A little help or insparation

[Dal]

Hi everyone

I hope that everyone is enjoying their new Pi (or for those still waiting, I hope you get yours soon).

I've be working with Windows far too long an although I've tried to use Linux in the past it's been a huge disappointment (not the Linux environment or the many flavours of it) but the lack of support of software and the usage. I did try Ubuntu and I've got a book sitting on my self for the past 3 years which hasn't been opened. I simply can't use Linux because I don't have any games that work under it nor does any of my software that I use for my work work under it.

I was hoping that the Raspberry Pi would allow me entry into this world and I think I've read that the May release is more of a testing and development stage which is why I can't find any info which is clear.

SLOW
I have managed to get everything setup and I'm sitting with my Debian desktop and a Midori browser. The first thing I noticed was that even loading web pages was incredibly slow (slower than what I remember my 64Mhz machine ran at back in 1996 (with the "Turbo" button on).

INSTALL
Being from windows I'm in the habbit of looking for .exe's (which I know is stupid). I did download Quake3 to the desktop and extracted the .zip. I thought i'd give it a go but double clicking ioquake3.arm or start.sh doesn't do anything. I've read something about creating a partition and copying over and running commands like dkdosk: kdkdk/dd;orkkgg//gofkkfkfkjgdfkdkdfkkdf dfjkfkkf or similar . What was the point of a GUI if I have to "type" commands? I'm pretty sure that the whole reason for GUI is so you don't have to but I can't understand why trying to open ioquake3.arm doesn't work. Even Debian file manager says "ioquake3.arm (2.1 MB executable" in the status bar when the file is highlighted, so everything points to it being able to be executed?!

Please help me to understand but it seems that Linux on a desktop was complicated but Raspberry Pi has made it worse! I'm now faced with trying to find topics that are rewrote to Raspberry Pi standards since the normal Linux distributions don't work.

Any recommendations for absolute beginners guides for Linux?
What do people with Linux use there computers for (I mean flash won't even install from Adobe for Midori)?

I mean no disrespect to anyone, I'm just frustrated that I don't find Linux easy and everything seems cryptic from the command line views.

Thanks in advance

[spurious]

The R-Pi is never going to replace your speedy desktop experience. This machine costs £30 not £500.
The whole project is intended for users to learn about computers, and with that in mind to stop the total reliance on a drag, drop, click interface. Why not spend a little time to learn the command line?!
What about the machine initiated your interest in the first place?

[Joe Schmoe]

What was your objective in buying a Pi?

I.e., when you sat down at your PC and filled out the order form and pressed "Send", what sort of thoughts were running through your mind? What goals did you have in mind for the Pi?

Answering those questions will go a long way to answering the questions in your OP.

I'm actually not being sarcastic here (well, not much), but whenever I see one of these "Why isn't Linux like Windows?" posts, the first, second, third, and fourth things that come to my mind are "If I want Windows, I know where to find it." I.e., if you wanted Windows, why didn't you just buy a(nother) Windows box?

[abishur]

As a fellow Windows user myself, my suggestion is to ditch the gui. It was the best thing I ever did to learn and appreciate linux. For the moment, this goes double with the r-pi because the lxde environment isn't making use of the full potential of the GPU (hence it going super slow). If you keep using the gui you're going to get more and more upset until you end up just throwing the pi through your tv Once you get into the bash prompt, you'll find that there are actually a lot of interesting things you can do. I'm actually running a lot of old-time games (I.E. from around the Nineties) either straight off the frame buffer (such as Star Control 2) or via dosbox (such as Windows 3.1, Chip's Challenge, assorted Edutainment software, Commander Keen, etc).

You can also set up XBMC if you want to re-purpose it as a media center until the desktop environment gets up to speed (so to speak), you can install samba and use it as a 24/7 energy efficient file server, put apache on there and have a webserver, and so forth and so on, and you can do it all using nothing more than bash prompt. You don't need a book to learn linux. Joe is spot on in asking what you want to do. Web browsing isn't really on the list of (in my opinion) things the pi can do right now. Sure if you're patient enough it will all work, but let's be honest, we have certain expectations about speeds and while I believe the pi will hit that acceptable range once the GUI makes better use of the GPU, right now it just isn't there , so since that's out what's the next thing you would want to do with it? Once you have that identified go and have fun making it happen!

[mike632t]

Hi,
I don't think that the Raspberry Pi is going to replace your Windows laptop or desktop running Office, anytime soon and you aren't going to find any modern games that you can run on it either, simply because it was never meant to do either of those things.

Your Raspberry Pi exists to allow you to use it to figure out how computers work and it's low cost makes it suitable for use as as a dedicated device - like a media player or web server. It was intended as a tool to allow you to learn how to write your own programs, or to find out more about the hardware by using it as a controller or data capture device of some sort (defiantly not trivial).

So if that is the sort of think you had in mind when you brought your Raspberry Pi then I'd suggest you persevere. Ignore the difficult stuff for now, if you want to learn how to write programs all you really need to get started is an editor and a terminal window.

Mike632T.

(Just written my first python script - well the first one after 'hello-world.py' anyway).

[Dal]

First off, thanks guys for posting a response. I feared that I may come across as someone who knows little and maybe someone who has gone in a strop because it wasn't a xBox 360 (btw: I'm more supportive of the PC games market which is breaking my heart to find my local retailers have smaller and smaller shelves for PC games and everything seems to be console driven).

Just for the record, I tried to respond to spurious and Joe Schmoe earlier through my iPhone but the session died at the point of submitting so now I'm back on my PC I'm sure this message will get through.

I realise that this is not a replacement for a desktop and I suppose the things that I had in mind when I ordered the raspberry pi was:

+ A chance to enter a community and explore the possibilities with newcomers
+ With over 10 years experience as a WAMP web developer (I use a Linux server managed by my host, I won't touch MS servers because I want my website to stay live!)
+ Hopefully find people who are like myself and are starting out in Linux
+ Support (this forum is already so active that I feel I'll be hanging out here quite a bit to read and post)
+ Although this was secondary and I probably will be doing most of the development on the desktop, I wanted to get back into application development and possible explore the RPi opportunities with C++ and/or Phython scripting.
+ Linux networking and server setups, since I haven't the knowledge or experience with server tech I wanted to treat me RPi as a means of using my desktop PC to log-on to my RPi (Apache server) in hopes that one day I'm proficient enough to look after a dedicated server as opposed to a managed one.

Thanks abishur for maybe understanding a little more of where I'm coming from. Your words are very helpful and I think you've made me realise that although RPi is a great little computer that the GUI is not up to date, from what I was seeing everywhere it seemed like it was.

I tried an image I found of OpenELEC supplied in another post by effbiai (http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewt ... f=4&t=5723) and although the image worked (give it at least 20 seconds of black screen if anyone else tries this as it's quite slow to start) I managed to get it working. This is the first time I've used this but to tell you the truth that caused me more frustration since the add-on's didn't do anything?! I tried facebook add-on but after downloading it, it didn't appear anywhere that I could find other than in the list of add-ons, pressing enter when it was highlighted didn't do anything and this was the same for the rest of them I downloaded into OpenELEC (i.e. TV guide and such like).

Samba sounds like my next try although I'm I looking for a raspberry pi release or just Samba?

I'll give the command line more of my attention too since you suggested that the GUI environment is not ready for everyday use and I'm hoping that I find your enthusiasm for the command-line. (last time I done anything with the command line was DOS 6.5 I think back in windows 3.1 days and I only ever use CMD for pinging and nslookup commands now).

DOSBox sounds interesting and I've still got all of my old games from early to late 90's that start in DOS mode. I assumed that DOSBox required a x86 processor type from what I've read but I suppose some of my frustration is from misinformation on the web too.

As for Quake 3 problems, I've been browsing the web and I may have a solution over at http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewt ... =63&t=6511 written by simonlc (found that through surfing on my quick PC as trying to surf on the RPi was way too slow) .

Thanks again for your responses and if there's any weblinks that would be particularly helpful please suggest them as I'm going to need all the help I can get to undo all of the Windows brainwashing I've had over the past 18 years.



PS: Is Hacking a term used in the linux community to mean "get working"? In Windows that just means everyone else on the other side of your keyboard trying to get into your system

I need a Linux glossary of terms I think too

Thanks again
Dal

**Additional**
As I was writing this (lengthy) reply mike632t has responded.

Thanks mike632t, Hey your learning Python too, maybe we could help each other? What's your background, any other programming languages?

[mahjongg]

First off, thanks guys for posting a response. I feared that I may come across as someone who knows little and maybe someone who has gone in a strop because it wasn't a xBox 360

Funny you are mentioning the xBox, because in may ways the relative performance of the components in the R-PI (CPU and GPU, and amount of RAM) very much resembles what is in the XBox 1 (but not the 360 which is much more powerful, and has much more RAM, say a six-fold increase in both).

The main thing is that many of the stuff that would make the R-PI appear faster isn't ready yet, or isn't used. I think the R-PI will transform a bit in the next few months, it will never be a speed demon, but will become a bit more stable, easier, and more responsive than it is now. But it will still be a device primarily intended for learning how to program (in Python), and yes, you can do that just as well without a GUI.

[Narishma]

Here's a good place to start learning the command line (or shell as it's called in Linux): http://linuxcommand.org/learning_the_shell.php

[Dal]

Here's a good place to start learning the command line (or shell as it's called in Linux): http://linuxcommand.org/learning_the_shell.php

Thanks for the link

[lobster]

Use the Arch
with JWM
here is how
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/PuppiArch

[abishur]

If you want to give the xbmc thing another try, I've used the debian base distro and instructions from this post with great success.

You don't necessarily need to look for an "R-pi" package, just a package for Debian Squeeze Armel. I use this link to search available packages for Debian Squeeze Armel. Now, while most of the packages will download and install with no problem, some of them will be incompatible, but until you try, you won't be able to figure it out You'll come to have a love/hate relationship with apt-get (the command line package installer)

Samba can be a beast to get working, but patience and perseverance will see you through

[spurious]

If you want to install samba server

Code: Select all

apt-get install samba smbfs

If you just wanting the client

Code: Select all

apt-get install smbclient smbfs

Some notes
http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/ubuntu/i ... on-ubuntu/

I would also try to get to grips with vi, which is an alias for vim. This is a very powerful text editor.

[fromagique]

I have never needed to install smbfs--just samba. (They aren't joined at the hip, in other words.) Also, you might look into exploring the aptitude tool--it's what I use for most of my package management.

[andyl]

PS: Is Hacking a term used in the linux community to mean "get working"? In Windows that just means everyone else on the other side of your keyboard trying to get into your system

I need a Linux glossary of terms I think too

Hacking is more a programmer thing. It is more prevalent in the Unix/Linux community than the Windows one but it is there too. We tend to call the bad guys crackers.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_%28 ... culture%29 and http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/ in particular http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/H/hacker.html

[Dal]

Thanks andyl for the link, the Jargon File was not only informative but funny! (I especially like the "Soundalike slang"

Strangely, "Hacker" or to "Hack" doesn't seem to be well understood on the Windows environment and even after completing 2 commercial security courses the term "hacker" was still being used and not corrected to "cracker". None-the-less, I'm now educated.

Thanks spurious for showing the console line, I can now understand!

Thanks fromagique, I now don't understand spurious's console line!

If the following installs samba server

Code: Select all

apt-get install samba smbfs

and this installs the client

Code: Select all

apt-get install smbclient smbfs

Then from what fromagigue is suggesting:

Code: Select all

apt-get install samba

Should install?

With regards to Vi - it was nice to hear something I've used on my Linux server, although it's managed I have access to Vi for Cron jobs (by far no expert though).

Thanks abishur. I'll certainly be interested in giving it another go at XBMC/OpenElec.
With the suggested Debian distro "Armel" I take it that ARMel is relating to ARM chip is it not? I'm I basically trying to make sure that anything used is geared towards ARM chipset and thus will have a better chance of working with RPi or was that an assumption I should not have leaped to?

One other question has come about with everyones useful information (thank you very much again!)

I've been downloading an image and using Windows Disk Imager to write the image to the SD card each time and thus overwriting the last image completely. I'm I right in assuming that I can simply grab a CLI like Debian and then install Samba server, XBMC and possibly even a Boot manager all from apt-get commands and this will keep Debian but give me access to start the other services (not sure what the Linux term for a program starting in memory is) via the CLI?

Many thanks, I really appreciate everyone's input, it's helping sooo much!

[daviewales]

<rant>I've now lost two separate drafts of replies... I am very annoyed. The first draft took me over 2 hours to write, and was basically a complete tutorial on all the things you need to know to get started... By the time I clicked Preview, I had been logged out, and when I logged back in, everything was gone... >( Then I typed a quick, much shorter version, and thought "Just to make sure I don't lose it, I'll click "Save draft". So I did... And it disappeared too..." This time, I'm just clicking send... =O. </rant>

May I suggest the following website as a valuable resource? It includes detailed guides on learning several different languages, as well as a basic primer in using the command line. The free online Python book is very good, although it's Python 2, rather than Python 3.

http://learncodethehardway.org/

The name sounds scary, but, as the author puts it:

" The title says it's the hard way to learn to write code; but it's actually not. It's only the "hard" way because it's the way people used to teach things."

I recommend starting with the quick command line primer, http://cli.learncodethehardway.org/book/ (It appears to be down at the moment, but should be up soon.)

Following this, I recommend working through either Learn Python the Hard Way http://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/ or Learn Ruby the Hard Way http://ruby.learncodethehardway.org/book/

All these links point to free HTML versions of the books, but there is also the option to purchase them as ePub files or PDF docs.

[Dal]

I want to thank daviewales for taking up so much of his valuable time!

Regarding <rant>, I mentioned on my first reply that the iPhone did exactly as you experienced (although I only lost about 15 minutes of typing). When I put a site together I always complete the last process before kicking the user as there's nothing more frustrating than loosing your work. Most of the time your first version is the best too so I feel for you.

Thanks for the link, I've started Python last night (well looking at some of the features such as wxPython) so this will come in very handy thank you.

Not sure about Ruby since I've already covered Perl (which I did not like), PHP (which I've used for quite some time and love). It seems like Python would be the next sensible step (although I was toying with the idea of getting back into C++ but hit some consistency issues between pc, mac and linux which may cause more complication than I'm ready to cope with).

I'm still really working out where my future is in the industry (I won't get into it) but I'm trying to get out of web dev and become more app dev for desktop and portable devices (maybe across all platforms),... stopping typing now! As you've seen from my previous posts: I DO GO ON A BIT!

Many thanks

[rurwin]

What do people with Linux use there computers for (I mean flash won't even install from Adobe for Midori)

The Raspberry Pi is a bit of a special case, being very small and using the ARM CPU.
I use Linux for everything I would use a PC for. I even installed it for some mates who know nothing of computers. The only reason they got XP back was that they could't play their games.

That is the only problem with Linux; there are not enough people using it for manufacturers to support it. That goes for both hardware and software. It isn't as bad now as it was, but you wont find the top-end games available for Linux.

[piglet]

but you wont find the top-end games available for Linux.

The best shoot-em-up ever written (Unreal Tournament 2004) runs on Linux. Closed source. x86 and Mac OS X only I believe.

[Dal]

For the record I did not say the above "but you wont find the top-end games available for Linux." (it appears there's a formatting/bb error with the quote above)

I know software isn't readily available for Linux compared to Windows but quite a few games seem to support most OS. I remember playing Myst on my mates Macintosh but I could take the same disc back to my Windows PC and install it on there.

I'm also starting to resent the whole "PC" hatred which I don't know where it's come from. A personal computer is the computer and Windows is windows don't get the two things mixed up because one is such an amazing device that I love and the other is made by an evil corporation that I'm sure is the real "sky net" although the drones are used for telephone support in most cases and have less personality than the T-series

Actually thinking about it it may have come from that cleaver advert from Mac. The one with "I'm a PC and I'm a Mac" but a Mac is a PC but they couldn't say Microsoft Windows for legal reasons?!

[Joe Schmoe]

You've been taking word salad lessons from Sarah Palin, haven't you?

[Dal]

You've been taking word salad lessons from Sarah Palin, haven't you?

Not sure what you mean?

[Joe Schmoe]

You've been taking word salad lessons from Sarah Palin, haven't you?

Not sure what you mean?

Oh, I think you do. There's nothing complicated about it. Just a simple question...

Anyway, you might want to look up both "word salad" and "Sarah Palin" in Wikipedia. I think you will find it instructive.

[abishur]

You've been taking word salad lessons from Sarah Palin, haven't you?

Not sure what you mean?

It's a joke about an American female politician from Alaska that most people tend to dislike or at the very least mock for her conservative values and "folksy" ways (that's not a personal opinion, just a factual statement, please don't try and make the political war, I'm just trying to provide context ), outside of the states the reference looses some of it's punch, but the phrase word salad means you're putting together a bunch of phrase that sound good but lack substance. This is a favorite dig people like to throw at Palin to dismiss anything she has to say, and it doesn't help that often times it is *very* hard to follow her logic.

As it relates to your post, however, I don't think word salad is a fair assessment There is PC (windows) animosity on the forum, but it's been slowly developed by people who unlike you come in guns a blazing because it's not windows.

[Dal]

Not really sure how to respond to that Joe?

Was there something I've wrote that offends or has confused you? Maybe the fact that we don't get to see the US political leadership here in the UK much makes it harder to relate to "Sarah Palin" but labelling my words as some kind of pick 'n' mix or salad seems a bit harsh!