished,
therefor it has to be removed
This is correct. The contract was for 5 years and has expired.
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Andyroo
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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:34 pm

Does it mean it will stop working on those machines that still have it installed?
Need Pi spray - these things are breeding in my house...

fanoush
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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:35 pm

Oh, what a bad surprise. I wouldn't believe it would be done like this - without any announcement or previous warning.

jamesh
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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:35 pm

fanoush wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:48 pm
without any explanation and people already start speculating https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/p ... provements
Wow, the last post on that Phoronix thread is a cracker. So much incorrect information in one post. I thought about registering just to reply, but didn't find anyway of doing it without paying for a subscription!

Just FYI, the last line in that post is completely wrong. As is the statement about 300MHz as an ethernet speed (?), no idea what they mean about the display either. Just a wild rant from someone very badly informed.


Wolfram is removed, both from the current image and previous images as our licence to distribute has expired. It may well appear in the repos at a later date, depending on contracts etc.
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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:36 pm

Andyroo wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:34 pm
Does it mean it will stop working on those machines that still have it installed?
I don't believe so.
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Mortimer
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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:57 pm

Looks like someone (DrYak) has stepped up to counter the mis-information post at Phoronix.

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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:31 pm

Mortimer wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:57 pm
Looks like someone (DrYak) has stepped up to counter the mis-information post at Phoronix.
Indeed. It always amazes me how virulent some poeople can be about what is, in effect, a charity project aimed at teaching children. Yes, things have broadended out to cover a lot more than education, but education is where all the money goes.

I suspect its people who have been banned from these forums for concern trolling, or just generally being dicks, and need someway to vent their self generated frustrations.
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ShiftPlusOne
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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:33 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:35 pm
Wow, the last post on that Phoronix thread is a cracker. So much incorrect information in one post. I thought about registering just to reply, but didn't find anyway of doing it without paying for a subscription!
Right!? I was curious, so I checked his post history and that just seems to be how he is. Whether it's about Coninical, Microsoft, Raspberry Pi or anything else, he'll have an axe to grind. I can't imagine that being a healthy way to live.

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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:43 pm

ShiftPlusOne wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:33 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:35 pm
Wow, the last post on that Phoronix thread is a cracker. So much incorrect information in one post. I thought about registering just to reply, but didn't find anyway of doing it without paying for a subscription!
Right!? I was curious, so I checked his post history and that just seems to be how he is. Whether it's about Coninical, Microsoft, Raspberry Pi or anything else, he'll have an axe to grind. I can't imagine that being a healthy way to live.
Indeed!
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B.Goode
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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:34 pm

The text is probably only for advice/guidance, and not in any way legally binding, but the explanatory wording on the Raspberry Pi Foundation Raspbian downloads page is now potentially misleading and probably needs a consequential update:
Mathematica and the Wolfram Language are included in this release under license and with permission of Wolfram Research, Inc. and may be used for non-commercial purposes only. By using this software you agree to be bound by the Wolfram Raspberry Pi Bundle License Agreement available here.

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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:35 pm

B.Goode wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:34 pm
The text is probably only for advice/guidance, and not in any way legally binding, but the explanatory wording on the Raspberry Pi Foundation Raspbian downloads page is now potentially misleading and probably needs a consequential update:
Mathematica and the Wolfram Language are included in this release under license and with permission of Wolfram Research, Inc. and may be used for non-commercial purposes only. By using this software you agree to be bound by the Wolfram Raspberry Pi Bundle License Agreement available here.
Good spot! I'll get that updated.
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ejolson
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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:13 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:31 pm
Indeed. It always amazes me how virulent some poeople can be about what is, in effect, a charity project aimed at teaching children. Yes, things have broadended out to cover a lot more than education, but education is where all the money goes.
In recent years I have recommended the Pi to students as an affordable way to run Mathematica at home. In my opinion shutting off the license at midterm without warning was not the right things to do. As I've stated before, the inclusion of a free version of Mathematica has been an essential differentiator between the Raspberry Pi and other Pi-like single board computers. In my opinion, any surprise loss of product functionality has the potential to break an essential trust relationship with a vendor. Such things can also cause people who had previously supported purchase of Pi computers in education to look foolish and lose credibility.

I suspect the increasing capability of recent models of Pi to run Mathematica plays a role in the difficulty of renewing the free license included with the Pi. Perhaps that license started to compete with individual sales of $100 student licenses for Intel-compatible machines. New Pi hardware under development would likely make this situation even worse.

If Wolfram won't relicense the Raspberry Pi, maybe their competitor Maple will. Note that teachers and students where I work actually prefer Maple to Mathematica. Alternatively, availability of a $10 personal license for the Pi would be better than nothing. As it stands, the current situation is disappointing.

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bensimmo
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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:59 pm

I always liked MathCad (by mathsoft) though not used it really since PTC purchased them.
Slightly different though ;-)

Await to see if a new license (or even more/other companies can be included in recommend software as free to use versions).
It's no great loss to me, but the articles using it may need to recommend the use of an older Raspbian Image.
e.g.
https://projects.raspberrypi.org/en/pro ... athematica


And give them a nudge
http://www.wolfram.com/raspberry-pi/

Interestingly you are only licensed (as a user) to use in on A and B Pi's (not 2B, B+, 3B and certainly not Zeros...)
http://www.wolfram.com/legal/agreements ... ry-pi.html
Permitted Uses and Installations
Subject to the terms of this Agreement and Your acceptance thereof, WRI grants You a non-exclusive license to use the Product solely for personal or educational purposes on a Model A or Model B Raspberry Pi computer. You are also authorized to:
...

ejolson
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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:29 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:59 pm
Interestingly you are only licensed (as a user) to use in on A and B Pi's (not 2B, B+, 3B and certainly not Zeros...)
http://www.wolfram.com/legal/agreements ... ry-pi.html
Permitted Uses and Installations
Subject to the terms of this Agreement and Your acceptance thereof, WRI grants You a non-exclusive license to use the Product solely for personal or educational purposes on a Model A or Model B Raspberry Pi computer. You are also authorized to:
...
I asked this question when the Pi 2B came out. In the comments on this blog post Ben Nuttall says
Ben Nuttall wrote:> Will Mathematica still be free for the faster CPU?

Yes! :)

Keep an eye on http://www.walkingrandomly.com over the next few days.
It appears that the days when a Mathematica license was included with the Pi are over. I have a few practical questions:

What are the terms of the license conditions when running an already installed version of Mathematica? Will it cease to function when the system updates? If the Pi is not connected to the Internet will Mathematica continue to function and is that okay from a legal point of view?

ShiftPlusOne
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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:44 pm

I'm not a lawyer so take this with a few pounds of salt.

The license that they published for the user can be found here:
https://www.wolfram.com/legal/agreement ... ry-pi.html

Until that license is revoked, I don't see anything in there that would make using a copy you already have illegal. I don't see an expiry date there.

The agreement that has come to an end was what allowed us to distribute it in our images and repo.

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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:48 am

ejolson wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:13 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:31 pm
Indeed. It always amazes me how virulent some poeople can be about what is, in effect, a charity project aimed at teaching children. Yes, things have broadended out to cover a lot more than education, but education is where all the money goes.
In recent years I have recommended the Pi to students as an affordable way to run Mathematica at home. In my opinion shutting off the license at midterm without warning was not the right things to do. As I've stated before, the inclusion of a free version of Mathematica has been an essential differentiator between the Raspberry Pi and other Pi-like single board computers. In my opinion, any surprise loss of product functionality has the potential to break an essential trust relationship with a vendor. Such things can also cause people who had previously supported purchase of Pi computers in education to look foolish and lose credibility.

I suspect the increasing capability of recent models of Pi to run Mathematica plays a role in the difficulty of renewing the free license included with the Pi. Perhaps that license started to compete with individual sales of $100 student licenses for Intel-compatible machines. New Pi hardware under development would likely make this situation even worse.

If Wolfram won't relicense the Raspberry Pi, maybe their competitor Maple will. Note that teachers and students where I work actually prefer Maple to Mathematica. Alternatively, availability of a $10 personal license for the Pi would be better than nothing. As it stands, the current situation is disappointing.
Your current installations will continue to work. However, all images supplied by us can no longer include Mathematica. So your current classes can continue as before, you won't lose anything unless you reimage your cards with a new download. At least that is as I understand it. IANAL.
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ejolson
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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:44 am

jamesh wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:48 am
Your current installations will continue to work. However, all images supplied by us can no longer include Mathematica. So your current classes can continue as before, you won't lose anything unless you reimage your cards with a new download. At least that is as I understand it. IANAL.
Thanks for making that clear!

hippy
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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:06 pm

Does anyone know what the situation is if one has downloaded Wolfram-Engine from the Raspberry Pi package pool or one of the other mirrors and had installed / wanted to install from that, for example -

https://mirror.linjama.com/archive.rasp ... ram-engine

It's not entirely clear if the license to use Mathematica has been revoked or only the license to distribute Mathematica has been revoked. Wolfram seem to be suggesting a license to use still exists -

http://www.wolfram.com/legal/agreements ... ry-pi.html

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bensimmo
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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:19 pm

hippy it's been mentioned a few times. It's distribution with the 'bundle'. Also known as aRaspbian image.

Use is seperate and from Wolfram so use their website for the license and for questions on its use.
They still have the license, but no means to download it.
I posted before, anything but the Pi A and Pi B is 'technically' not licensed anyway, despite what Ben N said in a blog post reply. He's not Wolfram.
(Even if it's a Wolfram oversight that it was never altered to include the B+ and beyond)
Hopefully Wolfram will add a free for "educational use on the Pi " download so they can continue to entice people to use it.
But that's a question for them.
http://www.wolfram.com/connect/
http://community.wolfram.com/content?cu ... berry%20pi
Last edited by bensimmo on Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hippy
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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:33 pm

We know what the situation is with respect to the Foundation and what's included with their download images, paraphrased, "Mathematica is no longer included in Foundation provided download images and will be removed from old download images".

Everything else is separate to that, as you say, and it's up to Wolfram to provide details on that.

MountainHawk81
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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:06 pm

Mathematica + Wolfram Language will continue to be available on the Raspberry Pi, and can currently be downloaded from http://www.wolfram.com/raspberry-pi/

The following command will install Mathematica + Wolfram Language:

sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install wolfram-engine

Existing Mathematica + Wolfram Language installations on RasPi will continue to work as before.

ShiftPlusOne
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Re: Matematica removed from raspbian image

Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:17 pm

I don't know what the arrangement will be in the end, but the package is back in the repo now.

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