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nick.mccloud
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 8:47 pm

bamboozled said:


scep said:


whingeing ... makes a big difference ... people will listen to you and take you seriously.


Selective quotation is a wonderful tool.


It's how people reading your post feel that counts as part of the flow communication just as much as your internal intent (which we are not privy to) and I got the same impression as scep and gathering by some of the other posts, others did too.

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Tass
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 8:52 pm

Should we simply take a vote on this?

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 9:17 pm

The Foundation listens and observes. All the time. Loads of stuff gets fed back. Did people know that boards being returned to Farnell/RS for being faulty are returned to the Foundation for further testing to see why they have gone wrong? Did people know that continual work is being done by Foundation members (not just distro people) to improve the distro's, and make them easier to use? Using information that appears here? Did people know that Pi people at Broadcom are continually talking about this stuff, trying to fix stuff, and make it better?

Some yes, some no, I imagine. It just doesn't get advertised. Don't take a lack of information for a lack of action, and, indeed, progress. Also, don't take the comments from people on this forum as if they all come from the Foundation. They don't. This is a public forum, which allows public posting. Providing you are polite and on topic, you can write what you like.

That said, when the new forum comes online, the Beginers forum will be more heavily moderated to ensure the questions are indeed beginners questions. They are drifting at the moment.
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 9:19 pm

Well I for one could well have ordered a Pi expecting more. I was initially put off by the need for an HDMI TV (or DVI) for decent video so did not rush to buy.  It was much much later that I read how slow it might be i.e. Pentium III

The FAQ still has this as its first entry

"INTRODUCTION

What’s a Raspberry Pi?

The Raspberry Pi is a credit-card sized computer that plugs into your TV and a keyboard. It’s a capable little PC which can be used for many of the things that your desktop PC does, like spreadsheets, word-processing and games. It also plays high-definition video. We want to see it being used by kids all over the world to learn programming."

"It’s a capable little PC which can be used for many of the things that your desktop PC does, like spreadsheets, word-processing and games" Hardly sets the correct level of expectation in my opinion. I would not be surprised if a number of people are disappointed when they get their hands on the Pi and that bambozled is not the only one.

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scep
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 9:21 pm

bamboozled said:


Selective quotation is a wonderful tool.


The difference being, I didn't selectively join words up to deliberately change the meaning:



bamboozled said:

For what itIs worth, I thought I"d post my first impressions of getting my Pi this week. I had managed to follow the instructions on preparing a SD card with the Debian Squeeze operating system, although I couldn"t get it to fit on a 2GB card and had to sacrifice the 4GB card from my camera

It booted up OK, although I found the requirement for a username and password an unneccessarily intrusive step. It"s oiny me who"s going to be using it, for heaven"s sake! Thankfully there"s enough space on the internet connector to write the username and password, plus the magic word to boot the graphics. So far, so crude.

The display seems really poor on my 1080p monitor – a small low resolution rectangle in the middle of a black box. Reminds me a bit of the old 80s micros. I was expecting it to fill the screen, like my real computer desktop does. Perhaps it"s to save memory or something, I don"t know.

So, I find the internet browser, which seems to be named after a bright green Japanese liqueur. I try the BBC websit – Success! Well, after a fashion. Apparently I need to install Flash. So I click the link and Adobe obligingly provides me with the Linux Flash. For Firefox. Only.

So I go to Firefox to download that. I get the files onto the desktop – but no way can I get it to run. I"ve managed to unpack the files into a folder called Pi, but that"s all.

So I turn to the Forum I register, and am given a password so fiendishly complicated it takes me four tries to type it in. Then I start posting here – and BOY IS IT SLOW! It is currently taking between 10 and fifteen seconds to register a mouse click, and a similar length of time to catch up with my typing.

So at the moment I"m rather bitterly disappointed, with a device that can"t even achieve what my four year old mobile phone can do effortlessly…

And yes, I have tried reading the forums, including the Absolute Beginners, for some time before I received the Pi. Most of it is total Greek. And there is SO MUCH of it – I don"t have three lifetimes spare to go through it.



But I would like to say that if it makes you feel better about your original post, it's a splendid thing – don't let the naysayers and knockers tell you otherwise. Or as I will no doubt be quoted later:


"I … would like to … feel … your … splendid … knockers."


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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 9:26 pm

KeithSloan said:


Well I for one could well have ordered a Pi expecting more. I was initially put off by the need for an HDMI TV (or DVI) for decent video so did not rush to buy.  It was much much later that I read how slow it might be i.e. Pentium III

The FAQ still has this as its first entry

"INTRODUCTION

What’s a Raspberry Pi?

The Raspberry Pi is a credit-card sized computer that plugs into your TV and a keyboard. It’s a capable little PC which can be used for many of the things that your desktop PC does, like spreadsheets, word-processing and games. It also plays high-definition video. We want to see it being used by kids all over the world to learn programming."

"It’s a capable little PC which can be used for many of the things that your desktop PC does, like spreadsheets, word-processing and games" Hardly sets the correct level of expectation in my opinion. I would not be surprised if a number of people are disappointed when they get their hands on the Pi and that bambozled is not the only one.


Nothing in that paragraph though is untrue. It can do spreadsheets, word processing, games and hi-def video. Not to the same level at your £300 desktop/laptop (except the video, which is probably better) - as you might expect for something that costs 1/10th of the price.

As someone suggested, some sort of table explaining how performance will vary might be in order, but on the whole, it's really only the performance level which is different, and the fact that the software is currently still under development, but tbh, software is ALWAYS under development!
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 9:30 pm


"It can do spreadsheets, word processing"


Is that with OpenOffice or LibreOffice or something else. I have not seen any video's showing OpenOffice or LibreOffice

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 9:34 pm

Libreoffice should work, but there are lower requirement options that are a better fit. A quick google for Linux wordprocessors and spreadsheets should find them.
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 9:41 pm


but there are lower requirement options that are a better fit.


Thats what I thought. Seems to be the order of the day on most applications including browsers. Not hard to see why some people may have been miss lead and disappointed.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Wed May 09, 2012 10:01 pm

KeithSloan said:



but there are lower requirement options that are a better fit.


Thats what I thought. Seems to be the order of the day on most applications including browsers. Not hard to see why some people may have been miss lead and disappointed.


Only those that have a well developed capacity for self-deception. Or an over inflated sense of entitlement.

It's a $35 computer. Mostly, they are 10 times the price. What the hell can any right thinking person realistically expect?????

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Thu May 10, 2012 7:24 am

JamesH said:


Libreoffice should work, but there are lower requirement options that are a better fit. A quick google for Linux wordprocessors and spreadsheets should find them.


I have just done just that, and one of the first links was to a Wikipedia page which listed 12 word word-processors, only two of which (LibreOffice and OpenOffice) I had ever heard of before... well apart from WordPerfect, from way back when, of course!

Any recommendations as to which ones would be more suitable for use with the Raspberry Pi please?

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Thu May 10, 2012 8:09 am

No idea! But it's pretty easy to just try many of them out - this is what this initial period of 'development' is for, to find out what works best.

LibreOffice and OpenOffice are pretty much the same - LibreOffice is a fork (i.e. copy of original codebase, then modified) of OpenOffice but I think it's a bit better.
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Thu May 10, 2012 8:10 am

nmcc said:


KeithSloan said:



but there are lower requirement options that are a better fit.


Thats what I thought. Seems to be the order of the day on most applications including browsers. Not hard to see why some people may have been miss lead and disappointed.


Only those that have a well developed capacity for self-deception. Or an over inflated sense of entitlement.

It's a $35 computer. Mostly, they are 10 times the price. What the hell can any right thinking person realistically expect?????


Chill Dude. You are perpetuating the 'Linux people don't care about beginners' meme. Which is what this thread is all about.
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Thu May 10, 2012 8:38 am

JamesH said:


nmcc said:


Only those that have a well developed capacity for self-deception. Or an over inflated sense of entitlement.

It's a $35 computer. Mostly, they are 10 times the price. What the hell can any right thinking person realistically expect?????


Chill Dude. You are perpetuating the 'Linux people don't care about beginners' meme. Which is what this thread is all about.


I'm most definitely not a linux person - I've never been so insulted in my life

As an Mac OS, iOS & Microsoft accredited developer as well as using linux for server requirements and some desktop.  I'm a solutions person - best solution for the job.

I care passionately about beginners - which is why I'm here and have been testing everything I can lay my hands on since I got my Pi - but I also care passionately that we don't perpetrate the culture that got us to the point where the Pi was needed to be created.

I regularly see users with the most fantastic expectations around new things - mostly fueled by the outrageous claims of marketing depts. People would fair so much better if they took such claims with a pinch of salt and actually investigated what they were getting in to. Saying otherwise isn't helping them and it doesn't help people like you & me that develop & create new things.

Everyone's looking for shortcuts. I upset lots of people all the time by explaining that there aren't any. My best one being people that ask me how to be a good programmer and I point them to this: http://norvig.com/21-days.html

Maybe the new forums should have a private area for those of us that want to discuss solutions to the challenge of presenting the Pi in the right context. Although this chap seems to have done most of the work for us:

http://www.raspberrypi.org/for.....erspective

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Thu May 10, 2012 8:43 am

See post 8:

unable-to-install-openoffice-org-on-debian-6-19-04-2012

woodinblack
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Thu May 10, 2012 8:43 am

KeithSloan said:



Only those that have a well developed capacity for self-deception. Or an over inflated sense of entitlement.


or who have no knowledge of computers and read exactly what is written here and in other places, such as absolute beginners

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Thu May 10, 2012 8:44 am

Abiword seems to be a lightweight alternative for WP which seems qutie good on Lubuntu.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Thu May 10, 2012 9:11 am

gimliflea said:


Abiword seems to be a lightweight alternative for WP which seems qutie good on Lubuntu.


Thank you for the suggestion... if only I had a Raspberry Pi already I could check some of them out for myself, but (like a lot of others) I am still waiting for the magic email!

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Thu May 10, 2012 9:18 am

woodinblack said:


KeithSloan said:


Only those that have a well developed capacity for self-deception. Or an over inflated sense of entitlement.


or who have no knowledge of computers and read exactly what is written here and in other places, such as absolute beginners



I never said that you are quoting the wrong person. Please don't go round quoting the wrong person.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Thu May 10, 2012 9:24 am

ADMIN NOTICE. I'm not picking out anyone in particular, but I detect a heightened sense of anxiety, so  keep it civil here or I will close the thread.
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Thu May 10, 2012 10:10 am

KeithSloan said:

I never said that you are quoting the wrong person. Please don"t go round quoting the wrong person.


a thousand appologies, I did misquote you and I am sorry, this forum hasto be one of the most awkward ones to use, but that still shouldn"t be an excuse

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Thu May 10, 2012 11:14 am

nmcc said:

It's a $35 computer. Mostly, they are 10 times the price. What the hell can any right thinking person realistically expect?????
ebuyer do a motherboard bundle ( AMD Sempron 145 2.8GHz with cooler, 4GB memory and Asus motherboard ) for £76 inc VAT. Take away the VAT, £63, take off the profit mark-up and what's the cost of that ? £40 ?

There's a lot of acreage and stuff on a PC motherboard that an R-Pi doesn't need so what would be the cost if all that could have been missed off ? Obviously lower still; £35 ?

So why wouldn't a right thinking person realistically expect the performance to be somewhat proportionate ?

Potential punters are hearing the R-Pi runs Quake as well as any PC, is perfect for HDMI streaming, outperforms the GPU in iPhone 4S by a factor of two, has an XBox 1 level of performance, and you can do many things you could on a PC, so in their minds it is perceived as being as capable as a desktop PC, just a whole lot cheaper. Most won't know the difference between GPU and CPU nor should they be expected to.

If punters have misplaced expectations we should perhaps ask how that's coming about and address the issue, not simply criticising them for having them.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Thu May 10, 2012 11:59 am

JamesH said:


KeithSloan said:


Well I for one could well have ordered a Pi expecting more. I was initially put off by the need for an HDMI TV (or DVI) for decent video so did not rush to buy.  It was much much later that I read how slow it might be i.e. Pentium III

The FAQ still has this as its first entry

"INTRODUCTION

What’s a Raspberry Pi?

The Raspberry Pi is a credit-card sized computer that plugs into your TV and a keyboard. It’s a capable little PC which can be used for many of the things that your desktop PC does, like spreadsheets, word-processing and games. It also plays high-definition video. We want to see it being used by kids all over the world to learn programming."

"It’s a capable little PC which can be used for many of the things that your desktop PC does, like spreadsheets, word-processing and games" Hardly sets the correct level of expectation in my opinion. I would not be surprised if a number of people are disappointed when they get their hands on the Pi and that bambozled is not the only one.


Nothing in that paragraph though is untrue. It can do spreadsheets, word processing, games and hi-def video. Not to the same level at your £300 desktop/laptop (except the video, which is probably better) - as you might expect for something that costs 1/10th of the price.


It took me 5 seconds to find this:

http://lightlinux.blogspot.co......linux.html


Spreadsheets for Linux

 
There are three modern and usable spreadsheet applications for Linux. OpenOffice.Org, KSpread for KDE users and Gnumeric for the users of GNOME.

If you are looking for a lightweight alternative for OpenOffice.Org you probably should try KSpread and Gnumeric. Both of them are lightweight enough if your hardware can reasonably be used with KDE or GNOME.

In addition, there are some older spreadsheets like Siag and Oleo that might satisfy your needs. I would, however, recommend either Gnumeric and KSpread to be used as a lightweight alternative to OpenOffice if you are using the spreadsheet for any half-way serious calculations


Kspread is available under Debian. I have no idea what it's like but it's definitely a spreadsheet.  Maybe people are reading:

"It’s a capable little PC which can be used for many of the things that your desktop PC does, like spreadsheets, word-processing and games"

as:

"It’s a capable little PC which can be used for many of the things that your desktop PC does like run Office 2010 and Call of Duty: Black Ops II"

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Thu May 10, 2012 12:11 pm

nmcc said:


It"s a $35 computer. Mostly, they are 10 times the price. What the hell can any right thinking person realistically expect?????


nmcc I agree 100%.  This is a great bit of kit.  Spend some time and effort , read around the subject and stretch your mind.

The purpose of the machine is to learn how to programme.  We have far too many people who can use applications without knowing how they work.

We need "mechanics" as we have loads of drivers already.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Thu May 10, 2012 12:27 pm

Re #149:

Totally agree that the purpose of the device should be to learn to program - to be a mechanic as you put it - rather than to web surf.  This fits in with the idea that I put forth in another post - that the machine should not ship with a GUI at all.  It should be command line (+ simple graphics, i.e., SVGAlib), not X with a Microsoft Windows-like GUI.

Don't worry about this, though.  It will never happen.  Too many people are firmly convinced that you absolutely, positively have to have a Microsoft Windows-like GUI in order to have any kind of sellable product in 2012.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

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