dom
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sat May 05, 2012 7:47 pm

If it is *really* slow, it"s possibly an sdcard issue. Check dmesg log for any sdcard errors.
I think after an error it halves the sdcard clock (possibly more than once).
But being somewhat slow is to be expected.

antiloquax
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sat May 05, 2012 9:11 pm

I haven"t got my pi yet, but I have been using the Debian and Arch releases in qemu. Arch is a lot faster. I ran glxgears in both and the Debian only managed 9.5 fps, whereas Arch was over 16. I assume that the differences will be silmilar on the actual machine. Of course, Arch is a bit more difficult for a beginner. But the Arch wiki is excellent and has all the information you need.

dom
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sat May 05, 2012 10:01 pm

Agreed, Arch is faster on real hardware too.

cashaw
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sat May 05, 2012 10:45 pm


No, where has the foundation ever said that this is a developers release? Perhaps the communication has been wrong ? Perhaps people expectations could have been better set ?

I fully understand what the Rpi is and fully support this, but in the absolute beginners section of the forum, there needs to be a bit more patience than what is demonstrated in this thread.

The normal excuse of "it"s a developers release and it will all get better…" is rubbish. I am sure improvements will be made but at the end of the day it is a $35 board running on an underpowered processor, it is never going to emulate your latest phone or laptop.

I am waiting for my Rpi (25th of this month, fingers crossed..) but I know what I am expecting and that is not a laptop replacement, but I plan to work on some webcam and streaming applications initially.

I have worked with Linux for years, I always find it difficult. Especially when I have spent days getting something to work and then a year later trying to go back and figure out how I made it work. Linux is not intuative. Although there are plenty of experts on this forum, as this section is for absolute beginners, then can"t we have a little patience for those who are not fully aware of the boards capabilities and may not be experts in Linux ?

The OP's comments and initial impressions are just as valid as one one else's on here. I think they help to set the expectations to those of us outside the Linux expert realm.


Max

Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 12:26 am



I try the BBC websit - Success! Well, after a fashion. Apparently I need to install Flash. So I click the link and Adobe obligingly provides me with the Linux Flash. For Firefox. Only.


You will need to install Flash if you want to watch video. For everything else Midori is absolutely fine.



Don't know about the BBC, but quite a few sites do have Flashless HTML5 <video> files hidden under their counter for iPad users.

Not sure if faking the user-agent string would be enough to receive them, or that they do Javascript or other checks.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 1:54 am

I am sorry if people thought I was "jumping down the throat" of @bamboozled. I was trying to be polite, agreed with some points and tried to offer a considered response. Rereading my response I still can't see it otherwise.

The Pi will not suit everyones requirements so it does make sense just to sell it and move on if you really wanted something to watch videos on the BBC web site. It doesn't come as a surprise to anyone that has done their homework that you can not run Flash or that web browsers run slowly.

This speed isn't a deficiency of the device. It is an engineering tradeoff because without it we wouldn't have the price. The foundation wanted a device cheaper than a textbook for students to get their hands dirty with programming and the Pi is fast enough and the right price. If @bamboozled had complained that the sound wasn't working in Scratch or that Python was missing some useful libraries it would have been a more interesting post.

The first thing a student is going to do is run a python snake program, not go to the Beeb to watch videos.

I am particularly concerned about the user friendliness. I have been using linux for 20 years and am very comfortable on the command line but I think a lot more can be done to improve the boot, remove the login and make customisation easier. My response was very similar to @bamboozled. Many of the changes I think would help are very easy to make. I think it is unlikely that the current way to setup and use a Pi will be the only choice by the time the education release occurs.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 2:40 am

Well, it has been said before, because its true, but this first batch is exactly meant to get the thing in the hands of the developers, so that in half a year or so something more suitable to kids (or angry young men) will evolve, in the form of the educational release.

so far we have seen many dramatical changes, (such as the change from Fedora being the "official distro" to Debian, when it became apparent that Fedora would not cut it)  and also some nasty initial problems such as (still) not having accelerated (2D) graphics and no working sound system.

An informed person should know to write these off as "birthing problems".

That doesn't mean we should not take critiques as valid, but in this case it not what is said, but how its said that make people react this way.

In this case it seems someone has made a bad purchase, perhaps based on wishful thinking and lack of judgement. So be it.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 6:39 am

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I would like to point out that it is irritating to see people complaining here when many of us could make use of a Pi for something more reasonable and yet there are hordes of people that got one just to say they have one or to sell it (even though I thought the foundation was to have some on e-bay to prevent this) and the rest of us wait to make something useful while we see these types of threads show up.  It's irritating and disgusting me more every day.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 7:31 am

I agree, but that's life and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Ironically, these people must have been sat with their fingers on the reload button @ 0600 on Pi day and so I would have assumed they would have known and been excited enough to know what they were getting into.

I arrived on the webpage 45 minutes later and I will need to wait until the end of May to get mine.

The thing about developers release was only in the minds of those who believe they are developers and should get one first, I think those people who can contribute most to the initial startup have already received their Pi's. There's a large amount of that initial 10000 batch which seem to have gone missing, I am sure a large number were allocated to those who could add most to the foundations aims.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 7:39 am

dcdevito said:


Hmmmm, someone may be exagerating. My Pi is no where near as fast as my MacBook Pro but then it cost 50 times less. It's not 50 times slower that's for sure.

Ummm...I beg to differ.


If I push my MacBook past it's reasonable limits (opening a pile of really big tifs in PhotoShop for instance) usually brings it to it's knees. But it's day to day operations for which it is designed are fine.

If I push my Pi past it's reasonable limits (opening two/three JavaScript intensive web sites for instance) usually brings it to its knees. But it's day to day operations for which it is designed are fine.

It is not possible to treat the Pi like it's your x86 multi-core multi-Gb HD monster because it's not the same. Realistic expectations are, well, expected.

Is the Pi a desktop replacement - almost but not really. Is it fit for purpose (education, exploration, experimentation), yes.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 9:31 am

cashaw said:


The thing about developers release was only in the minds of those who believe they are developers and should get one first


ORLY?

Until RS and Farnell said otherwise, and that it needed certification, the Pi board as currently shipped was 100% intended as a "developer board". Don't believe me?

The initial release was always intended "for developers".  Ship a limited number of boards out to a (largely) developer community, bash out the bugs, get the software and support packages for education developed, and then go for the "educational" launch. I'd go and search out some comments from the "we hope to be shipping at the end of this month" period (August->December last year), but I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

Unfortunately (for the educational release), the whole damn thing went viral, which has led to a number of issues:


There was a mass rush for orders, a charge largely led by people who haven't been following the project and didn't / don't know exactly what to expect.  The OP in this thread is (sadly for people Like Jessie) a mere taster of what is to come.
That mass rush meant that 10,000 development boards suddenly became half a million orders, and the whole shooting match got stopped until certification was done.  That, as much as anything else, has torpedoed the educational launch for this year, as far as I can tell.
Most of the developers I know, and a large number of the people who've been on this forum since it started, still don't have Pi boards in their hands.  


I think those people who can contribute most to the initial startup have already received their Pi's.


I don't share your optimism. The "largely developer" community of maybe 500 forum members who were here in August is now nearly 17,000.  So, instead of being the major part of a project that wasn't even sure it could sell the initial run of 10,000 boards, the "old hands" are now ~3% of those who've bothered to register on the forums.  Probably less than 1 in 10 of those members are actual developers.

I'm in email contact with a number of other developers who are intending to do interesting, education-related stuff with the Pi, and a number of others who are working on optimisation.  None of us have Pis in our hands (that I know of) and distance Pi-sharing is likely to be the rule rather than the exception for some time to come.

Simon

Max

Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 10:27 am

cashaw said:


The thing about developers release was only in the minds of those who believe they are developers and should get one first, I think those people who can contribute most to the initial startup have already received their Pi's. There's a large amount of that initial 10000 batch which seem to have gone missing, I am sure a large number were allocated to those who could add most to the foundations aims.


Actually, there is currently some complaining on the Qt on Pi developer list.

If you are verified developer, and have been allocated a board, you are asked to e-mail your address details, but nobody seems to have gotten a confirmation or anything since.

While it may be ungrateful to complain about that, it is still kinda frustrating to read that journalists do get them, some people even got two, and others are doing good business on eBay.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 11:44 am

I am pretty sure if you are a developer and you ask the foundation nicely, you can get your hands on a Raspberry Pi early, Hexxeh did this a few weeks ago and got his Pi within a few weeks of asking (bearing in mind he asked a few months ago now).

See this thread, scroll down to Hexxehs posts:

http://www.facepunch.com/threa.....1160549/16

Bearing in mind hexxeh is a developer, he is the creator of Chromium OS (http://chromeos.hexxeh.net/) and is currently creating a automatic firmware updater for the Pi (http://hexxeh.net/).

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nick.mccloud
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 3:20 pm

ThePunisher1024 said:


I am pretty sure if you are a developer

- snip -

Bearing in mind hexxeh is a developer, he is the creator of Chromium OS (http://chromeos.hexxeh.net/) and is currently creating a automatic firmware updater for the Pi (http://hexxeh.net/).


Just in case anyone things that being able to type make && make install qualifies for developer status I suspect the Foundation are looking for a long standing public track record of contribution to the open source community! See example above!

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 4:03 pm

dcdevito said:


bamboozled said:


Ah. Abuse. Thanks, guys. A couple of links might have been more helpful...

Yes, I have watched a couple of the introductory videos. None seemed to make any sense, and you can"t read any of the text on the screen anyway. I believe videos are far less useful than text: I can speed-read, but you can"t do that with videos.


Don't sweat it - I'm with you. I too am greatly disappointed on how SLOW this thing is. I watched videos of this thing running fedora remix and it ran 100% faster than mine (which is also running Remix).

As for the screen resolution, Fedora Remix upscales it perfectly to 1080, but is actually slower than Debian Squeeze (imagine that). So I'd stick with that for now. I'm waiting for someone to port XMBC to this thing or it will be thrown in the tech pile o junk.

2012 was supposed to be the year of the Pi, instead it's the year we got duped into buying the Pi. What a waste.



Would you care to expand on that last paragraph? You have received exactly what was offered - it's hardly the Foundations fault if you didn't research what you were getting. Why do you think you were duped, and why do you think it's a waste?
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Max

Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 4:28 pm

nmcc said:


ThePunisher1024 said:


I am pretty sure if you are a developer

- snip -

Bearing in mind hexxeh is a developer, he is the creator of Chromium OS (http://chromeos.hexxeh.net/) and is currently creating a automatic firmware updater for the Pi (http://hexxeh.net/).


Just in case anyone things that being able to type make && make install qualifies for developer status I suspect the Foundation are looking for a long standing public track record of contribution to the open source community! See example above!


Your comment can be taken the wrong way.

Be aware that it is Google"s development team that created Chromium OS ( http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os )

And it is Hexxeh that does the "make && zip" for folks that do not know how to compile it themselves.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 4:37 pm

I think hexxah does slightly more that make&zip..
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 5:30 pm

tufty said:


cashaw said:


The thing about developers release was only in the minds of those who believe they are developers and should get one first


ORLY?

Until RS and Farnell said otherwise, and that it needed certification, the Pi board as currently shipped was 100% intended as a "developer board". Don't believe me?

The initial release was always intended "for developers".


True, everyone kept saying the first batch and initial release was for developers, keeps saying it is for developers, but the reality is that the board was launched and put on sale to the general public ( bar the 500 reserved for Qt developers and a few others ).

The first delivery of production R-Pi went to school children in Leeds who could only tenuously be called developers ( and at least one put theirs straight on to eBay as of no interest to themselves ) but then the term "developer" does seem fairly flexible.

It would be ironic if the OP were one of those kids; "Yes, we know we handed it to you, but you weren't the intended audience for what we handed out".

Max

Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 5:42 pm

JamesH said:


I think hexxah does slightly more that make&zip..


Yes, I know he also creates modified builds with additional kernel modules and such.

I do agree that is useful work, and am not challenging the decision to hand him out a board early.

But I do believe statements like "he is the creator of Chromium OS" and suggestions that everyone that doesn't have a board by now must be a lesser developer are a bit misplaced. Especially when it is known that 326 developers that have been allocated a Pi, have not received them yet.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 6:28 pm

Max said:





JamesH said:


I think hexxah does slightly more that make&zip..


Yes, I know he also creates modified builds with additional kernel modules and such.

I do agree that is useful work, and am not challenging the decision to hand him out a board early.

But I do believe statements like "he is the creator of Chromium OS" and suggestions that everyone that doesn't have a board by now must be a lesser developer are a bit misplaced. Especially when it is known that 326 developers that have been allocated a Pi, have not received them yet.


Sorry, where does that 326 number come from?
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 6:50 pm

My guess is that it"s the qt guys & gals.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 7:00 pm

Yes it runs Linux and has the processing power of a 15 year old desktop machine (albeit with fancy graphics) but unfriendly - NO!.

Once I had sorted the overscan issue (thanks to dom for the quick reply and the the Admin for moving my misplaced post) my Pi performs exactly as expected.

My six year old daughter is amazed that something so small can do so much. She spent ages pointing out the components to my dad yesterday ("brain", memory card, connectors etc...) and we spent a happy hour playing with Scratch today. Nothing we could not have done on her laptop which runs XUbuntu but it is more real when you can see all the components - and that is the point of it.

What am I going to use mine for? To play with. I aim to use the GPIO pins to interface with train set controllers and Meccano robots, just as I did with the user port on my BBC Model B. From the interest she showed in Scratch I am sure my daughter will be fascinated to see a Python script control a robot or some other toy. This may or may not lead further but at least will give her an appreciation of how things work.

Max

Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 7:15 pm

JamesH said:


Sorry, where does that 326 number come from?



Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, developers that were accepted as part of the Qt on Pi program were told to e-mail their postal address details (to a @rasperrybi.org e-mail address).

And so far haven't received a Pi, or any other form of confirmation or reply yet.

I took the liberty of assuming that goes for all 326 developers listed based on 0 mailing list reports that people received their Pi, versus 3 complaints (here, here and here).

If that's not the case and we are the only 4 whose Pi got delayed I stand corrected

(But I doubt that. More likely that we are the only folks rude enough to complain )

Would appreciate if you guys at least let us know something about an ETA. Even if it was bad news, like that it would take another month. Nothing worse than silence.

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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 9:30 pm

Sorry, don't know the answer to that, but I'm thinking that a quantity that size is going to come out of the main production runs rather than the first 10k batch.

Yes, they are developers, but the foundation needed to spread their initial allocation a little more widely that blowing the whole budget on 400 QT devs.

I'll see if I can find out what the plan is with this stuff. Eben and Liz have been OoO for a week, and quite busy.
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Re: First impressions - Slow, Scary & unfriendly

Sun May 06, 2012 10:27 pm

bamboozled said:

 I am also a journalist who works for a national magazine in a technology field and will be putting something positive in print very shortly. even though the R-Pi is outside our normal remit.
I in no way intend to be offensive, but after reading the content of your original post, then getting as far as the post quoted above, it makes me very scared.

A journalist in the technology field that cannot understand the purpose of the RPI and its target audience, let alone doesn’t understand the need for security on a computer even if you are the only user. Yes, I get it the RPi is outside the normal remit of your audience for your magazine and in that case, nothing more than a press release would be needed.

I also wonder how you can put something positive in print judging by your initial experience along with the less than satisfactory welcome to the forums. In the defence of the posters, you more or less did the same as going into a daycare centre for kids, and saying in a loud voice in front of all the mothers, "damn, what an ugly bunch of kids you have in here."

To echo what others have said, this release of the RPi was a developers release, intended for the talented among us to polish off the edges of the RPi experience, so that the later final release of a complete and cased up version of the pi is let loose on the great unwashed.

Its a shame that your acquisition of a RPi deprived  a developer of getting his hands on a board to get some work done in improving the pi experience. Myself, I feel a little guilty for getting my hands on one so early as my skills are not up to what’s required to move the project along. What I am good at thou is beta testing other peoples work and writing tutorials.. I already have some good results from checking out the work done over at openELEC.

best thing to do is to either pass on your pi to someone that can make real use of it, or pack it up in the box it came in and place it in the cupboard for 6 months or so, then come back and take another look at what it CAN do...

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